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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 08 Nov 2018, 19:31

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 17:42
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 17:38
Where is the link Jack?
It is the document you quoted. Your link.
Did you not read it before you posted?
So we disregard the rest of the text and whatever May and successive ministers have said? If your ship was sinking you'd look for a straw to cling to.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 20:10

oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 19:31
Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 17:42
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 17:38
Where is the link Jack?
It is the document you quoted. Your link.
Did you not read it before you posted?
So we disregard the rest of the text and whatever May and successive ministers have said? If your ship was sinking you'd look for a straw to cling to.
It makes no odds what has been said. It is what is going to be said in the next couple of weeks that counts.
At present there is NOTHING in place to stop that SNP MP being completely correct in worrying about his wife (and kids?) being thrown out of the life she has made in our country. Absolutely heartless.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 08 Nov 2018, 21:08

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 20:10
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 19:31
Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 17:42
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 17:38
Where is the link Jack?
It is the document you quoted. Your link.
Did you not read it before you posted?
So we disregard the rest of the text and whatever May and successive ministers have said? If your ship was sinking you'd look for a straw to cling to.
It makes no odds what has been said. It is what is going to be said in the next couple of weeks that counts.
At present there is NOTHING in place to stop that SNP MP being completely correct in worrying about his wife (and kids?) being thrown out of the life she has made in our country. Absolutely heartless.
What you are suggesting goes against every comment made by TM and many of her ministers, if what you say is not project fear, then what is it?
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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 08 Nov 2018, 21:22

I find that stories such as this which are perpetrated by the Remain camp are heartless and immoral and contrary to everything TM and her ministers have said right from the outset. It's a disgrace.
This is what TM said:
"EU citizens who have made their lives in the UK have made a huge contribution to our country. And we want them and their families to stay. I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay".

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 21:34

oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:22
I find that stories such as this which are perpetrated by the Remain camp are heartless and immoral and contrary to everything TM and her ministers have said right from the outset. It's a disgrace.
This is what TM said:
"EU citizens who have made their lives in the UK have made a huge contribution to our country. And we want them and their families to stay. I couldn’t be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay".
Guys! Guys! Don't have a go at me!
This is simply what is happening.
All that you say is part of the 95% of 'the deal' that has been agreed.
But we know nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
The Titanic got 95% of the way to New York.
There are members of the cabinet (and even members of this forum) publicly advocating NO DEAL.
So I say again...
"At present there is NOTHING in place to stop that SNP MP being completely correct in worrying about his wife (and kids?) being thrown out of the life she has made in our country. Absolutely heartless."
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 08 Nov 2018, 21:50

But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 21:54

oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:50
But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.
Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 08 Nov 2018, 22:05

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:54
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:50
But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.
Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.
Jack, I doubt your claim is anywhere near true, yet another project fear claim to try and spread doubt and concern amongst EU citizen living in the UK, you really should be ashamed of yourself.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 22:08

towny44 wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:05
Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:54
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:50
But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.
Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.
Jack, I doubt your claim is anywhere near true, yet another project fear claim to try and spread doubt and concern amongst EU citizen living in the UK, you really should be ashamed of yourself.
You obviously have no idea of what is going on.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 08 Nov 2018, 22:14

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:54
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 21:50
But why do you try to defend something which is so remotely unlikely?
Another quote from September 21st 2018:
"THERESA May came out full force in support of European citizens living in the United Kingdom, reassuring them their rights will be protected in the event of a no deal as she issued a stern warning to the European Union".
And another:
"Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living in the UK – even in the event of a no deal in the Brexit negotiations".
What is absolutely heartless about that? I don't think TM could make it any clearer so I don't see how you could think otherwise despite your 95% claim.
To say EU citizens will have to go home after Brexit is, to my mind, heartless and untrue.
Those that can are leaving now. They don't trust our government any more. They no longer have faith in this country.
Whoops!
BBC News:
"The number of EU citizens leaving the UK is at its highest level for a decade with 130,000 emigrating in the year to September, figures show.
But far more EU nationals (220,000) moved to the UK in the same period, the Office for National Statistics found".
You were half right Jack. You just forgot the other half. In Remainer talk just a few extra came to the UK. The Leavers speak says there was a net gain of 90,000. It doesn't sound like lack of trust or faith if they are still coming.
Btw Bliar said there would be just 13000. p***ock!!! :lol:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 22:19

oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:14
Whoops!
BBC News:
"The number of EU citizens leaving the UK is at its highest level for a decade with 130,000 emigrating in the year to September, figures show.
But far more EU nationals (220,000) moved to the UK in the same period, the Office for National Statistics found".
You were half right Jack. You just forgot the other half. In Remainer talk just a few extra came to the UK. The Leavers speak says there was a net gain of 90,000. It doesn't sound like lack of trust or faith if they are still coming.
Btw Bliar said there would be just 13000. p***ock!!! :lol:
The ones that are leaving are husbands, wives of families of British children.
They are the settled ones with good jobs, doctors, nurses, architects,...
But lets have a laugh about it.
It's only numbers, not your family. So that's alright.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 08 Nov 2018, 22:23

You know that for a fact Jack?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 22:24

Mervyn and Trish wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:23
You know that for a fact Jack?
Yes
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 08 Nov 2018, 22:24

You know them all.personally?

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 08 Nov 2018, 22:40

Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 22:46

Mervyn and Trish wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:24
You know them all.personally?
Of course not. But for the last two and a half years the 'Bresistance' has grown exponentially. Being an active member, I have many Facecloth friends for example, a high proportion of which are either people directly affected (foreigners to you) or married to them. Most of which I have never met in person, but have seen their baby pictures, their Halloween costumes, their pets being silly. I feel I know them and I certainly feel for them.
I do know my next door neighbours sons' wife (who live together, with their grandson, big house). She is Latvian. Her father in law, a Brexiter, is distraught at what the future holds.
My best mate, of decades, is considering starting a hotel in Poland, so that he can carry on his life with is wife.
So no, I don't know them all personally. I don't have to to feel compassion for them and shame for what my country is doing.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 08 Nov 2018, 22:47

towny44 wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:40
Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?
And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 09 Nov 2018, 08:59

Much as I have tried, I find it very difficult to defend you Jack. You made numerous statements which were half truths where evidence showed the opposite to be true or statements based not on evidence but the relatively small circle of (Remainer) friends who are not necessarily representative of the whole. You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous. To try to blame lack of trust and faith as the reason for 130000 EU citizens leaving the UK is naive in the extreme especially when you ignore the fact that 220000 were coming. I noted you were happy to adopt sarcasm in your response to me, which I was happy to ignore. If you are going to dish it out then you should not call foul if it comes back at you.

"And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post".
So you have evidence for this Jack? People will come and go from a forum for many and varied reasons so a sweeping statement such as this is not true. I appreciate some members do not post on the Brexit topic for their own reasons. It is an emotive subject but to say the forum is dying because of posts on the Brexit topic whilst ignoring other reasons is dubious at best.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 09:13

towny44 wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 16:19
Gill W wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 16:02
oldbluefox wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 08:58
Gill W wrote:
07 Nov 2018, 22:41


What IS the reason?
Not really sure why you asked the question or why the emphasis in your reply to me. I think barney answered this very succinctly in his post which I have copied for you:
"As far as I'm concerned, the elephant in the room is what the EU intends to become, and that is never discussed by either side.
At the moment, it's speculation as is almost all of the Remain arguments, but the EU intentions have been very widely publicized.
To pretend that the EU will stay the same is like trying to pretend that it it what we joined all of those years ago.
To gauge current opinion depends entirely on what question you ask.
How about
Leave the EU and determine our own future
or
Remain in the EU, be ruled by Brussels and continue to pay in even increasing amounts of tax payers money while collaborating in robbing eastern Europe of the youngest and brightest people and admitting more and more supplicant poor counties looking for hand outs.
Has a slightly different ring to it ?
If the UK does not take this opportunity now, it will be buried for ever and our descendants will question why we did not leave when we had the chance".
It was an open question to anybody who cared to answer, but as you had added your own option, it just so happened it appeared in my answer to you.

Barney's reply doesn't help at all. I was wondering why we need to be talking about Federalism at all at this point. We are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019, so it's immaterial to us what the EU's plans are, as we won't be part of the EU any more.

I was speculating why the Brexit contingent feel the need to carry on up this particular avenue and these are my suggestions for a reason

a) still trying to justify their vote. (there's no need for this, we are beyond that stage now.)
b) Trying to get Remainers round to their way of thinking. (we are also beyond that stage, as views are entrenched)
c) using this as a displacement activity, to try and not think about the UK being in a crisis situation)

We've now gone round in a complete circle, and I'm still none the wiser
Gill, the remain contingent on here keep questioning why the brexiteers voted to leave your cosy club, which is why we keep telling you its because we did not want to go down the EU federal route. And regardless of how many times you question why, the answer will remain the same, which is why we rarely ask you why you want to stay in the club.
The remain contingent, as you call it, numbers about 4 regular posters on this forum. I don’t think any of the Remainers are constantly questioning Leavers about their vote. As I’ve been saying, we’re beyond that now, I think the narrative should be about what is happening now.

I’m not even sure what you mean by ‘my cosy club’. As I said a few days ago, up until about 3 yrs ago, I rarely thought about the EU. When the referendum came round, I weighed up the options, and decided that remaining would be the best option, mainly because I felt that it would provide more opportunities for young people. If the government wasn’t making such a complete pigs ear of the withdrawal and we were where we should be at this point - i.e. a withdrawal agreement agreed that at the very least didn’t leave us worse off- I wouldn’t even be posting on this subject.

I only started posting in the summer because I could see that chaos was unfolding and I wanted to talk about it - not because I’m a EU headbanger.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 09:42

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:47
towny44 wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:40
Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?
And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post.
Hear hear.

The combative tone of postings wears you down after a while.

Not to mention the accusations of ‘ranting’.

I also find if outrageous that I’m expected to pass judgement on another forum member.

However, I was going to comment on this subject, so I will post what I planned to say.

In spite of Theresa May’s reassurances, I have observed that people from other EU countries that have settled here are becoming very anxious and unhappy.

The reasons seem to be

A) uncertaincy - just 4 and a half months to go, and they have no idea what system will be in place to allow them to carry on living here

b) Lack of trust in the Government to keep its promises

C) they no longer feel welcome here. In the last couple of years they report an increase in random abuse and general nastiness when they are out and about. Sometimes it’s been very intimidating.

How have I come to this conclusion. Good old Twitter of course. It gives you a feel of what’s happening out there. It’s not just isolated comment, it seems to be more than that.

I have no idea of figures regarding people who’ve upped sticks left the U.K.

What I would say, is perhaps people should show a bit of empathy and put themselves in the shoes of someone who’s lived here for 40 yrs, married a British person and has British children, now everything seems uncertain and they are even facing hostility. Horrible situation to be in.

Although social media is sneered at on this forum, it gives us a wider look at society than our own narrow lives. I joined Twitter just after the Referendum and feel that I am much better informed than I would be otherwise.
Gill

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 09 Nov 2018, 09:55

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:47
towny44 wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:40
Jack knows the theory about everything, a right little Stephen Hawking is our Jack. So every single one of the 130,000 leaving the UK is a married family with children who were born here, also a proper little Brian Hanrahan as well, counting them all in and counting them all out. I really would like to have Gill, GP and Rays views on the latest Rantings of their poster boy?
And people wonder why this forum is dying. Here's the answer in one post.
Foxy has aready answered this very eloguently but I'll add my bit anyway. I might not have put it so strongly as John but I understand why he did so.

I don't know how many EU nationals you actually know Jack, maybe 10, maybe 100, maybe more but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are, their social class, their jobs, their family circumstances, their motivation.

It is the same as the way you seem to know why some of us voted to leave, despite us telling you different frequently. Your assumption you are right and we are idiots. Your assumption that those who abstained in the vote were all on your side or that because they exercised their democratic right to not vote that the outcome is invalid.

Unless there is something you're not telling us you're not in the cabinet nor in the negotiating room, so you know exactly the same as the rest of us about the way it's going or the way it will conclude. Which at the moment is the square root of bu@@er all. It never was going to be easy, I never said nor believed it would be, and it isn't, but let's wait till we see the deal or not before we announce what it is and declare the end of the civilised world.

I too find you hugely frustrating Jack. I accept your democratic right to vote the way you did and to hold the views you do. They are as valid as mine, but no more so. For goodness sake stop pretending you know all the answers and we don't. Because it is true we don't. And neither do you.

As an aside in the last few days I see I have something in common with Gill. We may differ substantially in our overall view but she told us a few posts back that she was convinced to vote remain by the leave campaign. I was convinced to vote leave by the remain campaign. Maybe that means that if they'd just published the referendum question and both shut up the outcome would have been different.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Stephen » 09 Nov 2018, 11:12

It'll all pan out in the end. What ever happens, good or not so good we'll deal with it, we always do.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Golden Princess » 09 Nov 2018, 11:50

I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 12:07

Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:46
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:24
You know them all.personally?
Of course not.
...
So no, I don't know them all personally.
oldbluefox wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 08:59
You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous.
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 09:55
.. but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are,

I think it is outrageous and preposterous to suggest I said that, when evidence clearly shows otherwise.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 12:11

Golden Princess wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 11:50
I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.
But it's what the Brexiters won.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 09 Nov 2018, 12:57

Golden Princess wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 11:50
I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.
Many people find it difficult to cope with change but unfortunately for them change is what we are going to get, it will not be going away.

So GP …. what are ' your ' concerns, what are these ' implications ' that will hit you and your family the hardest ?

For the wider audience … as a polite discussion please rather than an argument about fighting for one's corner.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 09 Nov 2018, 13:28

I sympathise with Golden Princess's concerns even if I don't agree with them.

Some do find it very difficult to deal with change but by the fact that the majority did vote for change, we will have to get used to it.
There would have been a massive amount of change even if the result had gone the other way.
Fromm the research that I've done about the future of The European Union, I suspect that the UK has dodged a bullet.
I expect that the French, Germans and Italians will be chuffed to punch when tens of thousands of Albanians rock up on there shores, just to add to the migrant crisis.
Business will of course love it.
More poor folk to exploit.

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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 09 Nov 2018, 14:07

There is, and always will be, change - it is the way of the world. If there was to be a General Election and Labour were to gain power there most definitely will be change which, if they carry out the things that they are talking about, will make Brexit appear to be a "non event".

As far as Brexit is concerned I look at more as evolution than change.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 09 Nov 2018, 14:33

It does seem that the majority of concerns are what might happen in the event that there is no deal, and the more vociferous remainers want to push this scenario to highlight the possible chaos this may cause.
To be honest I never viewed this as a likely outcome when I chose to vote leave, simply because lots of countries have trade deals with the EU, and cherry picking apart, I assumed that negotiations would lead to a reasonable trade deal; even if it was not as broad reaching as the one we enjoy at present.
TBH I did not see the GFA as being the stumbling block that it has become, and I suspect not many voters did.
Also, despite our special status of never being forced to join the Euro, I considered that the upheavals it had caused the ECB with the Greek and Irish collapse, and the likely future issues with Italy, Spain, Portugal etc, then it was probable that the EU would need to divert more and more resources to maintaining the stability of the Euro, and those countries outside it would be increasingly marginalised, but needing to increase their contributions to support the burgeoning bureaucracy.
On top of this the proclaimed progress to an even more Federal vision of a European super state was totally unpalatable to me, and those issues were the main reasons I voted leave.
It would be interesting to know if our remainers considered the referendum choice in the same detail, or just succumbed to project fear, and chose the easy option?

PS I apologise to Jack if my sarcastic remarks offended him, but I always thought he was capable of giving as good as he got.
Last edited by towny44 on 09 Nov 2018, 14:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Mervyn and Trish
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 09 Nov 2018, 14:54

Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 12:07
Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:46
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:24
You know them all.personally?
Of course not.
...
So no, I don't know them all personally.
oldbluefox wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 08:59
You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous.
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 09:55
.. but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are,

I think it is outrageous and preposterous to suggest I said that, when evidence clearly shows otherwise.
Sorry Jack but I refer you to your post 2761 in which you detailed who the 120,000 were who were leaving. You did not make clear that you were only referring to a handful of them. Your post is there to see.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 15:13

Golden Princess wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 11:50
I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.
I completely understand what you are saying, and I think your comments are being misconstrued by other forum members as 'fear of change'.

I want to get on with my life, in a sensible country, that is not insisting on shooting itself in the foot. I don't want to have to deal, or cope, or put my back to the wall, or keep a stiff upper lip, or invoke the Dunkirk spirit, for a crisis that is of our own making and will leave us in a worse position than we are now.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 15:28

towny44 wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 14:33
It does seem that the majority of concerns are what might happen in the event that there is no deal, and the more vociferous remainers want to push this scenario to highlight the possible chaos this may cause.
To be honest I never viewed this as a likely outcome when I chose to vote leave, simply because lots of countries have trade deals with the EU, and cherry picking apart, I assumed that negotiations would lead to a reasonable trade deal; even if it was not as broad reaching as the one we enjoy at present.
TBH I did not see the GFA as being the stumbling block that it has become, and I suspect not many voters did.
Also, despite our special status of never being forced to join the Euro, I considered that the upheavals it had caused the ECB with the Greek and Irish collapse, and the likely future issues with Italy, Spain, Portugal etc, then it was probable that the EU would need to divert more and more resources to maintaining the stability of the Euro, and those countries outside it would be increasingly marginalised, but needing to increase their contributions to support the burgeoning bureaucracy.
On top of this the proclaimed progress to an even more Federal vision of a European super state was totally unpalatable to me, and those issues were the main reasons I voted leave.
It would be interesting to know if our remainers considered the referendum choice in the same detail, or just succumbed to project fear, and chose the easy option?

PS I apologise to Jack if my sarcastic remarks offended him, but I always thought he was capable of giving as good as he got.
I certainly do not want to push the no deal scenario, because I do not want chaos. However, I think everybody now needs to face up to this possibility. Each week, we are told it's a crunch week, and a deal is imminent. Then there's a bit of hot air from Raab or Davies, a cabinet meeting where they look blankly at each other for a while, and nothing substantive happens. Repeat the cycle again the following week. Now that May is in Belgium for for the Armistice commemorations, nothing will happen this week, that's for sure. We are rapidly running out of road, with nothing achieved.

I have a friend nicknamed Frances Two Brains (because her intelligence is off the scale), who was speaking about the problems that NI could cause, this was before the referendum. However, I agree that most people wouldn't have known about this. But it was unforgiveable for Article 50 to be triggered so hastilly without the full impact of this action being investigated.

I've already said (twice) my reasons for my vote, based on my own research and conclusions. I guarantee you, 'Project Fear' played no part in my vote. Do we still have to talk about 'Project Fear',it is so 2016, and looks like it was Project Mildly Pessimistic, anyway.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 09 Nov 2018, 16:05

Gill W wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 15:13
Golden Princess wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 11:50
I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.
I completely understand what you are saying, and I think your comments are being misconstrued by other forum members as 'fear of change'.

I want to get on with my life, in a sensible country, that is not insisting on shooting itself in the foot. I don't want to have to deal, or cope, or put my back to the wall, or keep a stiff upper lip, or invoke the Dunkirk spirit, for a crisis that is of our own making and will leave us in a worse position than we are now.
Well I don't and that is part of the reason why I invited GP to explain her fears, your explanation may be correct but I will await her own.

Your explanation regarding your good self would certainly explain the stance you have been taking on this Topic. I didn't see it coming but only because I have absolutely no fears of the future after Brexit here in the UK. There will be difficulties certainly but God knows we, well me, have lived through a number of those along the way.

How can post Brexit be as bad as the Union strife of the 70s, the rampant inflation with mortgage rates in the region of 20% plus the concerns of the Cold War with the Russians during that period ?

What on earth are you expecting ?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 16:28

Mervyn and Trish wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 14:54
Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 12:07
Jack Staff wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:46
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 22:24
You know them all.personally?
Of course not.
...
So no, I don't know them all personally.
oldbluefox wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 08:59
You do not know why 130000 people returned to Europe so to suggest you do is preposterous.
Mervyn and Trish wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 09:55
.. but it is outrageous to suggest you therefore know who the rest of the 120,000 are,

I think it is outrageous and preposterous to suggest I said that, when evidence clearly shows otherwise.
Sorry Jack but I refer you to your post 2761 in which you detailed who the 120,000 were who were leaving. You did not make clear that you were only referring to a handful of them. Your post is there to see.
Sorry Merv but I refer you to your post 2764 in which you asked me to clarify and my reply post 2766. Yet you still went on to accuse me in your post 2771. It's all there, you even re quote it yourself in post 2780.
I thought you, at least, were better than this.
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 16:33

Transport minister Jo Johnson has quit the government, calling for the public to have a fresh say on Brexit.

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".

It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".

He voted to remain in the EU while his brother was a leading Brexiteer.

His brother, who quit as foreign secretary in July, praised his decision, saying they were "united in dismay" at the PM's handling of the negotiations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 09 Nov 2018, 16:34

Give it a rest Jack, we are trying to have a sensible discussion here without pointless point scoring … and Yes I do realise that you were responding to Merv who was responding to you ( etc ) while we were still in concentric circle mode.

Thank you for your co-operation.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 16:34

Manoverboard wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 16:05
Gill W wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 15:13
Golden Princess wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 11:50
I dont want to deal with it. I dont want to cope with any implications of it. I dont want my family to have to deal with it and cope with it. I dont want my friends to have to deal with it cope with it. I dont want any one (including those on this forum and their families and friends) to have to deal with it or cope with it. It is a self inflicted injury to this Country we have all worked so hard for, invested so much in. What a waste. For generations to come.
I completely understand what you are saying, and I think your comments are being misconstrued by other forum members as 'fear of change'.

I want to get on with my life, in a sensible country, that is not insisting on shooting itself in the foot. I don't want to have to deal, or cope, or put my back to the wall, or keep a stiff upper lip, or invoke the Dunkirk spirit, for a crisis that is of our own making and will leave us in a worse position than we are now.
Well I don't and that is part of the reason why I invited GP to explain her fears, your explanation may be correct but I will await her own.

Your explanation regarding your good self would certainly explain the stance you have been taking on this Topic. I didn't see it coming but only because I have absolutely no fears of the future after Brexit here in the UK. There will be difficulties certainly but God knows we, well me, have lived through a number of those along the way.

How can post Brexit be as bad as the Union strife of the 70s, the rampant inflation with mortgage rates in the region of 20% plus the concerns of the Cold War with the Russians during that period ?

What on earth are you expecting ?
In a deal situation - not so much disruption to daily life, but the whole thing will drag on for ever, as they carry on at a snails pace trying to agree trade deals, trying to resolve NI so the 'backstop' won't be needed. Then when we get to the end of 2020 and they still haven't got their act together, facing a further cliff end scenario. Economic outlook will remain uncertain for several years until everything is resolved.

A no deal situation - who knows what will happen. We've never torn up all our trade deals before, or jumped out of an efficient customs system with nothing to replace it, or removed ourselves from all the European agencies we are part of, or thrown out the Good Friday agreement, or felt the need for stockpiling medicines in peacetime.

All we can do is hope for the best, but monitor the situation, and make our own individual plans for the worst.

You say you have no fears, so clearly you will not be making contingency plans. Hope it works out for you and you don't get any nasty shocks
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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 16:38

Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 16:33
Transport minister Jo Johnson has quit the government, calling for the public to have a fresh say on Brexit.

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".

It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".

He voted to remain in the EU while his brother was a leading Brexiteer.

His brother, who quit as foreign secretary in July, praised his decision, saying they were "united in dismay" at the PM's handling of the negotiations.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403
And I thought it was going to be a quiet news day!
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 09 Nov 2018, 17:00

Gill W wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 15:13

What on earth are you expecting ?
In a deal situation - not so much disruption to daily life, but the whole thing will drag on for ever, as they carry on at a snails pace trying to agree trade deals, trying to resolve NI so the 'backstop' won't be needed. Then when we get to the end of 2020 and they still haven't got their act together, facing a further cliff end scenario. Economic outlook will remain uncertain for several years until everything is resolved.

A no deal situation - who knows what will happen. We've never torn up all our trade deals before, or jumped out of an efficient customs system with nothing to replace it, or removed ourselves from all the European agencies we are part of, or thrown out the Good Friday agreement, or felt the need for stockpiling medicines in peacetime.

All we can do is hope for the best, but monitor the situation, and make our own individual plans for the worst.

You say you have no fears, so clearly you will not be making contingency plans. Hope it works out for you and you don't get any nasty shocks
Thank you Gill, yours is without doubt one of the more positive postings on the Topic for some time. :clap:

I agree with you regarding ' a deal ' situation but I am probably more optimistic than you insomuch that I believe the EU Countries will be putting considerable pressure on their negotiators long before the end of 2020. They have more to lose than we do basically and it will not be allowed to drag on for ever.

No deal …. I am yet to be convinced that will be the end result but yes it will doubtless result in considerable difficulties.

My ideal contingency Plan is for the moderate Labour Party MPs to vote with the Tories to achieve a deal rather than attempting to bring down TM, there will be plenty of time for that objective at a later date. It would be a show of unity and serve them well in the future … if they have the wisdom to do it of course. No way, at this juncture, will we be stockpiling anything but as the end of 2020 approaches and if we are no further forward as you predict then maybe I will need to change my mind ... we are however still in 2018 and it's far too early for me to panic.

:wave:


.
Last edited by Manoverboard on 09 Nov 2018, 17:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 17:31

I disagree that EU has more to lose than us. They are a massive trading block. We are just one country. It would do more damage to us than them if a trade deal wasn’t agreed.

I think it will all depend on the nature of the withdrawal deal, when it’s revealed, and how Labour whip their MPS to vote. Not to mention how DUP votes and rebel Conservatives. Nothing is certain

May must reveal her plan soon - she’s running out of time and this continuous drifting is very damaging

PS the thought of still having this conversation in November 2020, is not a good one!
Last edited by Gill W on 09 Nov 2018, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 09 Nov 2018, 18:32

"To present the nation with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos, is a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis."

Jo Johnson
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 09 Nov 2018, 19:11

Joe Boris and I all agree that the Pm has been pretty useless since day one.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 09 Nov 2018, 19:19

barney wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:11
Joe Boris and I all agree that the Pm has been pretty useless since day one.
The PM cannot be blamed for the political classes chasing self-interest at any cost to the people they are there to serve. :( :( :(

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 19:31

Ray Scully wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:19
barney wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:11
Joe Boris and I all agree that the Pm has been pretty useless since day one.
The PM cannot be blamed for the political classes chasing self-interest at any cost to the people they are there to serve. :( :( :(
Theresa is a great politician, who is uniting the country. Who else could get Barney and myself to agree?
Also, she can not be blamed for being out of depth, when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.
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Re: Brexit

Post by johnds » 09 Nov 2018, 20:04

Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:31
when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.
This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful
Last edited by johnds on 09 Nov 2018, 20:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 20:35

johnds wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 20:04
Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:31
when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.
This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful
It's a habit I picked up here. So many posts about Mrs. Krankie etc. I was just doing it to fit in.
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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 09 Nov 2018, 21:01

Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 20:35
johnds wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 20:04
Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:31
when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.
This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful
It's a habit I picked up here. So many posts about Mrs. Krankie etc. I was just doing it to fit in.
Why is it that you can never accept responsibility for your comments Jack.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 09 Nov 2018, 21:30

towny44 wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 21:01
Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 20:35
johnds wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 20:04
Jack Staff wrote:
09 Nov 2018, 19:31
when the only competition for her position was Loathsom.
This Jack is a perfect example of why I find the sneering attitude in many of your postings so distasteful.
You know perfcetly well the correct name of the lady and I see no reason why you should not grant her the courtesy of using it.

You may think you are being "clever" or even weirdly funny, I find it puerile and disrespectful
It's a habit I picked up here. So many posts about Mrs. Krankie etc. I was just doing it to fit in.
Why is it that you can never accept responsibility for your comments Jack.
?
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Onelife » 10 Nov 2018, 10:26

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vo ... ortunities


If the link is correct then it is fair to assume  that the rallying cry of ..."it can't get any worse, let's vote for change" was the thing that tipped the balace in favour of leave...

 Where Brexit takes this country is yet to be decided but if Theresa May is true to her word and strives for a fairer society in which the inequality gap is tackled properly (which l believe under her leadership it will) then Brexit will be the catalyst from which we can open doors to greater economic opportunities and better lives for all.

Lest we never forget it is those who have to endure the hardest sacrifices that hold the power to shape our destiny.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 10 Nov 2018, 15:12

A very interesting and honest article.
Good find !

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