Venice bans large ships ...

[Kendhni]

Good video goutyman, so really the ship docks in the same place, it just takes a different route?

[oldbluefox]

I remain unconvinced that it is the fault of the large ships which is causing the damage although you never know what is happening beneath the waves. However since cruise ships are usually towed by tug I wonder what environmental damage is actually being caused. From the times I have been to Venice I would be more convinced that the majority of the damage is caused by the wash from the vaporettos and other small craft. If the Venetian authorities are serious about the impact of marine craft on the buildings maybe they also ought to look at imposing a speed limit on all craft around the city.

Cynically I see the cruise trade being used as the fall guy whilst the true culprits carry on unhindered. It will of course pacify the purists who object to the incongruity of large cruise ships passing close by.

[Dark Knight]

did a bit more reading on this last night
it seems that when there are up to 10 large ships in the area, the water displacement of over a million tonnes cause downward pressure into a shallow. 10 mt, water course, the water is then forced into and under the foundations, causing the damage
this is added to by the surface wash of the vaporettes whizzing about the place, but they cause surface wash and do not effect the foundations

which causes the greater damage is unclear but I would doubt the little boats displace as much water as 10 huge cruise ships

I remain on the side of preservation rather than how it will affect a few thousand day trippers

[lioness]

I would agree, it's not the wash from little boats that does any damage, but the massive displacement of these big ships.

[Onelife]

As I said in a previous post I don’t think it would be such a hardship not to sail along the Grand Canal and would be happy to take the proposed alternative route.

I understand that billions have been invested in the lagoon sea defences, the “Mose gates” being the latest attempt to hold back the sea levels. If we are talking about water dismemberment then allowing any ships into what in effect is locked water must contribute to greater water dismemberment for the whole lagoon let alone that water which runs through the Grand Canal?

Help me out someone

Regards

OL

[Manoverboard]

The Cruise Ships do not go along the Grand Canal ... does that help at all ?

[Onelife]

OK, I got the bloody name wrong but a canal is a canal in my book, beside we’re only talking a couple of hundred yards so stop being so finicky ....Now Teddy what about my theory about water dismemberment?

[towny44]

OL, never heard of water dismemberment, if in fact there is such a thing, but I came across this article which does tend to give the other angle, and also shows that not every Venetian is opposed to the cruise ship traffic.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... enice.html
I guess this is as biased in its way as the other anti cruise ship articles are in their way, but perhaps it may help by giving an alternative perspective.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Even with the sea gates closed, which of course they cannot be by definition when a ship is arriving, the amount of water enclosed by the lagoon is enormous compared to the displacement of a cruise ship. And even if there are ten a day they are not all moving at the same time.

In any case the alternative route is still within the lagoon.

As for small boats not doing damage? Just tell that to the people maintaining our own canals. Enormous damage is done by very small boats travelling too fast. Tupperware cruisers going at speed do far more damage than 70 foot narrowboats travelling slowly. That damage is not just on the surface, it is below water undermining the banks - or in the case of Venice the foundations.

By all means, it is their city, if they want to ban or limit cruise ships it is their decision. But unless they also deal with the water buses they will not even start to solve the problem, which as others have pointed out has, in any case been going on long before motorised boats went near the place.

Even a total ban on all cruise ships will not stop Venice sinking. They need a better plan.

[Onelife]

OL, never heard of water dismemberment, if in fact there is such a thing, but I came across this article which does tend to give the other angle, and also shows that not every Venetian is opposed to the cruise ship traffic.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... enice.html
I guess this is as biased in its way as the other anti cruise ship articles are in their way, but perhaps it may help by giving an alternative perspective.

Hi John,

You are indeed correct...there is no such thing as water dismemberment and certainly not in the context that I was referring to it... (What I meant to say was displacement) I’m afraid comprehension has never been my strong point... but then it’s never easy to write legibly when everything you read, reads differently every time you read it.

I must try harder

I read the same article you have highlighted and at the end of the day the future of Venice will ultimately be determined by how long those living there are prepared to keep paling out the water ...once it become uneconomical to do so then Venice will sink without a trace.

Regards

Keith

[Onelife]

Even with the sea gates closed, which of course they cannot be by definition when a ship is arriving, the amount of water enclosed by the lagoon is enormous compared to the displacement of a cruise ship. And even if there are ten a day they are not all moving at the same time.

In any case the alternative route is still within the lagoon.

As for small boats not doing damage? Just tell that to the people maintaining our own canals. Enormous damage is done by very small boats travelling too fast. Tupperware cruisers going at speed do far more damage than 70 foot narrowboats travelling slowly. That damage is not just on the surface, it is below water undermining the banks - or in the case of Venice the foundations.

By all means, it is their city, if they want to ban or limit cruise ships it is their decision. But unless they also deal with the water buses they will not even start to solve the problem, which as others have pointed out has, in any case been going on long before motorised boats went near the place.

Even a total ban on all cruise ships will not stop Venice sinking. They need a better plan.

M&T

Just a thought...If they kept the Mose Gates closed permanently or only opening them when the tides were at their lowest could they not introduce a lock system for the transport of smaller fright ships and allow cruise ships to dock somewhere else? (If indeed there is somewhere practical) Transporting tourists in by coach would be no different to what they do at most tourist destinations.

Regards

Keith

[Mervyn and Trish]

I'm sure they could dock cruise ships outside the immediate area and bus passengers in, but part of Venice's appeal is it has no traffic, other than the end where it joins the mainland.

The bus station is already very busy. I can't believe the extra traffic to bring in the passengers from the above mentioned 10 ships on busy days (maybe 20,000 passengers = a lot of buses) will be hugely welcome either.

[Quizzical Bob]

OK, I got the bl**dy name wrong but a canal is a canal in my book, beside we’re only talking a couple of hundred yards so stop being so finicky ....Now Teddy what about my theory about water dismemberment?

Giudecca canal. Not actually a canal, more a channel really. The Italian word canale is the same for both.

[Manoverboard]

Use the rails ... and then the shuttle boat else local boats, if required, but keeping these monsters out has to be the way to go.



Regards Teddy x

[Kaziebelle]

Use the rails ... and then the shuttle boat else local boats, if required, but keeping these monsters out has to be the way to go.



Regards Teddy x

It's ok for us as tourists to say what we want or need but when all is said and done it is not us who make the final decisions.a few weeks ago we went to the cruise show at the nec Birmingham and whilst there we asked various companies if there was any truth in the rumours that Venice would ban the ships and was told that no way would they ever ban the ships from Venice as they were worth far too much to the local businesses.well in view of what has happened,where did that theory go?

[Boris+]

Hi Mervyn,

In your post above (no, I am not in anyway contradicting what you wrote) you said that 10 ships meant about 20,000 passengers.

Last time we were in Venice, there were 9 ships in but the local people we spoke to in Venice said that they had been told it would be 52,000 passengers.

So, I wondered about this and then came to the conclusion they must be adding in absolutely each and every crew member and rounding the figure up a tad!
This 52,000 figure had been published somewhere, and many of the locals had latched on to it.

However, you know and I know that not every member of crew gets ashore all day, and many don't even get a part-day ashore - so just where did this figure come from I wonder? The impression which we got was quite clear that every day that there were going to be quite a high number of ships in, the locals were given an alert (or warning) from someone publishing the number of cruise passengers for that particular day.

Em

[Mervyn and Trish]

Hi Em,

Yes, I think they do protest too much. I was working on the assumption of an average of 2,000 passengers per ship, plus say 1,000 crew, and assuming perhaps 2/3 go ashore.

To arrive at 52,000 for 9 ships they're assuming an average of 5,777 persons per ship and that they all go ashore. That is to assume every ship is bigger than anything P&O possesses and all are left like the Marie Celeste. Even the new Britannia won't have that many. They're talking Oasis of the Seas proportions. I'm not sure there are 9 that big in the World and it would be some day if they all arrived in Venice at the same time!

Still as I've already said, it's their island and if they want to use dodgy statistics to make their case that's up to them.

I do wonder, as an aside, if they don't want that many, or that size, of ships to turn up, why did they build facilities to accommodate them all? If they, for example, said we will have only two berths and highest bidder gets to use them on a given day market forces would sort it out.
M

[Boris+]

Hi Mervyn,

On the day that we were there - when the published figure was 52,000 - here is an outline of which ships were in:

Queen Victoria, Norwegian Jade, MSC Divina, one RCI (but not repeat not a huge one), two Star Clippers, two Azamaras and one other - but not a huge one.

Certainly it felt that the largest ship in port was the MSC Divina.

Oh well, that was then, this is now - the Venetians can sort themselves out a tad before we go back there, and even then we may just stay on board.

Em

[Onelife]

Just another thought...if as we are led to believe Global warming is taking place shouldn’t the seas levels start to fall due to vaporization, which would then lead to the air becoming more humid? If this is correct and we stick around long enough the sea levels in the in the lagoon should in theory start to fall?

Problem solved?

[Quizzical Bob]

Just another thought...if as we are led to believe Global warming is taking place shouldn’t the seas levels start to fall due to vaporization, which would then lead to the air becoming more humid? If this is correct and we stick around long enough the sea levels in the in the lagoon should in theory start to fall?

Problem solved?

'tother way round, I'm afraid, expanding oceans, melting ice caps and all that sort of thing.

[towny44]

Just another thought...if as we are led to believe Global warming is taking place shouldn’t the seas levels start to fall due to vaporization, which would then lead to the air becoming more humid? If this is correct and we stick around long enough the sea levels in the in the lagoon should in theory start to fall?

Problem solved?

'tother way round, I'm afraid, expanding oceans, melting ice caps and all that sort of thing.

Nope, I agree with OL, global warming equals everywhere becomes a rain forest with 100% humidity and most of the oceans' water trapped in huge dense cloud formations, or falling as rain, or running down millions of new rivers only to evaporate again before it hits the sea; and Venice becomes landlocked so no cruise ships can sail past St Marks, as a result no tourists and Venice becomes bankrupt.

[Ray B]

An appeal by the ports cruise community to lift the ban has been won until June 12 when the next scheduled hearing is to be held.One of the issues being, routes for the ships have yet to be determined.

Ray

[Dark Knight]

apparently the cut off date has been put back to next year?

[ITWA Travel Writer]

There is a major ecological problem, which has not been addressed and which appears to be the backbone of the appeal made to the regional administrative court by “The Venezia Terminal Passeggeri, which Ray refers to as the ports cruise community.

This is the resultant damage which dredging within a shallow lagoon can cause and which is now widely accepted as being a major factor in shallow lagoon marine ecology.

The court appears to have dismissed the UNESCO research document, following extensive hydrological research, carried out in the early 2000’s, which stated: “If a deep water channel were to be dredged to the south of Giudecca Island or the inlet widened and deepened at the Lido Pellestrina with a deep-water channel dredged within the western lagoon, both leading to the terminal, this will affect the hydrology of the lagoon resulting in vast areas of the lagoon silting and eventually returning the lagoon to mudflats.”

Where money making is concerned, everything else becomes of little consequence. MSC announced yesterday that they are going to build two mega container ships, sorry, cruise liners each with a 5700 passenger capacity. Imagine them entering the canal and the displacement they would create!!

As to towney44, John’s comment, I don’t think that it is even worthy of comment!!

[Onelife]

Hi Travel Writer, John,

Towny44, John's comment is unworthy of comment?

Hmm!

He gave his opinion and rationale as to why my suggestion might be plausable and if you believe the opinions of Researchers from England's University of East Anglia's School of Environmental Sciences then it would seem his comments are worthy of consideration (l don't believe he stated a time scale in which these climatic changes will take place)?

"Earth will only be around for another 1.75 billion, according to a study published in the journal Astrobiology. Researchers from England's University of East Anglia's School of Environmental Sciences say that the sun will get hotter over time, drying up Earth's oceans. Andrew Rushby, the study's lead author, put it bluntly: "It will get progressively hotter and there's nothing we can do about it"

Regards

keith.