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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 12 Jun 2018, 09:24

Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
It is now the Brexiters job to take the rest of the population with them to the sunlit uplands.[/quote]
Which would be made much easier to achieve and lead to a better outcome if the country presented a united front.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
To deliver on the promises.
And disprove the lies of Project Fear which also tried to hide the future of a federal Europe.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
To convince the people that they will be better off, that they were not in fact lied to.
Indeed they were but the Brexiters saw through them.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
It is not my fault that you have failed to convince me.
You have no intention of being convinced. Likewise, whatever you say you will not convince me either. No amount of waving your little flags and singing Ode to Joy will make me change my mind but if it makes you people happy then what's the problem.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
It is not the EU's fault that they are doing what they said they would right from the start.
Agreed. That is why I, along with millions of others, decided to vote to leave.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
You won, get on with it and stop blaming everyone else for the failure.
Not noticed anyone blaming anybody for anything. What has failed?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 12 Jun 2018, 10:31

Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
You won.
Thank you Jack. That is all I wished to hear.

Now all that we need is to be allowed to get on with it without attempts to derail the process by those less willing and generous than yourself to accept the democratic result.
Last edited by Mervyn and Trish on 12 Jun 2018, 10:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 12:26

Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
It is now the Brexiters job to take the rest of the population with them to the sunlit uplands.
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 09:24
Which would be made much easier to achieve and lead to a better outcome if the country presented a united front.
The country is not united. You may say I'm a dreamer .....
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
To deliver on the promises.
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 09:24
And disprove the lies of Project Fear which also tried to hide the future of a federal Europe.
I refer you to my post #511
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
To convince the people that they will be better off, that they were not in fact lied to.
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 09:24
Indeed they were but the Brexiters saw through them.
Brexiters only see what they want to see to uphold their fantasy.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
It is not my fault that you have failed to convince me.
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 09:24
You have no intention of being convinced. Likewise, whatever you say you will not convince me either. No amount of waving your little flags and singing Ode to Joy will make me change my mind but if it makes you people happy then what's the problem.
You only had to answer the simple question 'How will Brexit benefit the British people'. That might 'of' made me think, but as with all Brexiters, you couldn't."You people" and "if the country presented a united front" in the same post suggests it is the Brexiters who need to show some reconciliation, it's their responsibility to take the country forward, they won remember.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
It is not the EU's fault that they are doing what they said they would right from the start.
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 09:24
Agreed. That is why I, along with millions of others, decided to vote to leave.
Jack Staff wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 18:27
You won, get on with it and stop blaming everyone else for the failure.
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 09:24
Not noticed anyone blaming anybody for anything. What has failed?
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 10:31
Now all that we need is to be allowed to get on with it without attempts to derail the process by those less willing and generous than yourself to accept the democratic result.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 12:54

Friends of Lee tell me: Done on principle that he backs a meaningful vote, can’t back Government today.
Not a coordinated effort, but many ministers share general concerns re Brexit strategy.
Named a minister they think will follow soon.
Expectations of a leadership contest.
:Faisal Islam
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 12 Jun 2018, 16:43

I'm giving up on you Jack. If I told you the sea was wet you'd find a reason it wasn't.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 12 Jun 2018, 17:11

Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 12:54
Friends of Lee tell me: Done on principle that he backs a meaningful vote, can’t back Government today.
Not a coordinated effort, but many ministers share general concerns re Brexit strategy.
Named a minister they think will follow soon.
Expectations of a leadership contest.
:Faisal Islam
Jack, for goodness sake stop quoting BBC journalists, everyone knows they are remain in the EU central office, probably even Merv.
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 12 Jun 2018, 17:43

Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 12:26
it is the Brexiters who need to show some reconciliation, it's their responsibility to take the country forward, they won remember.
Well Jack, in one sentence you have demonstrated the arrogance of the Remain camp. It is not for the Brexiters to show any reconciliation. It is for the Remainers to accept the outcome of the vote, stop whingeing and back the country to get the best outcome they can instead of putting every obstacle in the way and then gloating because negotiations are not going as well as they should.
You must be extremely disappointed that MPs backed the EU Withdrawal Bill today. You will just have to wave your little flags a bit harder and sing up. :lol:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 18:24

towny44 wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 17:11
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 12:54
Friends of Lee tell me: Done on principle that he backs a meaningful vote, can’t back Government today.
Not a coordinated effort, but many ministers share general concerns re Brexit strategy.
Named a minister they think will follow soon.
Expectations of a leadership contest.
:Faisal Islam
Jack, for goodness sake stop quoting BBC journalists, everyone knows they are remain in the EU central office, probably even Merv.
I didn't.

He's from Sky.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 12 Jun 2018, 18:28

oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 17:43
MPs backed the EU Withdrawal Bill today.
Really :?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 18:48

oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 17:43
You must be extremely disappointed that MPs backed the EU Withdrawal Bill today. You will just have to wave your little flags a bit harder and sing up. :lol:
"Theresa May has won today's Brexit battle but may have lost the war."

"In other words, one of her favourite catchphrases - that no deal is better than a bad deal - is dead.
And that will be official in just a few days, when the bill returns to the Lords."

https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/

(John please note, he works for ITV)
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 12 Jun 2018, 19:43

Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 18:48
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 17:43
You must be extremely disappointed that MPs backed the EU Withdrawal Bill today. You will just have to wave your little flags a bit harder and sing up. :lol:
"Theresa May has won today's Brexit battle but may have lost the war."

"In other words, one of her favourite catchphrases - that no deal is better than a bad deal - is dead.
And that will be official in just a few days, when the bill returns to the Lords."

https://www.facebook.com/pestonitv/

(John please note, he works for ITV)
So Brexit won the day.........................and Remain won the day too. How lovely!!!

More from Peston on the matter............ Makes a change from 'they didn't understand', 'they are all racist xenophobes' etc etc ad nauseum followed by foot stamping. At last a Remainer who makes an attempt to understand what happened and why. Anna Soubry & Co take note.
He speaks a lot of sense.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 19:56

oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 19:43
So Brexit won the day.........................and Remain won the day too. How lovely!!!

More from Peston on the matter............ Makes a change from 'they didn't understand', 'they are all racist xenophobes' etc etc ad nauseum followed by foot stamping. At last a Remainer who makes an attempt to understand what happened and why. Anna Soubry & Co take note.
He speaks a lot of sense.
You had to search for that! nyebevannews? Surely, that's way off your patch, and to go back six months, well done, top marks for effort. {/patronisemode}
He does indeed speak sense:
"I’m not saying Brexit will be this wonderful thing. Im saying Brexit was the only opportunity millions of people have to say to the people who run this place, ‘you’re not listening to us’."
Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country'
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 12 Jun 2018, 21:15

Your arrogance knows no bounds to dismiss something simply because it was said six months ago. What he said is still as relevant today as it was then but you choose to make a cheap comment. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 19:56
Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country'
Well if that's what you say, Jack, that must be gospel then. :lolno: :roll:
Last edited by oldbluefox on 12 Jun 2018, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 21:35

oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:15
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 19:56
Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country'
Well if that's what you say, Jack, that must be gospel then. :lolno: :roll:
Peston said "...the people who run this place, ‘you’re not listening to us"
So much as I appreciate your 'faith' in me, I must defer to Peston.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 21:51

oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:15
Your arrogance knows no bounds to dismiss something simply because it was said six months ago. What he said is still as relevant today as it was then but you choose to make a cheap comment. :clap: :clap: :clap:
If we're on the subject of cheap comments you forgot deluded/paranoid/leftie ...

I suggest we draw a line.
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 12 Jun 2018, 21:55

Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:35
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:15
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 19:56
Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country'
Well if that's what you say, Jack, that must be gospel then. :lolno: :roll:
Peston said "...the people who run this place, ‘you’re not listening to us"
So much as I appreciate your 'faith' in me, I must defer to Peston.
The Brexiters must have been happy under the Labour party and it only happened under the Tories. Is that what you are saying? I don't think Peston was referring to any one party in particular but to politicians in particular. For example the north/south divide did not develop under the Tories but under successive governments and Brexit developed as a consequence of inequality. At least that's how I understand him but clearly you have your own take on this as in "Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country" which is at odds with what Peston was saying.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 12 Jun 2018, 22:47

oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:55
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:35
oldbluefox wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 21:15
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 19:56
Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country'
Well if that's what you say, Jack, that must be gospel then. :lolno: :roll:
Peston said "...the people who run this place, ‘you’re not listening to us"
So much as I appreciate your 'faith' in me, I must defer to Peston.
The Brexiters must have been happy under the Labour party and it only happened under the Tories. Is that what you are saying? I don't think Peston was referring to any one party in particular but to politicians in particular. For example the north/south divide did not develop under the Tories but under successive governments and Brexit developed as a consequence of inequality. At least that's how I understand him but clearly you have your own take on this as in "Or as I would say 'This Conservative government doesn't listen to the country" which is at odds with what Peston was saying.
We are actually in total agreement, I think.
The problem stems from the London centric polices of consecutive British governments.
North/South divide is a prime example, but I would suggest it is more a distance 'thing', there is not a divide, it just gets worse the further outside the M25 you are.
I have no idea how the Brexiters were feeling under Labour as they are two groups I have no knowledge of, perhaps they just had no voice at the time. Certainly I recall that John Major had a lot of problems beforehand. As Brexit has always been a problem in the Conservative party, Cameron’s attempt to solve it simply spread it population wide. Fuelled by inequality as you say.

My comment "This Conservative Government..." is because they let this débâcle blow up on their watch, when Con/Lib, Lab, Con previously managed to keep the country on track.
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 13 Jun 2018, 08:44

Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 22:47
We are actually in total agreement, I think.
The problem stems from the London centric polices of consecutive British governments.
North/South divide is a prime example, but I would suggest it is more a distance 'thing', there is not a divide, it just gets worse the further outside the M25 you are.
I agree with most of this. Some cities outside London have done very well from the EU and this was reflected in the referendum results but by and large I agree the issues get worse the further outside the M25 you get.
Jack Staff wrote:
12 Jun 2018, 22:47
I have no idea how the Brexiters were feeling under Labour as they are two groups I have no knowledge of, perhaps they just had no voice at the time. Certainly I recall that John Major had a lot of problems beforehand. As Brexit has always been a problem in the Conservative party, Cameron’s attempt to solve it simply spread it population wide. Fuelled by inequality as you say.

My comment "This Conservative Government..." is because they let this débâcle blow up on their watch, when Con/Lib, Lab, Con previously managed to keep the country on track.
My first recollections of disquiet probably came from the Thatcher era where large swathes of the country which had previously relied on manufacturing industry found their livelihoods taken away and not replaced by anything. (Rightly or wrongly she had reasons but that's for another day!!). Then we had Major who blundered along with his rights (without responsibilities) initiatives whilst simultaneously signing away more to the EU.
Then we had Blair who acknowledged there was disquiet amongst the population about the EU and, in his manifesto, promised a vote on the issue which he reneged on. Later Brown took the reins and signed the Lisbon Treaty, thereby negating the need for a vote.
Cameron was aware of the rise by now of the UKIP party which was gathering momentum on a platform of getting us out of the EU and realised one way of getting into power was to appease the anti-EU movement by offering a referendum, confidently believing (in my opinion) the country would return a No vote. He went on a mission to the rest of the EU countries to gain concessions which would strengthen his hand in the referendum and returned with precisely nothing. The rest is history.
Disquiet with Brexit has developed over decades and, as Peston said, came about because politicians of the day did not listen. They tried to brush it under the carpet so there is a collective responsibility for all the major parties who closed their ears and did nothing. Is it any wonder that many Brexiters throughout the land feel cheated, betrayed, so long ignored and hold such strong views whilst their own communities suffer.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 13 Jun 2018, 13:30

I am in complete agreement with the general direction of your post.

Where I'm sure we will differ is on you last paragraph.
oldbluefox wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 08:44
Disquiet with Brexit has developed over decades and, as Peston said, came about because politicians of the day did not listen. They tried to brush it under the carpet so there is a collective responsibility for all the major parties who closed their ears and did nothing. Is it any wonder that many Brexiters throughout the land feel cheated, betrayed, so long ignored and hold such strong views whilst their own communities suffer.
While I agree entirely with what you have written, I see little if any EU input into the situation. It was the British "politicians of the day" who "did not listen" and brush it under the carpet and did nothing.

The people (not just Brexiters) have every right to feel cheated and betrayed whilst their communities suffer. I know I do.

These incompetent British politicians (of any colour, of the last 40 years or so) know they are incompetent. They needed someone/something to blame, and Europe was the easy answer.

I am not saying that the EU was/is perfect, far from it, just that they have copped the blame for the failings of Westminster.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 13 Jun 2018, 14:33

Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.

It became therefore a talking shop and one whose Members did not need to accept any personal responsibility. They just played mind games and pass the parcel. Nice work if you can get it but the day of reckoning, post a satisfactory Brexit, is rapidly approaching.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 13 Jun 2018, 15:13

Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.
If that were true the EU would not have allowed the Brexit vote.
Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
It became therefore a talking shop and one whose Members did not need to accept any personal responsibility. They just played mind games and pass the parcel. Nice work if you can get it but the day of reckoning, post Article 50 retraction, is rapidly approaching.
Fixed it for you!
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 13 Jun 2018, 17:23

Jack Staff wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 15:13
Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.
If that were true the EU would not have allowed the Brexit vote.
Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
It became therefore a talking shop and one whose Members did not need to accept any personal responsibility. They just played mind games and pass the parcel. Nice work if you can get it but the day of reckoning, post Article 50 retraction, is rapidly approaching.
Fixed it for you!
To even consider the possibility that the EU could prevent my idea of a free UK having a referendum is a gross violation of the rights of that Country … it was so nice of them to allow it don'tcha think ?

No the real power, the ability to control our own destiny, was NOT in our hands … hence the No vote.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 13 Jun 2018, 17:37

Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.
Which treaties? What was given away?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 14 Jun 2018, 08:53

I posted, you responded … fine but I have no need to go round in circles just to prove nothing.

:wave:

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 14 Jun 2018, 09:08

Jack Staff wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 17:37
Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.
Which treaties? What was given away?
My grand Nephew has just finished his politics and business degree at Bath, and his final thesis was on the Brexit referendum. He tells me that Maastricht was the defining treaty that lost us, and all others, their vetos, and started the EU on the final leg of its ultimate aim of a federal europe. He believes that if the Tories had not stabbed Maggie in the back that she, and therefore the UK Govt. would never have agreed to sign this treaty, but we will never know if this would have happened and what the outcome would then have been.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Jun 2018, 09:43

towny44 wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 09:08
Jack Staff wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 17:37
Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.
Which treaties? What was given away?
My grand Nephew has just finished his politics and business degree at Bath, and his final thesis was on the Brexit referendum. He tells me that Maastricht was the defining treaty that lost us, and all others, their vetos, and started the EU on the final leg of its ultimate aim of a federal europe. He believes that if the Tories had not stabbed Maggie in the back that she, and therefore the UK Govt. would never have agreed to sign this treaty, but we will never know if this would have happened and what the outcome would then have been.
I understand the point under discussion here is that 'HMG had no power to solve it's own problems' (or something close).

"Obviously, the EU does not get involved in all legislation.
Parliament retains control over the fundamental decisions: how much of our income is directly taxed, how much of that money is spent on welfare, health and education, how our streets and borders are policed, when and where our armed forces go to war, what our foreign policy is towards the rest of the world, and so on.

And if the UK does co-operate with the EU on any of these issues, it is voluntary and the government can either veto a proposal or choose not to take part.

UK opt-outs?
The UK has opted out of some EU laws and agreements, including economic and monetary union (the euro), the border-free Schengen zone, the charter of fundamental rights, and some security and justice issues."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36247456 A BBC article from back when it was trying to put both sides.

Your grand Nephew will know Dr Galpin then, a friend of ours.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 Jun 2018, 10:09

I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 14 Jun 2018, 10:26

Jack Staff wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 09:43
towny44 wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 09:08
Jack Staff wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 17:37
Manoverboard wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:33
Westminster had no real power, it had been given away in ongoing Treaties.
Which treaties? What was given away?
My grand Nephew has just finished his politics and business degree at Bath, and his final thesis was on the Brexit referendum. He tells me that Maastricht was the defining treaty that lost us, and all others, their vetos, and started the EU on the final leg of its ultimate aim of a federal europe. He believes that if the Tories had not stabbed Maggie in the back that she, and therefore the UK Govt. would never have agreed to sign this treaty, but we will never know if this would have happened and what the outcome would then have been.
I understand the point under discussion here is that 'HMG had no power to solve it's own problems' (or something close).
Not really, you're missing the point as usual, I am not concerned about UK opt outs or whether any specific EU regulation is injurious to the the UK. The main concern I have is that the major influential countries in the EU and by inference the Euro zone are, of necessity, becoming increasingly concerned about the state of the economies in the Euro zone, to the exclusion of fringe economies like ours. This is no criticism but just a statement of the current and forward reality, which was the main reason for my no vote.
The EU no longer represents the best interests of the UK, IMO of course, therefore we would be better off out of it before the concerns for the Euro make EU decision making even more divorced from our interests.
But I do accept your right to disagree, I just wish you offered me the same courtesy.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Jun 2018, 10:29

Ray Scully wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:09
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground
"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p***ed off with you when they hit the ground."

Professor Brian Cox
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 Jun 2018, 10:57

Jack Staff wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:29
Ray Scully wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:09
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground
"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p***ed off with you when they hit the ground."

Professor Brian Cox
OOP! some of my text was missing
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of the catastrophic result, this will bring about the fall of the Conservative Party, most probably their total demise and we will then hopefully be able to have a more representative government mirroring the views and aspirations of the middleground.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 14 Jun 2018, 11:04

Ray Scully wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:57
Jack Staff wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:29
Ray Scully wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 10:09
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of ground
"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p***ed off with you when they hit the ground."

Professor Brian Cox
OOP! some of my text was missing
I have now come down off the fence, my position now is a hard Brexit with no agreement, border or otherwise and no payments of any kind to the EU
Why? because of the catastrophic result, this will bring about the fall of the Conservative Party, most probably their total demise and we will then hopefully be able to have a more representative government mirroring the views and aspirations of the middleground.
We currently have no middle ground parties, Corbyn's Labour is akin to communism and Cable's Liberals also hold fairly left wing views. You must be you hoping for a new party to arise from the ashes, but if it was EU supporting its hardly likely to be representative of the majority in the country.
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Jack Staff
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Jun 2018, 11:08

I don't think the Conservatives can come back from this whatever happens.
I have doubts about Labour too.
Could be a new party on the cards, fronted by a former Labour leadership candidate anna Conservative - just rumours atm.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 Jun 2018, 12:09

Well after the last two days of stalemate in Parliament between the ideologues and pragmatists and those just voting to keep their job as MP's
as my mother would say "it will all end in tears"
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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 14 Jun 2018, 15:56

Jack Staff wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 11:08
I don't think the Conservatives can come back from this whatever happens.
I have doubts about Labour too.
Could be a new party on the cards, fronted by a former Labour leadership candidate anna Conservative - just rumours atm.
Suggestions that both the Tories and Labour are finished have been made many times in the past, and yet they make more comebacks than status quo. In fact most 2 party democracies switch back and forth regularly and new parties very rarely succeed in creating a sustainable presence and rarely make any impact on government.
Wishful thinking again on your part Jack.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Jun 2018, 16:22

towny44 wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 15:56
Jack Staff wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 11:08
I don't think the Conservatives can come back from this whatever happens.
I have doubts about Labour too.
Could be a new party on the cards, fronted by a former Labour leadership candidate anna Conservative - just rumours atm.
Suggestions that both the Tories and Labour are finished have been made many times in the past, and yet they make more comebacks than status quo.
:lol: :clap:
towny44 wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 15:56
In fact most 2 party democracies switch back and forth regularly and new parties very rarely succeed in creating a sustainable presence and rarely make any impact on government.
Though not sustainable, UKIP did make an impact. I have to agree, even they took 20 years to get nowhere.
towny44 wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 15:56
Wishful thinking again on your part Jack.
Maybe, but not on my part, just a rumour I'm hearing.
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 Jun 2018, 16:57

With remainer Teresa running one party and leaver Jezza running the other it's amazing that the Lib dems are not doing better. Vince Cable has convinced himself that the vast majority agree with him. Let's see if they pick up any votes in staunch remainer land of Lewisham today in the by election.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Jun 2018, 18:07

barney wrote:
14 Jun 2018, 16:57
With remainer Teresa running one party and leaver Jezza running the other it's amazing that the Lib dems are not doing better. Vince Cable has convinced himself that the vast majority agree with him. Let's see if they pick up any votes in staunch remainer land of Lewisham today in the by election.
I doubt it. It's much more Labour land than anything.
If Corbyn doesn't deliver a thumping win it could have interesting repercussions. (last time 21K maj. 67.9%)
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 Jun 2018, 09:27

As expected, a Labour win with the Libdems coming in second, pushing the Conservatives out to third.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... y-lib-dems
A much reduced majority of only 5K but still a clear win with 50% of the vote

The baffling statistic is a turnout of only 33%
Seven in ten could not be bothered to walk down the road to put a tick in a box.

Amazing !

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 15 Jun 2018, 09:52

By Remainer logic that translates as 67%+ did not vote for Labour. Should there be another vote? :sarcasm: :lol:
Maybe people are getting a little tired of the shenanigans currently going on in our political parties.
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 Jun 2018, 10:01

It's actually worse than that Foxy.

50% of the 33% who bothered voted Labour so they actually won with 16.5% of the eligible vote.
That's overwhelming in my book :lol:

That's the sort of victory clamed by UK MEPs. The turnout for that is always around 30%

Mind you, that is brilliant when compared to Slovakia's 13% turnout.
Ironically, the only country with a consistent high turn out for EU elections is ……. Belgium.
Vested interest ???????

The EU average is around 40% turnout which again tells us that 6 in 10 are not really bothered.
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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 15 Jun 2018, 11:07

I think that all elections should require 50% + 1 of the electorate in order to be elected. That should reduce the numbers at Westminster dramatically! Might even get some decisions made!!
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 15 Jun 2018, 14:43

Anyone not voting should be clearly tattooed on the forehead so they can be identified when they are demonstrating against the result!

Unless they have a note from their Mum!

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 Jun 2018, 16:25

It doesn't really seem to matter much these days Merv.

As the blonde lady on Question Time pointed out to Dominic Grieve, he stood as a Conservative on the Conservative manifesto of leaving the EU, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union, then immediately after the election, started plotting with a couple of others on how to stop the whole thing.

I can sort of understand how an MP representing a remain constituency would agitate, but if their voters elected to leave the EU, then that is rank hypocrisy . They should resign the whip and stand as independents.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 18 Jun 2018, 10:11

What was Mrs May's motive in drawing attention to the uncertainty of a Brexit dividend by suggesting that it would form part of the additional funding for the NHS

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 18 Jun 2018, 12:34

She didn't wish to suggest that ALL of the savings would go into the NHS, nor indeed that any money would be provided without reform of the NHS …. seeemples. :wave:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 18 Jun 2018, 14:46

Ray Scully wrote:
18 Jun 2018, 10:11
What was Mrs May's motive in drawing attention to the uncertainty of a Brexit dividend by suggesting that it would form part of the additional funding for the NHS
Because even she is beginning to realise the possibility of a Peoples Vote is now increasing, so is introducing the idea that if you don't vote leave the NHS will suffer? Worked last time.
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 Jun 2018, 15:27

Hi Jack. Welcome back !

Jack, my old mate, the only one who can call a 'peoples vote' is the PM.

If we assume that May is unseated and doesn't lead the Tories at the next election, do you honestly think that her successor is going to call for another vote on the issue, pre general election in 2022?
That's just not going to happen, is it?

It would need both May and Jezza to be overthrown and replaced by staunch Remainers.

Even then, there would have to be a GE and the winner would need to get it through Parliament. As both parties stood on a leave ticket last time, that would mean a huge turnaround of opinion.

What we have is a very vocal minority, claiming to speak for the majority, a bit like UKIP in the very early days.
It took them twenty years to get anywhere.
Grieve, Soubry Woolastan et al claim that they have the numbers and the House behind them.
Maybe they should put up or shut up.

Is there seriously any evidence of a mood swing towards another referendum except in the Guardian and The Independent?
Any poll is really about how you form the question.
Q. do you think May is doing a good job?
A. overwhelmingly NO.
Q. would you prefer Corbyn?
A. overwhelmingly No.

If the answer was different, Labour would be many points ahead, but they are not.

As I've said previously, their best option is to form a new party who's manifesto is to re-join the EU.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 18 Jun 2018, 15:57

There is another aspect to all this …

Mrs May has stated that after Brexit money will flow into the NHS. So ….

To achieve this she will need to get a good deal at the EU negotiations and wider support during the lead up from within the House because without it the eventual deal may be poor and the NHS will potentially suffer as a consequence.

Labour will be forced therefore to support her in her quest to get a decent Brexit settlement if they are to avoid being blamed for the lower funding of the NHS.

Sounds like a cunning Baldrick plan to me.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 Jun 2018, 16:02

Sounds like a cunning Baldrick plan to me :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'd love to think that she was that bright Moby ;)


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 18 Jun 2018, 16:24

Hey what an a volte-facen U-turn or a flip-flop call it what you will, by Bojo today when asked about the Brexit dividend and £360 million a week for the NHS. Unfortunately it now appears that Bojo's hubris together with selfish ambition is going to cost us all.

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