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Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 17 Oct 2017, 18:47

I've started this specific topic as I suggested I would on the Current Affairs thread with the idea we might confine the Brexit spats here so those who wish to avoid the topic on what is, after all a Cruising forum, can do so.

Okay everyone?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jan Rosser » 17 Oct 2017, 18:56

Thank you Merv - you are a star - I shall avoid this topic like the plague ;)
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 17 Oct 2017, 20:53

My pleasure Blod, though my efforts appear to have failed already!
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 Oct 2017, 09:59

It was quite interesting listening to an EU President of something or other on Newsnight last night.

When questioned by Evan Davis, he made it abundantly clear that it really is all about the money.

Davis said about May's £20 billion offer and he said that the UK could easily afford another £20 billion.
His exact words were £20 billion is peanuts to a country like the UK.

That makes it evidently clear to me that the EU are just pitching to see what they can get out of the UK taxpayer before we go.

So, it appears that it isn't much to do with obligations or long term commitments.
It really is just 'show me the money' before you go.

It really is just a huge scam isn't it.
Probably the worlds largest ever Ponzi scheme.

Here is how it works.

You give me some money and over a period of time, I'll give you some back, in bits and bobs, as I see fit.
I'll buy lot's of shiney things with the money you've given me but you won't actually ever have a stake in the shiney things. They will always remain my property.
I'll also give some of your money to poorer people so that I'll always have a hold over them and they will have to do what I say.
I'll get you to borrow some money so that I can put it in my European Central Bank and I can then lend it back to you.

So, what's in it for you, you may well ask.

Well, in return for all this, you can trade freely and tariff free with 27 other countries.
Oh, when I say free, I actually meant his will cost you about £8 billion a year for the privilege.
You will also be allowed to take in about 3 million of Europe's unemployed.
Won't some of them benefit the UK I hear you ask?
Yes, of course some will, but about 80% will be low skilled workers looking for minimum wage jobs so that they can have the wages boosted by the UK' generous in work benefit system.

" I don't think I like the sound of all that" you say to me, " I want to leave"

Ah Ha! here is the catch

If you decide to leave, you must give me loads more money for the privilege of leaving, because if I cannot continue to fleece you, I might have to reign in my spending a bit, and we wouldn't want that would we?

"But I've given you £billions over the years. Surely that is enough"?

It's never enough.
Is it?

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 18 Oct 2017, 10:41

Somebody has to pay for the three day jolly at the end of the month when they move lock, stock and barrel to Strasbourg to stock up on their wine.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Dancing Queen » 18 Oct 2017, 11:14

Jan Rosser wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 18:56
Thank you Merv - you are a star - I shall avoid this topic like the plague ;)
You and me both Jan :crazy:
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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 18 Oct 2017, 11:25

I have been saying all along that it is about money - the UK is a net contributor so when we go there is a big hole to be filled which means that our contribution is our biggest negotiating tool - always has been and always will be. The problem that whichever Government is doing the negotiations has is convincing the UK public that it is in our best/only interest to keep paying.

The other problem is that the EU are incapable of negotiating anything (the could not negotiate themselves out of a paper bag!) - all they know is how to "bully" countries into accepting whatever it is on their terms, basically a "take it or leave it" attitude, and now they have met their match they don't know how to handle it so revert to type.


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Re: Brexit

Post by CaroleF » 18 Oct 2017, 12:11

Now I'm definitely not suggesting another referendum - Heaven forbid! However, I wonder how many people would vote to us just to leave and let the EU get on with it, give them nothing and say, Well that's what happens when you try to force us into giving you yet more money - you've had enough out of us!

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Re: Brexit

Post by qbman1 » 18 Oct 2017, 12:17

Dancing Queen wrote:
18 Oct 2017, 11:14
Jan Rosser wrote:
17 Oct 2017, 18:56
Thank you Merv - you are a star - I shall avoid this topic like the plague ;)
You and me both Jan :crazy:
I'm out too - especially if this one goes round and round in never decreasing circles like the last one !

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 18 Oct 2017, 12:24

I think barney has summed up my attitude to the EU superbly. :thumbup:
Not bad for a Gills supporter. ;)

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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 22 Oct 2017, 09:47

Time for a "conspiracy theory"

Everything that is going on now is nothing more than postulating as the deal on how much we are going to be paying for access to the single market has already been agreed. Everyone is trying to "save face" and not make the announcement until the last possible moment.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 22 Oct 2017, 18:23

Interesting theory. Should we open a poll on the number?

I heard someone from the EU last week saying it wasn't enough for the UK to meet our legal commitments! Hmmm.

But in the last few days it's become clear no one on either side wants a "no deal" outcome. Which rather fits with David's idea.
Last edited by Mervyn and Trish on 22 Oct 2017, 18:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 25 Oct 2017, 09:59

Is it just me or do the EU keep moving the goal posts? Up till recently Barnier was saying we had to agree the divorce payment before talks on any new trade deal could begin, now he seems to be saying that trade talks cannot start until after we leave the EU in March 2019!!!!
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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 25 Oct 2017, 10:08

towny44 wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 09:59
do the EU keep moving the goal posts?
But do you not have to have some goal posts before you are able to move them?

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 25 Oct 2017, 11:51

On trade the EU knows it needs us as much as we need them but neither side wants to be seen as backing down. The EU have a further concern that any deal made with UK, if it is seen as favourable, would give the green light to others in the EU breaking away on similar terms.

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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 25 Oct 2017, 12:55

oldbluefox wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:51
The EU have a further concern that any deal made with UK, if it is seen as favourable, would give the green light to others in the EU breaking away on similar terms.
Which is why we will be paying more or less the same amount to the EU that we are paying now for access to the "free" market.

Why nobody can/will say that we are going to pay £300m a week for this access and to the customs union and then get on with sorting out the "nitty gritty" I don't know - well actually I do, neither the Labour Party nor the UK electorate would stand for it!"

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 25 Oct 2017, 15:14

david63 wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:55
oldbluefox wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:51
The EU have a further concern that any deal made with UK, if it is seen as favourable, would give the green light to others in the EU breaking away on similar terms.
Which is why we will be paying more or less the same amount to the EU that we are paying now for access to the "free" market.

Why nobody can/will say that we are going to pay £300m a week for this access and to the customs union and then get on with sorting out the "nitty gritty" I don't know - well actually I do, neither the Labour Party nor the UK electorate would stand for it!"
Just because you are now officially an "Old Codger" does not entitle you to be such an old grouch. ;)
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 25 Oct 2017, 18:39

What I struggle with is Barnier says one thing, then Juncker says another, then Merkel says another, then it all starts again.

The message changes daily.

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Re: Brexit

Post by gfwgfw » 25 Oct 2017, 19:12

Hey Ho

A very late decision for the Giant and my Ferrets

We all voted "Leave"

Now I consider it a major slap legs error

Lubboo all

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Re: Brexit

Post by GillD46 » 26 Oct 2017, 06:40

gfwgfw wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 19:12
Hey Ho

A very late decision for the Giant and my Ferrets

We all voted "Leave"


gfw
I didn’t!
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Re: Brexit

Post by Frank Manning » 26 Oct 2017, 08:40

Nor me. The way these clowns in parliament are behaving I'm even more glad that I voted remain. When it is all over It wont have changed the underlying factors which prompted the brexitears.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 26 Oct 2017, 09:50

There may be some clowns in Parliament but it seems there are many more jokers in the EU, the whole Brexit negotiations are begining to resemble a Monty Python script.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 26 Oct 2017, 11:03

The reality is the EU don't want us to leave.

Germany doesn't want to have to pick up a bigger bill.

The recipient countries don't want to lose money.

It's all about the cash. They haven't a clue how to balance the budget without us.

Hence the latest suggestion we could change our minds if we wanted to and the heavily EU driven OED's claim that it would all be alright if we had another referendum.

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 26 Oct 2017, 11:53

Apart from the cash they get and somewhere to export their goods do we honestly believe they are really bothered about the UK? Judging by the attitude of their negotiating team I don't think so.
I saw this which, whilst it amused me I also felt a raw sense of irony....................
22554998_1426838497414387_6006923112118215512_n.jpg
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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 26 Oct 2017, 12:18

It does sum up the overarching, and often pointless, bureaucracy that is the EU, which was one of the many reasons I voted leave.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jack Staff » 26 Oct 2017, 13:05

oldbluefox wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:53
Apart from the cash they get and somewhere to export their goods do we honestly believe they are really bothered about the UK? Judging by the attitude of their negotiating team I don't think so.
I saw this which, whilst it amused me I also felt a raw sense of irony....................

22554998_1426838497414387_6006923112118215512_n.jpg
Shame it is just Brexiter propaganda and completely untrue.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35962999
Testiculi ad Brexitum. XLVIII:C

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 26 Oct 2017, 13:54

It's in today's Daily Mail so will probably be castigated as a bunch of lies but they printed an article about many of the Heads of our publically funded Universities, on one page it demonstrated that many are raving lefties and on another that they are robust Remoaners.

Nothing wrong with these ' Heads of ' having ideals that may or may not coincide with my own views but I thought it arrogant and pompous to say the least that they dared to encourage discussion and debate on the benefits of remaining in the EU yet refused to allow any discussion at all regarding the benefits of leaving.

Their role is surely to educate our students not to fill their minds with biased propaganda ?


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Re: Brexit

Post by Frank Manning » 26 Oct 2017, 14:46

It may of course be just that; Daily Mail hysteria. When I was teaching at Uni all the lecturers encouraged the students to read a broad spectrum about the topics which were part of the course and to develop their own arguments accordingly. In many degrees an understanding of geopolitics is fully justified and of great benefit to people hoping to pursue careers in multi national and or exporting companies. The Wail is being as hypocritical as ever in trying to influence the development of free and reflective learning by pillorying anyone who doesn't agree with their own view.

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 26 Oct 2017, 15:03

Jack Staff wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 13:05
oldbluefox wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 11:53
Apart from the cash they get and somewhere to export their goods do we honestly believe they are really bothered about the UK? Judging by the attitude of their negotiating team I don't think so.
I saw this which, whilst it amused me I also felt a raw sense of irony....................

22554998_1426838497414387_6006923112118215512_n.jpg
Shame it is just Brexiter propaganda and completely untrue.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35962999
Did I say it was true? You take me too seriously!!! :lol:
There's probably more truth in that than George Brown's prophetical Armageddon budget to be put in place as an emergency if we voted to leave. And he was being serious. :roll:
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 27 Oct 2017, 15:33

Frank Manning wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 14:46
It may of course be just that; Daily Mail hysteria. When I was teaching at Uni all the lecturers encouraged the students to read a broad spectrum about the topics which were part of the course and to develop their own arguments accordingly. In many degrees an understanding of geopolitics is fully justified and of great benefit to people hoping to pursue careers in multi national and or exporting companies. The Wail is being as hypocritical as ever in trying to influence the development of free and reflective learning by pillorying anyone who doesn't agree with their own view.
Like you Frank, I get my news fro various sources and it's amazing how the same story is covered differently.

I'm aware of confirmation bias and the need to sell papers so fully understand the media's starting point.

I will say that the 'left' seem ever so slightly obsessed with 'right wing' papers like the Daily Mail and The Express.
It should be taken as a given that they will pander to their readership, as does the Guardian and Independent, but on the other side of the coin.

I do have a concern about the state funded BBC but the others can do what they blooming well like as far as I'm concerned.

As for teaching at schools and Uni, it's a well known and very well established fact that most teachers are idealists and as idealists, are looking for the perfect world.
Most teachers that I've met have never really left school and as such, retain an almost infantile outlook on the world.

Any sensible person would agree that a socialist utopia would be wonderful, if somewhat unachievable.

I was a raving socialist as a young man basically because I had bug*er all.
As I acquired a bit of wealth, my politics slowly changed.
I'd now say that I'm left wing at heart but my wallet is 100% Tory.

I voted for the UK to leave the EU, not based on the hysterical screechings of any right wing newspaper, but because I did my own research and came to my own conclusions.
Much of which was denounced as hystrionics by the remain campaign will show to have been the truth as time goes by.

The latest EU commission dictate is to introduce equivalence in taxation, by qualified majority voting.
So, no more right of veto for Luxembourg, Ireland and Malta.
To say that they are unhappy is an understatement.
The times are a'changing.

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Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 27 Oct 2017, 15:57

Latest story according to the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817) is that the European Investment Bank owes the UK around £3b but we cannot have it back for 35 after we have left - sounds like a good negotiating point to me.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Frank Manning » 27 Oct 2017, 17:06

I'll be honest Barney in 10 years teaching at Uni I did not hear a single political point for or against the left or the right. It is true that my personal politics moved left, while I was there but not because of any influence from other lecturers but because I was telling students to read widely and develop ideas, and at the same time I began to question the motives of many of our politicians. I would never vote for a Labour party led by Jeremy Corbyn or his cronies, but neither can I vote for my MP because he is I believe PPS to Boris Johnson for whom I have no time. Even less, because, if true that he is reported to have told Lord Adonis that he believed we should Remain, but he could not bring himself to back the same side as Cameron, then that is very petty self interest before Country. There are some good politicians but unfortunately they are drowned out by the hysteria emanating from the extremes of right and left.

I am too old to worry too much about it. It is my grandson I fear for. He has his life ahead of him, and I would like him to live in a country with a sensible balance and a long term economic plan for the future, where all the people have opportunities, not just the few. At the moment it is all a mess.

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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 27 Oct 2017, 17:35

I agree that it's a bit of a mess at he moment Frank, but that is mainly due to the incompetence of this administration when handling the negotiations.
I also believe that the long term situation will be much better for our country outside of the EU, if handled correctly.

Our youngsters will have a fighting chance if we train our own and manage migration properly.

I was reading the other day that the UK population was 45 million just after the war.
It's now projected to be 70 million by the end of the decade.
That's a pretty hefty increase in anybody's book.

GDP is important, but not at any cost. We seem to have lost sight of that.

I grew up being in the EU and hardly gave it a thought until the announcement of the referendum.
It was just there.
Then I started doing a lot of research and didn't really like what I was finding out, from the horrendous level of waste to the discriminatory CAP.
The more I found out, the less I like it.

Sure, things are going to be different.
Maybe travel into Europe will be slightly more difficult, but I doubt it.
I was chatting to a friend of mine who works for TUI.
They are in a bit of turmoil because as a company, they should be working on holidays for 2019, but cannot be sure that planes will fly, unhindered into Europe because of the Openskies agreement.
So, do they not sell them?
Do they prioritise holidays outside the EU?
Will the European hoteliers be happy with a massive drop in rooms sold?
Who will take up the slack?
These things cannot and will not be left until the last minute because these holidays are sold a year in advance.
Imagine Juncker saying to the minister for tourism in Spain, sorry senor, but 13 million Brits won't be visiting in 2019 because we cannot guarantee flights.
This is a massive part of their income.

As anyone knows, ultimately, the customer is King.
The EU countries will have no choice but to agree a deal because they will lose out massively if they don't.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 27 Oct 2017, 17:59

Sorry Frank but you cannot claim that any newspaper is wholly wrong just because you have an alternative view.

The Mail may actually have been right on this occasion and, for me anyway, it is entirely possible that some ( albeit not all ) of the universities ( red brick or so called ) did prohibit debate aimed at supporting Brexit ... regardless of how it used to work in a bygone era.


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Re: Brexit

Post by Frank Manning » 27 Oct 2017, 19:04

I think if that were the case more of the students might have turned out to vote. I would be surprised in the extreme if a university lecturer prohibited debate. Quite the opposite, indeed a students work needs to contain balanced arguments in its development and all supported by references which the marker checks for correctness.

There is an unhealthy undertone reminiscent of the extremes of political dogma in demanding that names of academics be revealed lest they be departing from "the approved script".

The further into the mire that the process goes, the more hysterical are the screams such as "Traitors" from the far right who fear that the people might come to realise that they have been duped. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Hence as the Tories move right Labour moves left. Beware the electoral consequences of that Mr Rees Mogg et al because if Corbyn gets into No 10 you may find a different kind of message being required.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 27 Oct 2017, 19:45

If Mr Corbyn gets into No. 10 then I may be applying for Greek citizenship!

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 27 Oct 2017, 19:54

You may be in a a fairly large queue Merv all trying to escape in that case.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 27 Oct 2017, 22:03

We could charter a very large cruise ship!

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Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 27 Oct 2017, 22:13

Thanks you lot!! Going to bed with the thought of Corbyn, McDonnell, Thornberry, Abbott, Chakrabarti & Co in my mind how am I expected to sleep? If you thought Brexit was bad wait until that little lot get in.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 28 Oct 2017, 09:22

After Brexit you wont be permitted to take up Greek Citizenship ... according to the Daily Telegraph :lol:


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Re: Brexit

Post by Frank Manning » 28 Oct 2017, 10:27

At least the 'Torygraph' isn't fixated on 'pert derrier's, side boobs', etc Moby. I would not choose an eu country if Corbyn or Rees Mogg drove me out. Canada, thats the place.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 29 Oct 2017, 09:55

Frank Manning wrote:
28 Oct 2017, 10:27
At least the 'Torygraph' isn't fixated on 'pert derrier's, side boobs', etc Moby. I would not choose an eu country if Corbyn or Rees Mogg drove me out. Canada, thats the place.
Are you suggesting that Daily Mail readers subscribe for a glimpse of a heaving bazoom ?

The paper for the common man eh, thick as two short planks and Brexit voters for sure ... an interesting theory Frank :lol:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 29 Oct 2017, 10:05

If the Mail has a p3 it passed me by!

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 29 Oct 2017, 10:21

I doubt anyone buys a paper anymore for page 3 titillation, Game of Thrones provides that in spades.
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Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 31 Oct 2017, 16:46

What do others think about the three stooges taking themselves to Brussels to speak to the EU chief negotiator Barnier, on behalf of the UK

So, we had Ken Clarke who should be put out to grass by now. He was a good chancellor in his day, but that day has long passed.
Then Nick Clegg, who was soundly rejected by his constituents but is no doubt hanging around and waiting for another chance to spout his rubbish.
Last but by all means least, Lord Adonis, who has never be elected to a single position in his life.

I suppose the real question is why would Barnier waste his time discussing Brexit with has beens and the never were?

Clegg said that they were there to discuss an alternative view ????

No wonder the EU can't figure out what is going on in the UK.
The PM should immediately withdraw the Tory whip from Clarke and tell Barnier to ignore the other two clowns as they speak for no one.

This country has become a farce in the eyes of others. Why can't these halfwit Remoaner protesters see the damage that they are doing to the UK negotiating stance.
Some lightweight nobody from Finland was on TV today saying that many abroad still think that Brexit won't happen because of idiots like this, spouting opinions as if they are facts.

Such a shame that May won the Tory leadership unopposed.
This country needs a leader at a time like this, and that she ain't, unfortunately.

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Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 31 Oct 2017, 16:57

A bit harsh on Theresa Barney, she was looking good until the election but without a majority she's never going to rival the iron lady. And its no good blaming her for the election when lots of Tories, me included, thought it was a great idea to cash in on such a commanding opinion poll lead. Could it be that all the polls were run by bremoaners who deliberately set out to mislead her, or is that a conspiracy theory too far? ;)
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Mervyn and Trish
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 31 Oct 2017, 17:05

Latest news is the Bank of England predicting job losses in the City. Will this be their first prediction to actually be right?
Last edited by Mervyn and Trish on 31 Oct 2017, 17:06, edited 1 time in total.


Frank Manning
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Re: Brexit

Post by Frank Manning » 31 Oct 2017, 17:42

No good you guys blaming remoaners for the Tories terrible election campaign. They misjudged the whole thing. Even I would prefer a stronger government than we now have. The current situation brexit or no brexit is bad for the country.
I am not going to get into one of these round and round arguments, they will only waste time that I don't have. You keep patting each other on the back and I'll stay off the forum.

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Mervyn and Trish
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Re: Brexit

Post by Mervyn and Trish » 31 Oct 2017, 19:10

No doubt Frank the election outcome was the result of two things. Uncosted unaffordable bribes by Labour. And spectacular own goals by the Tories. Both those pro and anti Brexit were entitled to the choices they made. And I agree the result helps no one.

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Manoverboard
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Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 01 Nov 2017, 17:08

Frank Manning wrote:
31 Oct 2017, 17:42
No good you guys blaming remoaners for the Tories terrible election campaign. They misjudged the whole thing. Even I would prefer a stronger government than we now have. The current situation brexit or no brexit is bad for the country.
I am not going to get into one of these round and round arguments, they will only waste time that I don't have. You keep patting each other on the back and I'll stay off the forum.
As a Moderator I would advise ....

Frank, we would obviously prefer to see you ' remain ' on the Site but views on Brexit will not be based on the preferences of one Member, if you feel that you may be offended by any of the postings then it may be best if you don't read the ' Brexit ' Forum.

Kindly note, in case you missed it, the Mods will meanwhile ensure that Brexit related matters will be confined to the Brexit Forum, any comments posted elsewhere will be deleted.

OK :wave:

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