Please Define Disabled?

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Please Define Disabled?

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Post by ITWA Travel Writer »

What does it mean to be disabled? Is it different than having a disability? What does it mean to view oneself as such, and how does the cruise industry view and interpret the word disabled?

I know that I have opened a can of worms with this question, but I believe that it is so important that it is worthy of an in-depth study and lots of debate.

I have a couple of examples which I will post later after I see what response I get to my question.
John

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#2

Post by Andrea S »

My Son and Daughter were both diagnosed with a terminal illness. In my eyes they became 'disabled' when they were no longer able to do even simple things for themselves. A disability is something people have often had since birth and in many cases it can be controlled . A severe disability would mean the person needing carers with them but I am quite sure there are many people with a disability who can holiday on their own and also take part in activities.
In my own case , my Daughter was never well enough to go away but I managed several holidays abroad with my Son. He needed 2 trained careers bytv


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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#3

Post by Andrea S »

May I add my Sons needs were too complex and at no time would I have taken him on a cruise.

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Andrea S,

Your answer, especially the statement about your sons needs being too complex to have taken him on a cruise, is exactly along the line that I expected. However, this raises the question as to what facilities do cruise ships actually provide.

The common conception is that the terms, ‘adapted cabin’ and or ‘wheelchair accessible’ mean that some cabins have been designed and set aside for the needs of disabled passengers. But what adaptions have been made?

Is it only the dimensions that have been altered to allow for better movement of a wheelchair and a few grab rails provided within the bathroom, or has the bathroom been designed as a full wet room to meet the “Margaret Blackwood” standard. Has a power lift been provided to assist a person with severe mobility problems? Have power lift tracks been provided within the ceiling construction to allow better movement of a person between areas within the cabin. Has the balcony threshold been recessed to allow a power or manual wheelchair access to and fro, without help?

P&O last year brought in more restrictions on motorised scooters, as used by the disabled, so someone appears to be contemplating the problems of disability.

There are so many questions but very few answers.

In this day and age the question should be, if not then why not. Surly the disabled, those with minor disabilities to those with major disabilities, have the same rights as all the rest of us. So why does the cruise industry not do more?

P&O have a great opportunity here with the Britannia still being in the process of fitting out. Out of the 1837 cabins on-board Britannia, there are 25 cabins designated as adapted cabins. Surly some of the 25 could be upgraded to handle those with more serious disabilities?

What do you think?
John

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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In my opinion the Cruise Industry does not attempt to cater for the majority of people who are disabled, nor is it possible for it to do so. Passengers can in some cases no doubt board with a carer but the responsibility for the disabled person(s) rests with that passenger or their carer rather than with the Cruise Line bar an operational emergency on board the ship.

The range of disabilities is enormous of course and only those passengers who for example need a wheelchair, use disposible medical products or require specific food menus etc can reasonably expect inclusive direct assistance from the Cruise Lines.

Being ' disabled ' in this context therefore means a passenger who, with or without a carer, is independent albeit with a disability that will not require the Cruise Operator to provide nursing staff to cater for that person or their disability ... ish.
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Manoverboard, I cannot disagree with your opinion in general. However, the cruise industry makes very limited provision for the needs of the disabled.

Let me give you two examples. On my last cruise, a 22 day MSC Fantasia Grand Cruise from Santos, Brazil to Venice, Italy, there were two couples on-board, that I knew, with very different disabilities:

The husband of the first couple had a leg amputated following the Falklands War and had an artificial limb. To all visual appearance Keith walked as normally as I did. When they booked the cruise, they booked an aft stern facing cabin, for like me this was where they preferred to be. However, just prior to sailing MSC noticed that they had ticked the box as being disabled, so decided to upgrade them to a wheelchair accessible cabin, mid ships. Not what they wanted at all. All they needed was a seat for the shower!! The MSC booking staffs appear not to understand that disabilities range across a wide spectrum. Happily it was eventually resolved, on-board.

The second couple were travelling with a very severely disabled young adult, their daughter, who was upper and lower body paralysed, but who could control her motorized wheelchair by a mouth tube, very skilfully. We kept bumping into them all over the ship. Severely disabled as she was, she was no burden to anyone. But here’s the rub!! Katarina’s father told me that when they got on-board the ship they were met by the customer services manager Marcello Ria who apologised that they did not have any cabins fitted out with lifting equipment. This was no problem as he and his wife were used to lifting. However, Marcello said that he had ensured that two male cabin attendants and one female attendant had volunteered to be available if and whenever the family needed assistance. He insisted that they be made use of so that all could enjoy their holiday. The dining room staff also went out of their way to assist where possible.

I spoke to Neven Zdunic, the Hotel Manager about this and he said that he was going to raise this matter at the highest level within MSC.

Two situations, a booking staff who were obviously not trained, or who did not understand the needs of the disabled and a ship’s crew who were exemplary in their attitude.
John

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#7

Post by oldbluefox »

It must actually be very difficult for the holiday industry to define 'disability' as there are varying degrees of disability and individuals' views of what a disability is can vary widely.

From my own observations I feel cruise lines go out of their way to help when needed. However it would be interesting to hear the views of other members who are either disabled, or who have disabled relatives/friends with them to hear what their first hand opinions are.

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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One area that most cruise lines, and also most hotel, do not make allowance for are those with hearing difficulties, which in an emergency could mean the difference between life and death. It should be mandatory that anyone, even if accompanied, should have to make it known that they have hearing difficulties and then appropriate action can be taken if necessary.

On one cruise ship several years ago (RCCL I think) they had a hearing disability case which they lent you. It contained a telephone amplifier, a gizzmo that went on the back of the cabin door which flashed if anyone knocked and something else that I cannot remember. This is all readily available, and cheap, bits of kit that all ships should use.


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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#9

Post by Andrea S »

Perhaps I am over sensitive here but I only took my Son on holidays where I knew he would feel comfortable. My personal view is that there are many areas on a cruise ship that would be inaccessible for someone who has no mobility. From cabins to leisure areas. Dining room to bars these are areas which can get quite crowded. In the event of an emergency it would be almost impossible to have facilities to help them without putting other lives at risk.

I think as the OP you are questioning the booking agents and their knowledge with regards to the needs of someone who is disabled or has a disability . Also whether cruise ships should do more.
When booking a holiday it was my responsibility to ensure that it was suitable and I did a lot of research to make sure all needs could be catered for. The booking agent would only be booking something I had specifically chosen. From cruise ships I have been on and comments I have read I think there is quite a good balance to cater for different needs.

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by towny44 »

Following a stroke my wife has no use in her right arm and limited mobility in her right leg, she is able to walk short distances using a quad stick but outside the stateroom she uses a wheelchair. So she probably fits comfortably in the middle of the standard cruise line definition of disabled and needing an accessible cabin.
As regards the suitability of accessible cabins, we find those on P&O's grand class ships and on Celebrity's Eclipse do provide adequate facilities, but we still always need to request some sort of chair for her to use in the bathroom whilst she uses the wash basin, which is far easier for her than trying to use her wheelchair.
Around the ship, tiled, marble, composite or other solid floors are by far the best for wheelchairs while carpets are the worst, except for those metal retaining strips around the carpet sections on P&O's open decks, which are extremely uncomfortable for wheelchair users. Accessability around the decks, lounges and entertainment venues is variable, and can be made almost impossible by other AB passengers.
So yes things could be improved but they are certainly far better on the newer ships and without these improvements we would probably find cruising too diifficult.
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#11

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ITWA Travel Writer wrote:
Manoverboard, I cannot disagree with your opinion in general. However, the cruise industry makes very limited provision for the needs of the disabled.

Let me give you two examples. On my last cruise, a 22 day MSC Fantasia Grand Cruise from Santos, Brazil to Venice, Italy, there were two couples on-board, that I knew, with very different disabilities .....
John,

I am forever in awe regarding seriously disabled people achieving things that not so many years ago would have resulted in their being parked in front of the telly 24/7. ' Jess2010 ' for example cruises on P&O with her guide dog for goodness sakes :clap:

However in the cases you mention the first would, should, have been resolved by the passenger requesting NOT to be upgraded and the second for the customer to contact the Health Department of the Cruise Line prior to travel. In the case of P&O they ensure one's requirements are communicated to all Carnival Lines .... have no idea how things work on MSC specifically but best practices should, in an ideal World, solve all such difficulties and misunderstandings.

ps ... please feel free to call me MoB or Moby
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by Dark Knight »

I think first and foremost you need a common level of "what is a disability"
the reason I say this, is because technically I can recieve a disabled blue badge, due to the condition I have, which from the outside is not visible in any way and you would have no idea of it ,unless I told you
similarly my father is suffering from ,and being treated for lung cancer, again on the outside he looks ok, not great but ok
so who out of the 2 of us is more disabled?
and to stir the hornets nest, as is my calling :D , is a cruise ship the right place for severly disabled people, in the first place? given the confines of the ship, the restricted acess and alos the need to evacuate disabled people in the event of a serious emergency?
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by david63 »

Dark Knight wrote:
... is a cruise ship the right place for severly disabled people, in the first place? given the confines of the ship, the restricted acess and alos the need to evacuate disabled people in the event of a serious emergency?
Notwithstanding that, and that they do not compromise the safety of themselves, other passengers or crew, then it is quite possibly the only type of holiday where they feel comfortable and safe.

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#14

Post by Dark Knight »

I am not judging, just asking
disability comes in many forms, but is a ship in the middle of the ocean miles from a hospital or specialist help a safe place for disabled people
this is an emotive subject for some, but you have to ask the hard questions and accept some hard answers, being all PC about it, is probably why it is an issue in the first place
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by david63 »

Where disability is concerned they is not, and cannot be, a "one size fits all" answer.

You can have two people with the same disability who are affected by it in different ways and to differing extents, and not only that but each one can have a different approach and mental attitude towards their disability.

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by Dark Knight »

true David
but it does not address the question
is a cruise ship a safe and correct environment for people with severe disabilities

we all know the moans about people with scooters and wheel chairs, we have seen then many times, but how would a person who needs a bed hoist and help in and out of a bed or cabin, fare in an emergency and how would having to help them ,impinge on the safety of the other people and who gets priority
ask the hard questions first
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by david63 »

My understanding, and I have no first hand experience of this, is that P&O (and presumably all other cruise lines) do a "risk assessment" on disabled passengers before they allow them to sail. If this is true then the "hard" questions have already been asked an answered.

The crucial questions that then have to be asked are:

- do all passengers disclose all of their disabilities and the full extent of those disabilities - and do they notify the cruise line if there is any change?

- is the "risk assessment" fit for purpose?

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#18

Post by Meg 50 »

to stir the hornet's nest a wee it more - we asked a senior officer how 'less than mobile' people would be evacuated in an emergency and he said that to be brutally honest, they might well have to be sacrificed in order to get the maximum number off safely
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#19

Post by Andrea S »

DK, This is an emotive subject but one I have been through time and time again. I wrote earlier how I perceive the difference between disabled and disability. In the case of you and your father I would see you having a disability which would not stop you enjoying your holiday but could mean having to choose a particular type of cabin for easier movement. As you say not all disabilities are visible but I am quite sure that you only chose a holiday that is suitable for you.

David 63
If cruise lines do a risk assessment prior to booking they can only go on what they are told. Even medical reports may not show how mobile someone is.

My own view is that all passengers should have some degree of mobility. I do not consider a cruise company should be responsible for providing facilities for people who cannot do anything at all for themselves. This can put staff at risk of injuring themselves and in an emergency this could prove fatal.

Even in the early stages of the illness my son and daughter I never contemplated taking either of them on a cruise. I would not

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by towny44 »

As the husband of someone who is quite disabled and mainly uses her wheelchair whilst on board ship, I am quite surprised and a little disappointed at the comments about safety issues possibly being caused by disabled passengers in an emergency. It seems that the old "women and children first" maxim, where the strongest ensured that the weakest were safe before securing their own survival, is long gone; replaced now by a survival of the fittest philosophy.
One of the reasons we no longer fly is our concern that in a survivable accident, where it is essential to exit the airplane rapidly, my wife would have to be last to avoid delaying others. However accidents at sea are rare, and generally allow more time to safely evacuate the ship, which has provided us with a few degrees more comfort than flying would. But I had assumed that the desire to help others less able to help themselves would be more prominent than is perhaps the case.
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by david63 »

towny44 wrote:
But I had assumed that the desire to help others less able to help themselves would be more prominent than is perhaps the case.
I think that we would all like, or even expect, that to be the case but having seen the "pushing and shoving, me first" brigade in non life threatening situations such as queuing to get in the MDR, queuing for tenders or even going into/out of the safety briefing I cannot in all honesty hold out a lot of hope.

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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by Manoverboard »

Agreed D63.

In reality I doubt that very many would step back for a wheelchair even at the point of disembarkation let alone during an emergency situation.

We have repeatedly found that P&O Cruisers are far more inclined to have a ' me first ' mentality than is the case on our Riverboat and / or Coaching holidays. We have also noticed that many of the wheelchair passengers are more demanding than the rest of us and ' expect ' to receive better service or priority treatment ... especially in and out of the lifts.
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by ITWA Travel Writer »

Moby and David you have both probably, whether by accident or by design, highlighted one of the most important factors effecting how the disabled are treated within the cruise industry, which are the operational base of the cruise line and subsequently the nationality of the passenger majority.

As you travel the world, national identity made up from tradition, customs and family responsibility, changes and indeed through time the priorities encountered within nationalities also change.

I can still remember, when my first wife was in a wheelchair being addressed first, as in the does she take sugar scenario. The fact that she had a double first in English literature, from Aberdeen University and had a doctorate from Kiel University in, German literature and had lectured on-board cruise ships was unseen, so the majority assumed that she was something different.

However, on-board the MSC cruise line, multi European and disliked by many for being so, we found the opposite to be true. The vast majority of European nationalities were respectful, helpful and always directly addressed Eleanor first.

We Brits have, I am afraid followed our American cousins as we now appear to do in all cases. So “towny44” I am afraid that “women and children first” is now a thing of the past.
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

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Post by Dark Knight »

The women and children thing is a myth anyway and has never been part of any evacuation procedure, it was popularised by the media after the Titanic sinking but has no basis in fact
so perhaps the question should be, are disabled people in a wheelchair etc, a hazard on board ships and planes and therefore SHOULD they be allowed to travel at all ??
now before you start getting all excited, read what I said , not what you think I said !!!!
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Re: Please Define Disabled?

#25

Post by oldbluefox »

Manoverboard wrote:
We have also noticed that many of the wheelchair passengers are more demanding than the rest of us and ' expect ' to receive better service or priority treatment ... especially in and out of the lifts.
I think this is a valid point. As I am on holiday I am in no rush to go anywhere and am quite happy to stand back to allow a wheelchair through or to allow them to go ahead of me. Having pushed my mother around I understand how difficult it can be especially in crowded situations with narrow walkways etc.
Sometimes you get an acknowledgement or some form of cursory recognition but all too frequently there is neither from the wheelchair occupant or the 'pusher' which leaves you wondering 'Was it worth it?' Of course it is when you are able-bodied and can move around freely but some have an expectation you will get out of their way.

However it's important not to tar everybody with the same brush and I soon suss out those without manners, much as I do with anybody else.

Pet gripe? Those in mobility scooters who insist on parking their scooter across the area by the lifts whilst they are waiting for a lift coming, when everybody is coming out of the theatre thereby blocking off access to stairs or to the other side of the ship where the corridor to other areas is. Just thoughtless.

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