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barney
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 10 Oct 2018, 17:13

Gill W wrote:
10 Oct 2018, 14:09
After three and a half weeks away on the lovely Aurora, my conclusion is that nothing has changed.

We are no closer to a 'deal' than when I went away.

Even if a 'deal' is struck, then it'd have to get through parliament, which doesn't seem to be a remote possibility.

Scanning the posts on this forum, I have noted that the atmosphere is becoming even more unpleasant.
welcome back Gill :thumbup:

little has changed in your absence :wtf:

hope that you had a wonder ful time

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 12 Oct 2018, 14:58

A great time thanks!

I will be doing a report soon
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 12 Oct 2018, 15:05

Nice one.
I look forward to it.
I love to read other's experiences.

Except Stephen's.
Got on, had a good time, got off ! :lol:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Stephen » 12 Oct 2018, 17:06

barney wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 15:05
Nice one.
I look forward to it.
I love to read other's experiences.

Except Stephen's.
Got on, had a good time, got off ! :lol:

I like it to be comprehensive :D

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 12 Oct 2018, 17:28

Stephen wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 17:06
barney wrote:
12 Oct 2018, 15:05
Nice one.
I look forward to it.
I love to read other's experiences.

Except Stephen's.
Got on, had a good time, got off ! :lol:

I like it to be comprehensive :D
I try to be Grammar School. 8-)
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 Oct 2018, 11:51

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 Oct 2018, 14:11

Foster is seriously racked off about this
quote below from Belfast Telegraph
“This backstop arrangement would not be temporary. It would be the permanent annexation of Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom and forever leave us subject to rules made in a place where we have no say,” wrote Foster.

How on earth the EU & Ireland think that this can be acceptable is beyond me.


Unless the EU reign it in, the DUP will bring down the Government and there will have to be a general election before Brexit.
I'd predict a hung parliament either way, and the UK will leave at the end of March with no agreement and no transition.

Maybe the Remain crew who have tried to derail the process at every stage will then be satisfied.
They will end up getting the exact opposite of what they wanted.
That is, the UK leaving the EU with no agreement.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 Oct 2018, 14:36

barney wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 14:11
Foster is seriously racked off about this
quote below from Belfast Telegraph
“This backstop arrangement would not be temporary. It would be the permanent annexation of Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom and forever leave us subject to rules made in a place where we have no say,” wrote Foster.

How on earth the EU & Ireland think that this can be acceptable is beyond me.


Unless the EU reign it in, the DUP will bring down the Government and there will have to be a general election before Brexit.
I'd predict a hung parliament either way, and the UK will leave at the end of March with no agreement and no transition.

Maybe the Remain crew who have tried to derail the process at every stage will then be satisfied.
They will end up getting the exact opposite of what they wanted.
That is, the UK leaving the EU with no agreement.
Priceless Barney old chap; :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Ray Scully on 13 Oct 2018, 14:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 Oct 2018, 15:02

Well, the question to ask yourself is would you tolerate a trade barrier between England and Wales or England and Scotland.
If the answer is no you wouldn't, then you cannot possibly think that this EU proposal is an acceptable idea.

It's as simple as that really.

With this idea, the EU are creating exactly what they say they want to avoid. That is a hard border on the island of Ireland, because no agreement is inevitable unless they come up with some weirdly worded fudge compromise.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 Oct 2018, 15:09

I can't understand why you blame the EU Barney. It is the UK leaving them. What a pity the difficulties and complexities were not discussed in a more open and honest manner prior to the referendum. Those who sold it as a walk in the park were either deceitful in the extreme or totally stupid.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 Oct 2018, 16:02

You won't get any argument from me Ray.
I don't blame the EU at all. They can ask for anything as long as us telling them to do one, doesn't offend their sensibilities.
This government have made a total pigs ear of it all, with indecision at every step.
It could have been so much easier with a committed leader.
May has bent with the wind in a pathetic effort to be all things to all people.

The position should have been that immediately after Article 50 was sent to Brussels, the UK should have been making all plans for leaving without agreement.
Everything necessary would now be in place and the EU would have been clear that is was irreversible.
Then , and only then should we have attempted to negotiate a trade agreement.

it is only very recently that the EU side have accepted the result.
Tusk said as much last week.
But, at least they have now.
Many in this country still seem to be under the illusion that we can somehow stay in, even though the vote was clearly to leave.
Some deluded souls calling for a 'peoples vote' seem to think that the outcome would be different. (who do they think voted last time ? dolphins?)
All polls show that there is nothing to choose between the two camps andit would be a very narrow stay, or a very narrow leave, so nothing changes.

All that can now happen is that we leave in March next year, with or without a trade agreement.

Even if there is a general election in the meantime, we will still leave because that is also Labour policy.
The only difference between the two is on what terms.
Labour favour staying in 'A' customs union whatever that means.

The only reason that we have had such complexities is because of very, very bad management and political agitators who cannot accept the legitimate result.
If May had concentrated on actually leaving as opposed to trying to do a deal, things would have far more clarity now.

Certain EU projects that are mutually beneficial could be negotiated.
Simply by asking questions.
But if they don't want us in, fine, we'll go it alone.
We are a rich nation and very cabable of standing on our own two feet.

Let's be honest.
If this result, which was the biggest vote in UK history, is allowed to be over turned by professional agitators with vested interests, then what is the point of ever have another vote, about anything ?
Last edited by barney on 13 Oct 2018, 16:11, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 Oct 2018, 16:19

Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.
Last edited by Ray Scully on 13 Oct 2018, 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 13 Oct 2018, 19:54

Ray Scully wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 16:19
Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.
Ray, what exactly are you trying to say? Seems to me that you are so annoyed with the referendum result that your mouth is running away with you.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 Oct 2018, 21:03

towny44 wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 19:54
Ray Scully wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 16:19
Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.
Ray, what exactly are you trying to say? Seems to me that you are so annoyed with the referendum result that your mouth is running away with you.
John

Rather than having a personal pot, perhaps you can tell me where I am wrong in MY assessment of the current situation.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 13 Oct 2018, 22:45

Ray Scully wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 21:03
towny44 wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 19:54
Ray Scully wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 16:19
Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.
Ray, what exactly are you trying to say? Seems to me that you are so annoyed with the referendum result that your mouth is running away with you.
John

Rather than having a personal pot, perhaps you can tell me where I am wrong in MY assessment of the current situation.
Ray, its not a personal pot at you but a serious question, I have very little idea of the points you are trying to make, if you have any serious proposals as to how we should arrange a sensible exit from the EU in the face of their complete unwillingness to do anything except repeat the De Gaulle answer of "Non" then do please share them with our community. I assume when article 50 was being written that the EU did envisage the possibility that a country might use it to leave, if so why on earth are they trying to make leaving so impossible.
Last edited by towny44 on 13 Oct 2018, 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 Oct 2018, 11:43

John Ironically it was Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was the author of Article 50. My disillusionment revolves around those who thought/said we could expect a good deal from the EU on leaving when it was transparently obvious that to give the UK such a deal could damage the EU. Also being from Irish descent I am acutely aware of the fragile political situation in the North that will take generations for the hostility to finally recede. As for a serious proposal, WELL! far cleverer people than me are and have been trying to "square this circle" with little success.
Last edited by Ray Scully on 14 Oct 2018, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 Oct 2018, 11:49

As I've said many times John, the EU is obliged to make it as difficult as possible for no other reason than to discourage others.
There is a huge amount of anti EU feeling all across Europe.

I have family and very good friends in Malta and have spent a lot of time there.

While the Maltese government is VERY pro EU, my feeling is that the majority regret voting to join.
Join the EU won by 54% to 46% so it was hardly a ringing endorsement.
The is no dispute that Malta has done tremendously well financially from the EU, but is has sort of ripped the guts out of the country.
Over development is through the roof.
The roads are gridlocked.
Property prices have priced out young people and locals due to over demand.
The major conribution to all of this is free movement of people.
The spike in population has caused a lot of problems and surpressed wages.
The island is now full of eastern Europeans living 10 to a flat and working for peanuts.
Someone is doing pretty well out of it all, but it's not the locals.

They gained full independence in 1964 and sold it in 2004 for a handful of silver.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 Oct 2018, 11:56

Ray Scully wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 11:43
John Ironically it was Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was the author of Article 50. My disillusionment revolves around those who thought/said we could expect a good deal from the EU on leaving when it was transparently obvious that to give the UK such a deal could damage the EU. Also being from Irish descent I am acutely aware of the fragile political situation in the North that will take generations for the hostility to finally recede. As for a serious proposal, WELL! far cleverer people than me are and have been trying to "square this circle" with little success.
Once again we are in full agreement Ray.
My stance has always been that the EU would do everything in it's power to discourage leaving and hopefully be able to reverse the decision as it has in other countries.
Now they seem to have come to terms with the fact the UK is not changing it's mind, there seems to be an element of concern in Brussels.

My personal opinion is that they are prepared to hang Ireland out to dry, to protect their 'four freedoms'

The simple fact that our government has said that the UK will not implement a border under any circumstance has thrown their tactic in to chaos.
So, we will not implement a physical border.
The Irish have said that they will not implement a border.
That only leaves the EU to implement one.
Will they guard it with German troops ?

The penny has dropped in Germany
https://punchng.com/german-business-los ... xit-talks/
Last edited by barney on 14 Oct 2018, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Oct 2018, 14:15

Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 14 Oct 2018, 15:02

barney wrote:
13 Oct 2018, 14:11
Foster is seriously racked off about this
quote below from Belfast Telegraph
“This backstop arrangement would not be temporary. It would be the permanent annexation of Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom and forever leave us subject to rules made in a place where we have no say,” wrote Foster.

How on earth the EU & Ireland think that this can be acceptable is beyond me.


Unless the EU reign it in, the DUP will bring down the Government and there will have to be a general election before Brexit.
I'd predict a hung parliament either way, and the UK will leave at the end of March with no agreement and no transition.

Maybe the Remain crew who have tried to derail the process at every stage will then be satisfied.
They will end up getting the exact opposite of what they wanted.
That is, the UK leaving the EU with no agreement.
Why are you trying to blame remainers?

DUP are pro Brexit
If they DON'T bring down the government, then no doubt the Brexiters in the Conservative party will.

If blame has to be apportioned it should go to the Leave Campaign for their campaign that tricked people into thinking it was going to be a walk into the park, the government for their sheer ineptitude in negotiations, and Brexit leaning politicians.

I don't blame leave voters for the way they voted, but I point the finger at them for their sheer pigheadedness that it's got to proceed, even though it's heading towards a disaster.

But, no, according to some on here, it's all down to remainers!
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 14 Oct 2018, 15:05

barney wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 11:56
Ray Scully wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 11:43
John Ironically it was Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was the author of Article 50. My disillusionment revolves around those who thought/said we could expect a good deal from the EU on leaving when it was transparently obvious that to give the UK such a deal could damage the EU. Also being from Irish descent I am acutely aware of the fragile political situation in the North that will take generations for the hostility to finally recede. As for a serious proposal, WELL! far cleverer people than me are and have been trying to "square this circle" with little success.
Once again we are in full agreement Ray.
My stance has always been that the EU would do everything in it's power to discourage leaving and hopefully be able to reverse the decision as it has in other countries.
Now they seem to have come to terms with the fact the UK is not changing it's mind, there seems to be an element of concern in Brussels.

My personal opinion is that they are prepared to hang Ireland out to dry, to protect their 'four freedoms'

The simple fact that our government has said that the UK will not implement a border under any circumstance has thrown their tactic in to chaos.
So, we will not implement a physical border.
The Irish have said that they will not implement a border.
That only leaves the EU to implement one.
Will they guard it with German troops ?

The penny has dropped in Germany
https://punchng.com/german-business-los ... xit-talks/
Or we could stop Brexit completely, that'd sort it out.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Oct 2018, 15:10

Gill W wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 15:05
Or we could stop Brexit completely, that'd sort it out.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Stephen » 14 Oct 2018, 16:08

And pigs might fly.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 14 Oct 2018, 16:19

Stephen wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 16:08
And pigs might fly.
Very true - so Brexiters should just stop moaning. They're getting what they want, they've got to deal with it
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 Oct 2018, 16:41

Nobody is moaning Gill, well, except those who lost!
And nobody is blaming the reamainers or the EU.
I'm certainly not anyway.
I don't even blame the Leave campaign.
I blame May 100% for handling the whole thing so badly, and to rub salt in, continuing to do so.

We've all got to deal with it, not just those who voted leave.
We all own it because it was a democratic decision, voted for by the majority.
I understand why many disagree, but you will get your chance to change it at the next election, which may be sooner than you think.
The LibDems should walk it as the only Stop Brexit party.

What a funny old world it's turned in to.
Once upon a time, a vote counted for something.
Now days, if you have lost, you can just refuse to recognise it.
Some in the USA still declare that Trump is not the President.
They just cannot accept that they called it wrong.

As for Femi Oluwole, his organisation is funded by George Soros amongst others. (according to The Guardian)
That well known 'man of the people'
He shares office space with six anti-Brexit groups; Best for Britain, Open Britain, European Movement, Britain for Europe, Scientists for EU, Healthier IN and InFacts that have been brought together by Chukka Umunna’s GCG.
His apparent common sense approach is blighted by one important fact.
There was a legitimate vote and his side lost it.
If there was to be a 'people's vote' as a second referendum, these organisations would need to declare their funding sources under the rules of the Electoral Commission.
Now, that would be interesting.
Last edited by barney on 14 Oct 2018, 16:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 14 Oct 2018, 16:50

You do make me laugh Barney.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 Oct 2018, 16:58

Thanks :wave:

I aim to please :thumbup:

Things that don't appear in the British press

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... l-reached/

I bet you it's a total fudge and stitch up.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 14 Oct 2018, 17:07

Jack Staff wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 16:50
You do make me laugh Barney.
Barney makes me laugh too :lol:

You, on the other hands are a miserable old sod who constantly goes on like a prophet of doom. :yawn:

ps well done Barney :clap: :clap:

The people have spoken so get over it y'all

Gill … those who ' voted ' to Remain are not at all to blame in my book, it's the ostrich style Politicos who are using the Remain loss to foster their own greed, benefit and interest.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 Oct 2018, 19:53

A remainer friend recently suggested that should we leave without a deal and there is calculable harm to peoples jobs income etc, "it will be the fault of the Remainers for not supporting Leave". Please is there anyone out there who can help me understand this?

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 14 Oct 2018, 20:15

Ray Scully wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 19:53
A remainer friend recently suggested that should we leave without a deal and there is calculable harm to peoples jobs income etc, "it will be the fault of the Remainers for not supporting Leave". Please is there anyone out there who can help me understand this?
Its possible he may have meant remainers should have accepted the result and put their backing behind the leave cause to ensure the Govt. had the full backing of the electorate behind them, and were able to obtain the best terms possible, and were not distracted by calls for a second vote.
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 Oct 2018, 10:05

Ray Scully wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 19:53
A remainer friend recently suggested that should we leave without a deal and there is calculable harm to peoples jobs income etc, "it will be the fault of the Remainers for not supporting Leave". Please is there anyone out there who can help me understand this?
That is totally inexplicable Ray.
It make no sense at all.

While I don't think that we should leave without a deal, it will be very difficult to achieve one that is mutually agreeable.
These current talks are not even about any deal.
They are about the terms in which we depart.
The EU want to totally dictate those terms and make leaving as unattractive as possible.
That is exactly why May has mishandled the whole thing and jumped to the EU's timetable and conditions.

In my humble opinion, the terms of departure should have been carried out in conjunction with the actual trade agreement.
The two are inextricably linked.
That is, if a trade deal is done, the Irish border issue becomes irrelevant.
The UK should have played hardball in the beginning and insisted on this as part of the negotiation.
Had the EU not agreed, then we'd all know where we stand at the beginning.
The EU insisted on separating the two issues and the UK said OK.
Unbelievable.

May and her advisors have handled it about as badly as they could.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 15 Oct 2018, 10:06

towny44 wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 20:15
Ray Scully wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 19:53
A remainer friend recently suggested that should we leave without a deal and there is calculable harm to peoples jobs income etc, "it will be the fault of the Remainers for not supporting Leave". Please is there anyone out there who can help me understand this?
Its possible he may have meant remainers should have accepted the result and put their backing behind the leave cause to ensure the Govt. had the full backing of the electorate behind them, and were able to obtain the best terms possible, and were not distracted by calls for a second vote.
How would that have changed anything?

We’d have still been in the position that May recklessly invoked Article 50, the same unless negotiating team and the same issues with the Irish border (which were raised on the day after the Brexit referendum by those clear sighted enough to have coherent thought).

Therefore I haven’t got a clue what Ray’s friend is on about.

To no one’s surprise, talks last night went nowhere.

As Danny Dyer said, Brexit is a riddle that no one can solve.

But, hey, for reasons that now completely escape me we must press on regardless.

Note - just seen Barney’s comments. I agree with him ( in part)
Last edited by Gill W on 15 Oct 2018, 10:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 15 Oct 2018, 10:21

barney wrote:
15 Oct 2018, 10:05
Ray Scully wrote:
14 Oct 2018, 19:53
A remainer friend recently suggested that should we leave without a deal and there is calculable harm to peoples jobs income etc, "it will be the fault of the Remainers for not supporting Leave". Please is there anyone out there who can help me understand this?
That is totally inexplicable Ray.
It make no sense at all.

While I don't think that we should leave without a deal, it will be very difficult to achieve one that is mutually agreeable.
These current talks are not even about any deal.
They are about the terms in which we depart.
The EU want to totally dictate those terms and make leaving as unattractive as possible.
That is exactly why May has mishandled the whole thing and jumped to the EU's timetable and conditions.

In my humble opinion, the terms of departure should have been carried out in conjunction with the actual trade agreement.
The two are inextricably linked.
That is, if a trade deal is done, the Irish border issue becomes irrelevant.
The UK should have played hardball in the beginning and insisted on this as part of the negotiation.
Had the EU not agreed, then we'd all know where we stand at the beginning.
The EU insisted on separating the two issues and the UK said OK.
Unbelievable.

May and her advisors have handled it about as badly as they could.
Barney
I fear that it is no longer, or perhaps never has been about coming to a mutually advantages agreement. For both sets of negotiators and for many who voted in the referendum, it's about their side winning or losing.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 15 Oct 2018, 12:02

Theresa May to make a statement to Parliament this afternoon, about Brexit negotiations, at 3.30pm.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by Onelife » 15 Oct 2018, 15:13

Hi Gill.....l have penciled this time slot into my household duties...it should be interesting.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 Oct 2018, 16:14

How very underwhelming

Nothing has changed but she thought she should let us all know that nothing has changed.

Mind you, it's nice to see that she in concerned for Northern Ireland when the EU clearly don't give a flying fig about Ireland.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 15 Oct 2018, 16:50

Groundhog Day all over again!
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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 15 Oct 2018, 16:57

Gill W wrote:
15 Oct 2018, 16:50
Groundhog Day all over again!
If Brexit the movie is half as good as that, it will be a roaring success. :lol:
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Re: Brexit

Post by Onelife » 15 Oct 2018, 17:49

Well she didn't tell us anything that furthered our Brexit negotiations but what she did reveal was how Mogg, Smith and Johnson reacted when Theresa May responded to their questions....l can tell you now that if Theresa May can bring home her chequers deal (intact) then you'll see how quickly they fall into line.....why? Because they are all mouth and no trousers, Why? Because a Canadian style deal comes with all kinds of limitations, and a no deal comes with me having to fill my shelves even higher than what they already are now.

P.s l'm still backing Theresa.......100%

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 15 Oct 2018, 21:45

Are you the new food supplies minister, Keith?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Onelife » 15 Oct 2018, 23:33

Gill W wrote:
15 Oct 2018, 21:45
Are you the new food supplies minister, Keith?

Not likely Gill

If my faith in Theresa May doesn't come to fruition then David Rutley will become a clone of Theresa May.....Dammed if he dose dammed if he doesn't....should he not come up with the goods.

I'm just sorry l ever mentioned talking up my ample food supplies as l'm now thinking l might need to invest in barbed wire fencing to protect my hord of M&S goodies :lol:

Happy Christmas and hopfully not a hungry new year to all?

Regards

Keith :wave:

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 Oct 2018, 10:19

Could this get anymore humiliating for the Prime Minister ?
She is like the little puppy whose master keeps pushing it away but it keeps coming back for more.

Enough is enough Mrs May.
The EU are openly taking the pee out of you.

Another year and another 17 billion quid.
Funny that they can find that but cannot rustle up 2 billion to properly finance Universal Credit.

it really is time for her to go !

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Re: Brexit

Post by Stephen » 18 Oct 2018, 10:32

Agree barney.



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Re: Brexit

Post by Onelife » 18 Oct 2018, 11:33

Hi Barney,

I think it fair to say that l and indeed several others have put forward several different views as to how we think the brexit negotiations should have progressed . What l am certain of us is that none of us could have known how complex theses negotiations would turn out to be when we embarked on Brexit. I myself have suggested going down the Canadian style option....with its wishful thinking +++ add ons whatever they are? 

I have also go along with the 'sod them and walk WTO option'  but the more l have read about these two options the more l think Theresa May's 'cabinet' decision  is the right one for this country. In many ways l see an extended transition period as an unfortunate but sensible concession should it allow us to sort out the Irish boarder issue, it also allows more  time for what are going to be very complex transitional processes.....surely the ultimate  goal is to leave the EU even if it takes a little longer than first envisaged.


Barney....l'm not sure how all this is going to pan out but if Theresa May 'can' hold her cabinet together after this suggested concession then one must think that this option is better than going down a route of equally complex canadian/WTO options once outside of the EU.


Regards

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 18 Oct 2018, 11:57

Onelife wrote:
18 Oct 2018, 11:33
Hi Barney,



Barney....l'm not sure how all this is going to pan out but if Theresa May 'can' hold her cabinet together after this suggested concession then one must think that this option is better than going down a route of equally complex canadian/WTO options once outside of the EU.


Regards
Maybe, she should tell the EU that if they don't stop p**s f****ng around she will resign and support Boris for leader and PM, if they think the UK don't know what their negotiating position is under May, whatever will they think with Boris at the helm?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 18 Oct 2018, 12:19

Onelife wrote:
18 Oct 2018, 11:33
Hi Barney,

I think it fair to say that l and indeed several others have put forward several different views as to how we think the brexit negotiations should have progressed . What l am certain of us is that none of us could have known how complex theses negotiations would turn out to be when we embarked on Brexit. I myself have suggested going down the Canadian style option....with its wishful thinking +++ add ons whatever they are? 

I have also go along with the 'sod them and walk WTO option'  but the more l have read about these two options the more l think Theresa May's 'cabinet' decision  is the right one for this country. In many ways l see an extended transition period as an unfortunate but sensible concession should it allow us to sort out the Irish boarder issue, it also allows more  time for what are going to be very complex transitional processes.....surely the ultimate  goal is to leave the EU even if it takes a little longer than first envisaged.


Barney....l'm not sure how all this is going to pan out but if Theresa May 'can' hold her cabinet together after this suggested concession then one must think that this option is better than going down a route of equally complex canadian/WTO options once outside of the EU.


Regards
We did know how complex it'd be - or those of us who listened to knowledgeable people more than two years ago knew - but it was all dismissed as Project Fear.

As said on this board a couple of days ago, nothing has changed, and that is the view of the EU too, as there's to be no special summit in November. So, we drift along until December like a rudderless ship, where no doubt the whole charade will be enacted again. If by some miracle, agreement is reached, it'll be Christmas, so all the MP's will go on holiday, and it won't go before parliament until the new year. Then it's got to get through Parliament, which is not certain. Either way, come mid January, there'll most likely be nothing in place, with just a few weeks to go until Brexit.

Regarding extending the transition period, to have transition, we have to have a deal. (See above).

If the government had done their job effectively and had not messed around for two years, we wouldn't need to extend the transition period anyway. IF (big if), there's a deal, and we extend to transition to 2022, it'll mean we'll be subject to EU rules and regulations but with no say in making the rules and regulations. So much for the 'taking back control' mantra of the Brexiters!

I agree that Teresa May should go - but the problem is I can't see any individual competent enough to a) negotiate Brexit and b) to sort out the mess that we are in.

The only way that I can see out of this hole is to stop Brexit altogether. I know Brexiterrs won't agree as, for some reason or other, we must proceed with this nightmare no matter how damaging it is, but, for me, it's the only sane course of action left.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 Oct 2018, 12:54

"If the government had done their job effectively and had not messed around for two years, we wouldn't need to extend the transition period anyway."

100% correct Gill.

Our government should have played hardball from the very beginning and not let the EU side dictate evrything.

The stance should have been that we leave March 2019 with or without agreement.
No withdraw agreement means no bribe money.
No trade agreement means standard WTO terms.
Then and only then, after we had left should we be talking about a trade deal.

The very first question should be, does the EU want afree trade agreement with one of the most powerful and wealthy countries in the world.

I was furious last night when I was watching the Prime minister of Luxembourg saying this, the Prime minister of Lativa saying that.
The Prime minister of Lithuania saying what we should do.
Why the hell are we even trying to negotiate with these financial minnows.
This situation highlights everything that is wrong with the EU.
The tail wagging the dog.
Faceless European nobodies leading a politcal union that we never voted for in the first place.
Everytime Juncker opens his mouth it reminds me as to why I voted leave.
The GDP of the UK is equal to the GDP of 19 EU countries combined.
And she is allowing herself to be treated like that.

Walk away Teresa.
Grow a pair and stand up for the majority.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 18 Oct 2018, 13:03

Gill W wrote:
18 Oct 2018, 12:19
Onelife wrote:
18 Oct 2018, 11:33
Hi Barney,

I think it fair to say that l and indeed several others have put forward several different views as to how we think the brexit negotiations should have progressed . What l am certain of us is that none of us could have known how complex theses negotiations would turn out to be when we embarked on Brexit. I myself have suggested going down the Canadian style option....with its wishful thinking +++ add ons whatever they are? 

I have also go along with the 'sod them and walk WTO option'  but the more l have read about these two options the more l think Theresa May's 'cabinet' decision  is the right one for this country. In many ways l see an extended transition period as an unfortunate but sensible concession should it allow us to sort out the Irish boarder issue, it also allows more  time for what are going to be very complex transitional processes.....surely the ultimate  goal is to leave the EU even if it takes a little longer than first envisaged.


Barney....l'm not sure how all this is going to pan out but if Theresa May 'can' hold her cabinet together after this suggested concession then one must think that this option is better than going down a route of equally complex canadian/WTO options once outside of the EU.


Regards
We did know how complex it'd be - or those of us who listened to knowledgeable people more than two years ago knew - but it was all dismissed as Project Fear.

As said on this board a couple of days ago, nothing has changed, and that is the view of the EU too, as there's to be no special summit in November. So, we drift along until December like a rudderless ship, where no doubt the whole charade will be enacted again. If by some miracle, agreement is reached, it'll be Christmas, so all the MP's will go on holiday, and it won't go before parliament until the new year. Then it's got to get through Parliament, which is not certain. Either way, come mid January, there'll most likely be nothing in place, with just a few weeks to go until Brexit.

Regarding extending the transition period, to have transition, we have to have a deal. (See above).

If the government had done their job effectively and had not messed around for two years, we wouldn't need to extend the transition period anyway. IF (big if), there's a deal, and we extend to transition to 2022, it'll mean we'll be subject to EU rules and regulations but with no say in making the rules and regulations. So much for the 'taking back control' mantra of the Brexiters!

I agree that Teresa May should go - but the problem is I can't see any individual competent enough to a) negotiate Brexit and b) to sort out the mess that we are in.

The only way that I can see out of this hole is to stop Brexit altogether. I know Brexiterrs won't agree as, for some reason or other, we must proceed with this nightmare no matter how damaging it is, but, for me, it's the only sane course of action left.
I am beginning to think that you are possibly correct Gill, but maybe not for the same reasons. It has become increasingly apparent that the EU has no intention of letting us leave on any terms that would be acceptable to any UK government. As a result staying in but with the declared intention of campaigning vigorously to return the EU to a free trade association and dismantle the federal bureaucracy, by using any means within our power.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 18 Oct 2018, 13:32

I agree that reform in the EU is needed, and up until now we were were one of the leading nations within the EU. We are walking away from the best trade deals, it’s like cutting off our nose to spite our faces. Staying and enjoying the trade deals that have been negotiated over 40 yrs and working for change within, makes sense to me.

However, I think we have gone beyond the point of sanity, and can’t see this being stopped, no matter how ridiculous the current situation is and how much misery will be caused.
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 Oct 2018, 14:18

Unfortunately the EU is not for reforming or changing in any way Gill.
Whether we are members or not, their policy is enlargement and more centralisation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

This was never on the referendum paper and many who voted to remain thought that they were voting for the status quo.

in my opinion, it will eventually destroy itself anyway.
It cannot keep taking in poor countries and expecting the wealthier ones to subsidise it all.

It's like taking a roast dinner round to your neighbour while your own family live on bread and dripping.

The mistake that you and others are making is that you think that it's all about trade.
It is not.
It is a political alliance with Brussels at the centre of it all.
They want to harmonise everything to make it one homogenous, single entity.
Be it taxation, military or anything else.
Brussels will rule and you will do as you are told.
Just take a look at the Italy budget situation and you will see what I mean.

The dream is a United States of Europe.

You and others may be quite happy with that.
I and many others are not.

Love Europe
Hate the EU.

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