Brexit

Chat about anything here
User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 May 2019, 14:08

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 11:02
barney wrote:
He's being slaughtered in the MSM for his refusal to answer about trivial things he had said in the past.
Once again our views diverge Barney.. IMHO The funding of the NHS is not a trivial thing, brought home to me recently after an emergency stay of 9 days in hospital.
I obviously misunderstood what Farage said Ray.
I thought that I heard him say that he would advocate an insurance system that ran alongside the NHS, to take pressure from it by those who wished to pay.
I already have this insurance and have used it quite successfully, by both myself and Mrs b.
Rather than spend thousands on another holiday, I spent it having my knee replaced , thus not adding to the NHS woes.

If he advocated privatising the NHS, then I am 100% opposed.

My politics is about as far removed from Farage's as is possible, as is Claire Fox's but on this single issue of Brexit, he is correct.


Ray Scully
First Officer
First Officer
Posts: 1744
Joined: January 2013
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 May 2019, 15:06

Barney, what's your problem regarding a confirmatory vote aka second referendum. If your case is as good as you say and so beneficial to Joe Public you will win hands down and put the EU situation to bed for generations at least.

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 13 May 2019, 15:12

barney wrote:
13 May 2019, 14:08
I obviously misunderstood what Farage said Ray.
I thought that I heard him say that he would advocate an insurance system that ran alongside the NHS, to take pressure from it by those who wished to pay.
I already have this insurance and have used it quite successfully, by both myself and Mrs b …....
We are also in a Private Health Care Scheme, the most recent usage was when Mobietta had her cataracts sorted out within a matter of weeks whereas the feller down the road died while sitting out his 15 month waiting list on the NHS.

Efficiency and accountability from the Provider with the focus being on the patient but without Political or Trade Union influences is what is required but many would obviously require a ' free ' at the point of entry insurance policy.

I wonder if Donald Trump has similar thoughts to Mr Farage and if American Companies would be the main beneficiaries of such a scheme ?

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 13 May 2019, 15:14

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:06
Barney, what's your problem regarding a confirmatory vote aka second referendum. If your case is as good as you say and so beneficial to Joe Public you will win hands down and put the EU situation to bed for generations at least.
We had a vote and do not need another one as the outcome was conclusive.

Perhaps we should also replay the entire Premier League season because Huddersfield are unhappy about being relegated.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 May 2019, 15:32

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:06
Barney, what's your problem regarding a confirmatory vote aka second referendum. If your case is as good as you say and so beneficial to Joe Public you will win hands down and put the EU situation to bed for generations at least.
But would it Ray. Every single sane adult can understand the basis of the democratic system. The system simply is, you have a vote and one side wins.
That is the same all around the world with the exception of dictatorships and banana republics.

Why would you need a confirmation vote?
The result was the result.
All that has changed is some people refusing to accept it.
I feel that this refusal by some to accept a legitimate vote is bordering on some kind of mental illness.
It's almost like a child with his fingers in his ears.

Just say there is another referendum and remain win 51/49?
Does that make it legitimate?.

Why would one result not be but the other is?

That way leads to anarchy.

The anti democrats have given rise to the brexit party.
Surely you can understand that.


Ray Scully
First Officer
First Officer
Posts: 1744
Joined: January 2013
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 May 2019, 16:13

I GIVE IN !!!!!

User avatar

towny44
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 4640
Joined: January 2013
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 13 May 2019, 19:11

Manoverboard wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:14
Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 15:06
Barney, what's your problem regarding a confirmatory vote aka second referendum. If your case is as good as you say and so beneficial to Joe Public you will win hands down and put the EU situation to bed for generations at least.
We had a vote and do not need another one as the outcome was conclusive.

Perhaps we should also replay the entire Premier League season because Huddersfield are unhappy about being relegated.
Flippin great idea, but can we have free access to some of City and Liverpool's substitutes?
John

Trainee Pensioner since 2000

User avatar

towny44
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 4640
Joined: January 2013
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 13 May 2019, 19:13

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:13
I GIVE IN !!!!!
Too late for that now Ray, June 2016 was when you should have given in.
John

Trainee Pensioner since 2000

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 May 2019, 19:18

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:13
I GIVE IN !!!!!
Great.!
Only another half million to go :thumbup:

Hopefully Chukka, Vince & Co will think the same after May 23rd.

Support Lexit :thumbup:


Ray Scully
First Officer
First Officer
Posts: 1744
Joined: January 2013
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 13 May 2019, 20:35

towny44 wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:13
Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:13
I GIVE IN !!!!!
Too late for that now Ray, June 2016 was when you should have given in.
NO not given in trying to get a reasoned resolution to Brexit, just to wearing out my keyboard in a vain attempt to get the ideologues to confront the reality. I would have more chance persuading Man United fans to now support Liverpool. Never mind eh!

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 13 May 2019, 21:57

I will never be convinced that it is ok to overturn a democratic vote before implementing it. If that is considered normal, then what is the point ?

User avatar

towny44
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 4640
Joined: January 2013
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 13 May 2019, 22:45

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 20:35
towny44 wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:13
Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:13
I GIVE IN !!!!!
Too late for that now Ray, June 2016 was when you should have given in.
NO not given in trying to get a reasoned resolution to Brexit, just to wearing out my keyboard in a vain attempt to get the ideologues to confront the reality. I would have more chance persuading Man United fans to now support Liverpool. Never mind eh!
Ray, just because I always assume anyone who votes labour needs committing, especially when it leads to a Labour Govt., does not give me the right to protest that there should be another vote just to check if people have come to their senses.
Now I agree that there is always another GE vote in 5 years to enable sense to prevail, but if the strength of view is so strong then what you should have done, after we had successfully shown a united front and negotiated the best leaving deal possible, was start a new EU party, or maybe just voted for the LIB dems and changed Govt policy in a fair way via the legal ballot box rather than calling for an illegal re-count.
John

Trainee Pensioner since 2000

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 May 2019, 11:20

This subject really comes down to the basics of our voting system.

I cannot remember in my lifetime, that a losing side immediately refuted a result in a democratic vote.

Cast your mind back.
Literally the day after the result, politicians and pundits were on our screens declaring that they could not accept it and would campaign to overturn it.
They were clearly in shock at the time and maybe it could be expected.
However, to continue on the grounds of democracy is ludicrous.

Sure, things have changed.
The biggest one being the PM going against her own speeches at Lancaster House and Florence.
I, like millions of others thought that was that.
We would either leave the EU with and agreement or we would leave with no agreement.

Why ?
Because that is what she specifically said.


I have no issue with another vote, be it a general election or in time, another referendum.
But they would have to be on the issue of rejoining the EU, after we have left.


screwy
Senior Second Officer
Senior Second Officer
Posts: 870
Joined: March 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by screwy » 14 May 2019, 16:42

Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 20:35
towny44 wrote:
13 May 2019, 19:13
Ray Scully wrote:
13 May 2019, 16:13
I GIVE IN !!!!!
Too late for that now Ray, June 2016 was when you should have given in.
NO not given in trying to get a reasoned resolution to Brexit, just to wearing out my keyboard in a vain attempt to get the ideologues to confront the reality. I would have more chance persuading Man United fans to now support Liverpool. Never mind eh!
You have zero chance of that Ray. The millions of Utd fans world wide were all shouting for City and will be shouting for Spurs.
Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt


Ray Scully
First Officer
First Officer
Posts: 1744
Joined: January 2013
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 May 2019, 18:11

The Pied Piper or our own Donald ? :lolno: :lolno: TAKE YOUR pic
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Ray Scully
First Officer
First Officer
Posts: 1744
Joined: January 2013
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by Ray Scully » 14 May 2019, 18:14

60149073_683968265393531_6170158525763813376_n.jpg
Ray Scully wrote:
14 May 2019, 18:11
The Pied Piper or our own Donald ? :lolno: :lolno: TAKE YOUR pic
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 14 May 2019, 18:22

All I can say is that he has clearly got a lot of people worried if they are trying to do such a concentrated hatchet job.
That level of salary and attendance is about par for the course for most EU MPs.
That is part of the reason why so many are outraged at the obvious waste.

Just wait until there are another 200 MEPs like Farage from all over Europe.
The game is up and the EU answer is..... More EU.

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 05:53

barney wrote:
14 May 2019, 11:20
Cast your mind back.
Literally the day after the result, politicians and pundits were on our screens declaring that they could not accept it and would campaign to overturn
Cast your mind back slightly further, to, literally, a few days before the result, when Farage was on our screens saying "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way." which is a blatant declaration that he would not accept it and would campaign to overturn.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 May 2019, 07:49

Kendhni wrote:
15 May 2019, 05:53
barney wrote:
14 May 2019, 11:20
Cast your mind back.
Literally the day after the result, politicians and pundits were on our screens declaring that they could not accept it and would campaign to overturn
Cast your mind back slightly further, to, literally, a few days before the result, when Farage was on our screens saying "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way." which is a blatant declaration that he would not accept it and would campaign to overturn.
But without the system behind him, he would have been told, good shot, you lost, get over it.
I found the statement and he actually said that if very close, he would continue his campaign.
No mention of overturning it.

User avatar

oldbluefox
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7046
Joined: January 2013
Location: Cumbria

Re: Brexit

Post by oldbluefox » 15 May 2019, 08:16

A slight but significant difference considering he would have no power to overturn it.
Last edited by oldbluefox on 15 May 2019, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 May 2019, 09:06

oldbluefox wrote:
15 May 2019, 08:16
A slight but significant difference considering he would have no power to overturn it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of Farage.
But nobody can deny that he is effective.

The comparison to Trump, made by Ray is probably not a million miles away from the mark.

We all know where that led and why.

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 09:18

barney wrote:
15 May 2019, 07:49
Kendhni wrote:
15 May 2019, 05:53
barney wrote:
14 May 2019, 11:20
Cast your mind back.
Literally the day after the result, politicians and pundits were on our screens declaring that they could not accept it and would campaign to overturn
Cast your mind back slightly further, to, literally, a few days before the result, when Farage was on our screens saying "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way." which is a blatant declaration that he would not accept it and would campaign to overturn.
But without the system behind him, he would have been told, good shot, you lost, get over it.
I found the statement and he actually said that if very close, he would continue his campaign.
No mention of overturning it.
I think you are clutching at straws trying to separate the two positions.

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 09:21

barney wrote:
15 May 2019, 09:06
oldbluefox wrote:
15 May 2019, 08:16
A slight but significant difference considering he would have no power to overturn it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of Farage.
But nobody can deny that he is effective.

The comparison to Trump, made by Ray is probably not a million miles away from the mark.

We all know where that led and why.
He is a disrupter and sadly that is the only string to his bow - he has no more of an idea or plan to deliver brexit than any other politician or brexit leader. His chosen form of brexit has chopped and changed over the past 3 years - at the time of the referendum he was extolling the virtues of the Norwegian model, no he is jumping on the minority choice of 'no deal' - that was never ever part of the peoples referendum.

Farage is doing nothing more than whipping the people up to line his pockets.

User avatar

towny44
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 4640
Joined: January 2013
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 15 May 2019, 09:45

Farage or no Farage the result was to leave the EU and Cameron promised he would honour the vote, of course he never expected a leave vote but as many have said before, be careful what you wish for, or in this case offer.
As regards no plan or idea about the sort of Brexit we should negotiate, that's not surprising since no one had ever left before, but I agree that I did not want or expect a no deal, although I always assumed the EU would play hard ball with a trade deal, however I never envisaged the acrimony that a withdrawal agreement would cause. I think Barney said way back that accepting that the WA discussions should be finalised before the trade talks was our first big mistake of very many our govt. have made in these discussions.
In summary we are at an impasse and I think our only way out is to revoke article 50 but also to have another referendum, we all know a lot more about the perils of leaving, however I hope our politicians have learned enough to be able to be able proceed to carve up the EU in much the same way they have stitched us up, once we invoke article 50 and start again on a clean sheet.......I am so confident that the result would still be to leave, and probably by a much higher margin.
John

Trainee Pensioner since 2000

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 10:33

towny44 wrote:
15 May 2019, 09:45
Farage or no Farage the result was to leave the EU and Cameron promised he would honour the vote, of course he never expected a leave vote but as many have said before, be careful what you wish for, or in this case offer.
As regards no plan or idea about the sort of Brexit we should negotiate, that's not surprising since no one had ever left before, but I agree that I did not want or expect a no deal, although I always assumed the EU would play hard ball with a trade deal, however I never envisaged the acrimony that a withdrawal agreement would cause. I think Barney said way back that accepting that the WA discussions should be finalised before the trade talks was our first big mistake of very many our govt. have made in these discussions.
In summary we are at an impasse and I think our only way out is to revoke article 50 but also to have another referendum, we all know a lot more about the perils of leaving, however I hope our politicians have learned enough to be able to be able proceed to carve up the EU in much the same way they have stitched us up, once we invoke article 50 and start again on a clean sheet.......I am so confident that the result would still be to leave, and probably by a much higher margin.
I would not be a million miles from your position. Nobody expected brexit to win and therefore nobody had a brexit plan - of any sort. After the referendum David Cameron should have thanked the population for their advisory vote and put together a cross-party committee to properly explore and determine a plan and a strategy for leaving that would be acceptable to all parties, but primarily acceptable to the UK. This could have included investigatory relationships with other countries on future relationships with the creation of 'agreements in principle'. They could also have looked at expected impact to the economy, jobs, infrastructure requirements and everything else that comes with brexit. It should have explored and costed ALL brexit options that have been bandied about over the last 3 years.

Once a proper plan and strategy were devised then and only then should article 50 have been triggered. I have always said I could have been convinced either way but, at the time of the referendum I could see through the lies about immigration, the lies about sovereignty, the lies about Laws, the lies about the Lisbon treaty, the lies about the NHS ... the problem was that there was not a single truth in the brexit campaign that I could focus on. Similarly there was little in the remain camp that I could focus on - but there were some things I felt were truths (better working together, weakening of the UK union etc.). When negotiations fail I always believe the best path is to return to the status quo until something verifiably better can be determined. At the minute, 3 years down the line, with over a dozen brexit plans on the table and not one of them verifiably places the UK or its people in a better position.

If article 50 is to be revoked (and I am not even sure it can be - or how much that could cost) then it should be on a promise that the suggested cross-party committee and working group is created to look at how a clean break can be made form the EU (and that should include EU representatives). There should also be guaranteed promise, from all political parties, that within 5 years the question is put back to the people, but this time it is a head-to-head of a single brexit plan/strategy versus the EU plan/strategy (preferably with a threat to execute any politician or journalist found out to be telling lies).

The one thing I disagree with you though is that there has been no stitch up ... just a total incompetent mess by
- the electorate (some of which were more interested in giving the establishment a two-fingered gesture rather than voting for the issue and secondly because they were given a chance to get behind the government that was meant to deliver brexit, but failed to do so)
- the brexiteers (who had no plan or strategy and arrogantly thought the world owed them a favour)
- the remainers (who arrogantly thought they would win so didn't need to try too hard)
- those too lazy to even be bothered to vote for the most important political event that is likely to happen in their lifetimes.
I don't think the EU has stitched us up, they told us before the referendum what their negotiating stance was and despite that being labelled as project fear they have stuck rigidly to it ... we have stitched ourselves up good and proper - especially those demanding that brexit is delivered without a plan (and just saying 'leave' is not a plan).

Sadly there is a total dichotomy between Leave and remain and the job of the government is to represent the entire population not just a minority, or even a majority.
Last edited by Kendhni on 15 May 2019, 10:37, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 15 May 2019, 10:37

Kendhni wrote:
15 May 2019, 09:21

Farage is doing nothing more than whipping the people up to line his pockets.
Whereas all the other Politicians are working flat out in the interests of the people … right, got it now.

Mr Farage is however a centre point for all those people, including me, who are angry about the shabby and arrogant way that the two major parties have ignored the will of the people and their own manifestos.

If he makes a few bob on the side … c'est la vie :wave:

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 10:49

Manoverboard wrote:
15 May 2019, 10:37
Kendhni wrote:
15 May 2019, 09:21

Farage is doing nothing more than whipping the people up to line his pockets.
Whereas all the other Politicians are working flat out in the interests of the people … right, got it now.

Mr Farage is however a centre point for all those people, including me, who are angry about the shabby and arrogant way that the two major parties have ignored the will of the people and their own manifestos.

If he makes a few bob on the side … c'est la vie :wave:
What is this mythical 'will of the people'? I assume you are talking of the will of the 27% of "the people" that voted for something referred to as 'brexit'. But then what is this brexit? Is it the soft brexit, the hard brexit, the Norwegian model, the Swiss model, the Canada model, the Canada+++ model, the Ukranian model, the Hong Kong model, the Australian model, the Norway+ model, the WTO model, or is it 'crash out with no deal, no plan, no strategy' model. Which of those models are beneficial to the UK and which are detrimental? That is the crux of the problem, there is no single "will of the people", and definitely no "will of the people" that has been able to muster any kind of majority - even within the brexit camp itself.

One interesting side-effect of Farage's party is that they are a one trick pony party built on a single issue and will be standing in an election based on that one issue and that one issue alone. If Farage gets less than 50% of the vote then it is fair for that to be looked on that 'the will of the people' is not behind brexit. Farage has a lot to gain (personally) and also a lot to lose (giving him the benefit of the doubt that he had some credibility and integrity in the first place) - his actions could ironically give rise to a second referendum ... and i have no idea how that would go.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 May 2019, 11:34

Excellent post Ken, and pretty much all of it is factually accurate.

I'd take issue with your 27% but then that's for another day.

With all of your reasoned debate, you have overlooked one very important point.

That point is the old embarrassment of Democracy.

Never in our history has the result of an open vote been overturned before implementation, even if it's a stupid one.

I have had to endure nearly nine years of a Tory government.
I have never voted conservative in my life, but democracy dictates that they have won, albeit in coalition.

So, I accept defeat and hope that my side does better next time.

I didn't take to the streets in attempt to overturn the result.
Why?
Because it was a legitimate result.
As was the EU Referendum. !

Do a little bit of research and find out about the rise of what some call the far right, all across the continent.
This has come about because their respective politicians have not listened to their people, in their quest for globalisation and integration.

I couldn't happen in good old blighty, I thought.
We have little tolerance for that sort of thing.
But, slowly but surely, it's creeping in.

I'm not implying for one moment that either Farage or the Brexit Party are far right.
They seem a very mixed bunch and very much a one trick pony at the moment.

But, my point is, when the governing class, no matter their political persuation, ignore a legitimate vote, then they will feel the consequences.

I said on this forum many , many months ago, that huge change is coming, politically.
I haven't changed my mind.
The writing is on the wall and the establishment had better get some reading glasses.

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 15 May 2019, 11:57

Kendhni wrote:
15 May 2019, 10:49
What is this mythical 'will of the people'? I assume you are talking of the will of the 27% of "the people" that voted for something referred to as 'brexit' …
27% as a percentage of a potential number of voters is irrelevant in the same way that voting in an election or to go / not to go on strike is. No public vote has ever been based on a 100% turnout but they did have the opportunity so to do.

The outcome of the Brexit vote was to leave the EU, again it is irrelevant for you to attempt to confuse the issue by bringing up the various shades of Brexit. Parliament's job to was to act on the will of the people, and they were instructed to leave the EU. This is confirmed by the vote in the House which was carried as well as being in the Labour and Conservative manifestos

My personal view of TM's deal was that she did at least attempt to represent Leavers, Remainers and the EU itself. The reason that did not happen was because too many MPs were determined to block the exit any way they could and although I find that reprehensible you seem to approve of their actions.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 May 2019, 12:24

Ironically the EU /TM deal would sail through parliament is the EU budged on the Irish back stop.
After watching the programme about brexit from the EU side on TV, it clearly shows that they were amazed at the incompetence of our side. Verhofstadt's team could not believe how easy Robbins and Co caved in, even offering things that they hadn't asked for.

The only amendment that has passed a vote in Parliament is The EU deal with a reworded backstop. I can't believe May's team are not pushing for some minor change that will facilitate movement.

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 13:59

You are way off the mark here ??????
Manoverboard wrote:
15 May 2019, 11:57
27% as a percentage of a potential number of voters is irrelevant in the same way that voting in an election or to go / not to go on strike is. No public vote has ever been based on a 100% turnout but they did have the opportunity so to do.
You brought the "will of the people" into it .... "the people" is 100% of the population therefore it is fair to point out that this 'will' has only been expressed by 27% of the people. If you meant the 'majority of those that voted in the referendum' then that is what you should say, but that still does not give an answer to what their will was - which is why we are in the mess we are currently in.
Manoverboard wrote:
15 May 2019, 11:57
The outcome of the Brexit vote was to leave the EU, again it is irrelevant for you to attempt to confuse the issue by bringing up the various shades of Brexit. Parliament's job to was to act on the will of the people, and they were instructed to leave the EU. This is confirmed by the vote in the House which was carried as well as being in the Labour and Conservative manifestos
It IS highly relevant how we leave the EU and is possibly the biggest issue that many in the remain camp have - to totally dismiss the mechanism that we were told 'would be the easiest of negotiations' for which 'we hold all the cards' is (at best) disingenuous if not dishonest. Parliaments job is to represent the entire population, albeit biased towards the majority (and rightly so). That is what they have been trying to do, but the problem is that sound bites like 'leave-means-leave', 'just leave' and 'no deal' are just that ... soundbites to appeal to the masses who want easy answers to complex problems.

At some point someone has to take responsibility and formulate a plan to reach the goal - the problem is there are so many plans and not one of them has the majority.
Manoverboard wrote:
15 May 2019, 11:57
My personal view of TM's deal was that she did at least attempt to represent Leavers, Remainers and the EU itself. The reason that did not happen was because too many MPs were determined to block the exit any way they could and although I find that reprehensible you seem to approve of their actions.
I personally do not think it is a good deal, but as an interim deal that could be built on, I thought it could work - and probably is closer to the final solution than the majority of the alternative 'brexits' since it provided business, political and personal continuity.

I have made no comment about whether I approve or disapprove of the MPs actions, so how the heck you have come to that conclusion is beyond me. I have been very scathing of Boris (a blithering fool), Davies (known by his peers as being arrogant and incompetent), Rees Mogg (who says one thing and then does the other) - I find it reprehensible that people still believe these specimens after the lies they have told. I have also been scathing of the way the remain campaign was run including David Camerons role. But the group I am most scathing of are those in the electorate that still delude themselves that they understood what they were voting for - and secondly, those that refused to back the very government that was meant to deliver what they supposedly wanted (that really was akin to turkeys voting for chrIstmas)

User avatar

Kendhni
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 3621
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Kendhni » 15 May 2019, 14:04

barney wrote:
15 May 2019, 12:24
Ironically the EU /TM deal would sail through parliament is the EU budged on the Irish back stop.
After watching the programme about brexit from the EU side on TV, it clearly shows that they were amazed at the incompetence of our side. Verhofstadt's team could not believe how easy Robbins and Co caved in, even offering things that they hadn't asked for.

The only amendment that has passed a vote in Parliament is The EU deal with a reworded backstop. I can't believe May's team are not pushing for some minor change that will facilitate movement.
I am inclined to agree with you, however the border issue was known about before the referendum and dismissed by the brexit leadership as being 'Project Fear' (in the lead up to the referendum it was getting quite a few column inches). While I don't think it is up to the EU to give in totally I think they could provide a more flexible or time-limited solution.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 15 May 2019, 15:16

A time limited solution would keep most happy Ken. For instance a five year maximum time limit. If the EU and UK cannot agree a trade agreement within that time, then they never will.
The original proposal from Barnier was to only tie the north of Ireland into a backstop.
It was May's team that insisted it was the whole UK.
Couldn't make it up, could you.

The tie in without either the option to unilaterally end it or a time limited could never pass the house. Why the EU thought she could get it through amazes me.

Given that the makeup of the EU parliament is going to radically change after July, maybe this clause can be revised.

There is an argument for unilaterally revoking A50, changing the Leader or even the government and starting the process again.
This time with a plan and without the useless team that have so far not delivered. I include Barnier in that.

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 15 May 2019, 15:27

Ken …. having already been through the same loops a million times with ' Jack ' I'll leave you to exchange thoughts with Barney, he has more stomach for it than most of us.

:wave:

User avatar

towny44
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 4640
Joined: January 2013
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 15 May 2019, 15:43

Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?
John

Trainee Pensioner since 2000

User avatar

david63
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5886
Joined: January 2012
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 15 May 2019, 15:45

towny44 wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:43
Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?
Perhaps he is on a cruise!

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 15 May 2019, 16:30

david63 wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:45
towny44 wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:43
Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?
Perhaps he is on a cruise!
Naah … that's Gill :roll:

User avatar

david63
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5886
Joined: January 2012
Location: Lancashire

Re: Brexit

Post by david63 » 15 May 2019, 18:44

Manoverboard wrote:
15 May 2019, 16:30
david63 wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:45
towny44 wrote:
15 May 2019, 15:43
Talking of Jack whatever happened to him, has he emigrated to Ireland or have the mods banned him for being a pain in the butt?
Perhaps he is on a cruise!
Naah … that's Gill :roll:
Perhaps they are away together ;) ;)


screwy
Senior Second Officer
Senior Second Officer
Posts: 870
Joined: March 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by screwy » 15 May 2019, 19:52

Perhaps they are one and the same.?
Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt

User avatar

Gill W
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2794
Joined: January 2013
Location: Kent

Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 15 May 2019, 22:10

I have returned from a cruise today.
I went on the cruise with my husband, who is not Jack.
I am a real person and not somebody else’s alter ego.
Nor do I post under an alias.
I decided several weeks ago, for numerous reasons, not to take part anymore in this thread.

I trust this clarifies the situation.
Last edited by Gill W on 15 May 2019, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.
Gill

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 16 May 2019, 17:10

Welcome back Gill
As you could guess, nothing has changed in your absence


Ray B
Senior Second Officer
Senior Second Officer
Posts: 503
Joined: January 2013

Re: Brexit

Post by Ray B » 17 May 2019, 18:27

That's true, cross party talks came to nothing, what a waste of time. And so on it goes, is there ANYONE out there who can get this sorted.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 May 2019, 08:25

Me Ray

VOTE BARNEY.

User avatar

towny44
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 4640
Joined: January 2013
Location: Huddersfield

Re: Brexit

Post by towny44 » 18 May 2019, 09:04

barney wrote:
18 May 2019, 08:25
Me Ray

VOTE BARNEY.
Despite never having voted Tory your views are far too right wing, even by ERG standards. 8-)
John

Trainee Pensioner since 2000

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 18 May 2019, 15:02

towny44 wrote:
18 May 2019, 09:04
barney wrote:
18 May 2019, 08:25
Me Ray

VOTE BARNEY.
Despite never having voted Tory your views are far too right wing, even by ERG standards. 8-)
arhh ! Do me a favour John :shh:

You'll ruin my reputation as a Liberal lefty :lol:

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 21 May 2019, 10:06

So, it seems that it's now fair game to throw milkshake over a politician who doesn't share your views.

What next ? Acid ?

It does appear that the Liberal Left are not quite as liberal as I'd like to think they are.

What a sad day for UK politics but we can't say that we didn't see it coming, can we ?

The day that the losing side decided to ignore the vote, the gloves came off.


daib GC
Senior Second Officer
Senior Second Officer
Posts: 658
Joined: February 2013
Location: North East

Re: Brexit

Post by daib GC » 21 May 2019, 21:06

barney wrote:
21 May 2019, 10:06
So, it seems that it's now fair game to throw milkshake over a politician who doesn't share your views.

What next ? Acid ?

It does appear that the Liberal Left are not quite as liberal as I'd like to think they are.

What a sad day for UK politics but we can't say that we didn't see it coming, can we ?

The day that the losing side decided to ignore the vote, the gloves came off.
Sorry was the Labour MP not killed by the right wing loony at the time of the Brexit vote. There is nothing new about what happened the other day.

User avatar

barney
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2970
Joined: March 2013
Location: Instow Devon

Re: Brexit

Post by barney » 21 May 2019, 22:09

That's exactly my point Dai.
Why can't folk respect that it's OK to have an alternative opinion without resorting to extremes.

The right wing nutter who murdered Jo Cox is where he should be. The anti democratic nutters who refuse to accept the referendum result are causing the rise of the far right.

Of that there is no doubt.

User avatar

Gill W
Senior First Officer
Senior First Officer
Posts: 2794
Joined: January 2013
Location: Kent

Re: Brexit

Post by Gill W » 21 May 2019, 22:20

I totally disagree with this ‘milkshaking’

However, Farage is typical of the extreme language that has been normalised.
.
Lest we forget, he is the one who is going to ‘don khaki, pick up his rifle, and head to the front line’.

That sort of language is not acceptable.

Brexit has emboldened Farage and his adherents.

Of that there is no doubt.
Gill

User avatar

Manoverboard
Deputy Captain
Deputy Captain
Posts: 7494
Joined: January 2013
Location: Dorset

Re: Brexit

Post by Manoverboard » 22 May 2019, 08:47

Mobietta and I will be voting for Nigel Farage's Brexit Party tomorrow … of that there is no doubt either 8-)

Return to “General Chat”