Right Honorable Duncan Smith, MP

[Kendhni]

QB
what are you insuring against with your NI contribution, as to the other contributions been and gone
whatever way you cut it , your pension is a gift not a right

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

And more coming all the time....

That a Western government would confiscate private assets is a scare story too far. That's just never going to happen. I'd be interested to hear which countries have done it already, and what your evidence is for it having already been considered by UK government?

I can't remember exactly which countries (that is why I did not give their names) but they were Eastern European. When the media announced that one of the countries had done this there was a 'reassuring' statement from a government official that said our own government/officials had ruled it out .. the implication being that to rule something out it must have been, raised, discussed and rejected (nothing wrong with that).

BTW America and other western european countries have NOT ruled out some sort of seizure program .. although, very understandably, they would only be used as a last resort. Personally I think our government should consider temporarily taxing returns on ISAs.

Sadly, as history has shown us, such events are always preceded with delusion ... it wasn't that long ago when people deluded themselves that house prices could keep rising; they deluded themselves that they could keep borrowing to pay off their debts; and they deluded themselves banks were OK ... after it became obvious there were problems people continued to delude themselves that things were not as bad as it seemed ... even now people still delude themselves that John Wayne is going to come riding over the hill and fix the worlds economy. I remember posting on various sites (in the early/mid noughties) that we needed to reel in credit and that we were on the brink of a major economic collapse ... delusional people told me that I was scaremongering back then as well.

The problem with the current deficit and the debt is that it has moved a massive underlying problem off the agenda ... pensions, and who is going to pay them ... the next generation will not be able to afford to subsidise our generation and I will not blame them when they say enough is enough. Once we come out of this recession the pensions issue is going to rise to the top and a lot of people are going to find out that their pensions are not what they had hoped they would be.

[HK phooey]

Having a quick google it seems that Argentina, Hungary, Portugal and Ireland have raided pension assets!

[Kendhni]

Thanks HK, I was pretty sure about Argentina and Hungary and knew others had but had not realised that the list included Portugal and Ireland ... eeekkkkk .. a bit close to home for comfort! I could be wrong but I also think France, Italy and Cyprus are giving it serious consideration ... possibly on a percentage basis.

It is scarey and sadly there is little anybody can do about it. Similarly we all hear about the banking guarantee of £85K ... if push comes to shove people will find out that that is not worth the pixels it took type it.

[Andrea S]

For those that qualify the current pension is £107 a week. With bills to pay it is not exactly earth shattering, so anyone without savings would be struggling just to survive. Current pensioners are living longer and I believe that future generations will struggle even more. I would say that the majority of people on here have 20 years or so before they reach the new retirement age. I hate to think of how much utility bills, fuel and food will cost by then. Without personal savings/private pensions how on earth will they manage because I think any government will aim to reduce state benefits as soon as they can.

[Kendhni]

... any government will aim to reduce state benefits as soon as they can.

There is no doubt that that MUST happen ... the age of 'entitlement' created by the last government will be short lived.

[Dark Knight]

Ken
where is the contract between the Government and the populous regarding pensions?
Pensions can be removed with the stroke of a pen, hardly a contract and it is not enshrined in law either
so in this I feel you are badly mistaken about what a pension is, it is by no means a right, just coz people get it now, it is a benefit paid to pensioners from the taxes workers are paying now, not some scheme people pay into to take it back later, that is called a savings account not a pension.
there is no pot of money for anyone who paid NI or taxes as it has been spent long long ago.

it is about time this country realised just how deep it is in the mire and paying longer term pensions is one of the main contributing factors
it is over 10 times what is paid out in any other for of BENEFIT

[Dark Knight]

The State Pension is a "contribution-based" benefit, and depends on an individual's National Insurance (NI) contribution history. For someone with the 30 qualifying years (years in which NI contributions were paid),[1] it is payable at a flat rate of £110.15 a week (2013–14). A smaller, pro-rata, pension is paid to someone with fewer qualifying years. An "age addition" of 25p a week is paid to people over 80.

Good old wiki

a right......my a*se it is.....it is a benefit.....

[Kendhni]

DN, I think you are that determined to nitpick about use of right/benefit that you fail to see that in the main I am agreeing with you.

At the minute it is a pension and that is enshrined within the 'way the tax/benefit/whatever system works in the UK ... at the minute. We have been promised that in the near future it will be worth £144pppw (although I am still unclear as to whether or not that is in todays money or what it will be when it comes into It is paid out of the social protection budget and people have a right to that benefit (so maybe we are just looking at it from different angles). Naturally that benefit could be worth more or less when it comes out turn to receive it.

What I agree with you about is firstly that any government can remove that right/benefit as and when they desire ... similarly the £85K guarantee from banks can be removed at the swipe of a pen ... as can anything or any law in this land. Secondly nobody has explained how the country is going to pay for this especially since there is the massive burden of a large number of unfunded (or funded in name only) public sector pensions that also have to be paid forand, as I pointed out, there are precedents on this happening.

It does not matter what sort of pension you have, state, private, money purchase, investment, SIPP, final salary etc. ... nor does it matter if you have already taken out an accrual ... if the government wants it can, and may, seize all those funds. On that we agree.

[Dark Knight]

Ken
My point has always been throughout this thread, people seem to think that pensions are a right etched in stone and that can never be taken away from them and will be there for all time
WRONG it is a state benefit that can be taken away at any time, so lets start from a position of truth first before talking about misinformation. it is not nit picking, when trying to make people understand what a pension really is
Pensions are another fiscal time bomb, that will blow up in our faces, like banks, mortgages, house prices etc and the sooner people realise that they cannot rely on the state to keep them , the sooner we will be out of debt and back to a solid financial base
Pensions cost more than 10 times the unemployment benefits and this bill is only getting bigger and as the work force dwindles, who pays for this
The sooner pensions are paid in relation to income, rather than a blanket payment the better

[Kendhni]

It is nit picking and quite honestly I have better things to do.
So you look at it from your point of view and I will look at it from my point of view ... but overall the point you still fail to grasp is that in the main I have agreed with you ... jeez some people just do not realise when they are being agreed with (apart from their nit picking).

[Dark Knight]

Ken
f you have better things to do ,then go and do them and stop trying to lecture everyone, you are not the only person who has an opinion on political and socials issues and " News Flash" you are far from being right most of the time
and when it comes to picking nits dear boy, you could give lessons

[Quizzical Bob]

I'm having the weekend off

[Serendipity]

This is my take on it rightly or wrongly.
I worked for 40 years, my husband has worked for 40 years and is still working and paying tax and NI on his income, we were always of the opinion the we would get a state pension when I reached 60 and him 65. This has now changed and we have to live with this, law of the land etc. I have a pension from the NHS paid into it all my working life as a nurse.
I think the winter fuel payment and bus passes should be revised and paid only to OAP's who are needy, anyone choosing to live abroad should lose the fuel payment.
What I do object to is the benefits paid to girls and women who choose to have numerous childrens with whoever happens to have been around at the time, no thought goes into how these children will be maintained, no worry the state will pay and the state will pay for the next generation of children these feckless people produce. These people have not put a penny into earning these benefits so why should a pensioner who has paid their dues feel guilty of receiving something they have paid a great deal into.
Why should a foreigner come to these shores and demand to be kept by the state? They flock to the UK because of our generous NHS and benefits system, you cannot blame them if the facility is there but please do not begrudge the people who had financed all of this. In the hospital I worked in the birth rate of immigrants was double the birth rate of locals, not to mention the interpreters they are entitled to. Something needs to be done in this country to reward the people that 'do' and the people that dont think they have to 'do'.

[oldbluefox]

Well, I for one agree with you Serendipity and feel no guilt whatsoever in picking up my pension.

[Kendhni]

Ken
f you have better things to do ,then go and do them and stop trying to lecture everyone, you are not the only person who has an opinion on political and socials issues and " News Flash" you are far from being right most of the time
and when it comes to picking nits dear boy, you could give lessons

Finished the more important stuff ... jeez you still haven't worked out that, nit picking aside, I have agreed with you .. so If I am wrong that would make you wrong as well .. which given your past record is the most likely answer

[emjay45]

I also agree with Serendipity. Why should people who've paid into a system feel guilty, when there are many who have relied on the state for what they consider to be their entitlement. There are now generations of families who have never worked but believe it's up to 'The Government ' to keep them. I do believe however that when my both of my sons reach retirement age there will probably no longer be a state pension.

[Kendhni]

I do believe however that when both of my sons reach retirement age there will probably no longer be a state pension.

There will probably always be a state pension but (like others) I think it will probably end up being means tested and many will lose the right to receive it ... at that point it then becomes no different to any other 'benefit' (which I believe is where DN's point is going).

I believe that such changes are probably somewhere between 10 and 20 years away ... but who knows.

[Manoverboard]

Can we make it 20 years away please .... thank you

[paultheeagle]

DK

I don't think you are nit picking, I can see exactly where you are coming from

Now we are a clique DK, do you think the State Pension is will be better protected by a Labour Government or a Tory one...I believe the Tories have 'stuffed' millions of pensioners already by changing the rules.

[Serendipity]

DK

I don't think you are nit picking, I can see exactly where you are coming from

Now we are a clique DK, do you think the State Pension is will be better protected by a Labour Government or a Tory one...I believe the Tories have 'stuffed' millions of pensioners already by changing the rules.

I think the previous Labour government stuffed all of us who were paying taxes and NI contributions by giving outrageous benefits to the feckless and immigrants just to gain votes. Why else would asylum seekers cross 2 or 3 borders to come to the UK? The UK is I. A mess politically we need a strong leader but unfortunately we don't have a person like Mrs Thatcher.

[emjay45]

Serendiity
Again I couldn't agree more

[Delboy]

I certainly do not have a guilty conscience when I receive my government pension. I have always been told throughout my working life (retired 5.5 years to date, worked until I was 67.5 years of age, wife until she was 61), that providing I paid my NI contributions, the government would provide me with a pension when I retired.

I am just glad we also saved during our working life's the bulk of which is invested as a Capital sum, in an income bond to provide us with additional annual income. The only problem has been, that due to the recession any income we have had, has been from Capital rather than any growth in the bond. Annual income being restricted to 5% of the original bond value, otherwise it is liable for tax.

It's only now with with a steady increase in the share price, over the last couple of years, have We seen our capital sum increase back to it original value.

I would hate to be in a position, whereby we relied solely on the government pension, We certainly would not be able to afford to cruise if I we did. I feel sorry for those who have to rely solely on the government pension.

I am also glad we are mortgage free.

I welcome any additional perks that the government feels free to give, I would still qualify for a pension even if there were limits on its payment as DN has suggested, even taking into account the small private pensions, that both my wife and myself also have.

[paultheeagle]

serendidipity

What in the bleedin' hell as Mrs sidding Thatcher got to do with this lively debate

and we have got a new strong leader in the making... 'Dave' is running scared of him......his name is Nige....

[Kendhni]

I think the previous Labour government stuffed all of us who were paying taxes and NI contributions by giving outrageous benefits to the feckless and immigrants just to gain votes. Why else would asylum seekers cross 2 or 3 borders to come to the UK? The UK is I. A mess politically we need a strong leader but unfortunately we don't have a person like Mrs Thatcher.

You forgot to mention that they added a new tax for pretty much every month they were in power.

[Kendhni]

and we have got a new strong leader in the making... 'Dave' is running scared of him......his name is Nige....

I don;t think he should be running scared of him, in fact if Farage can get the voters out and convert his council winnings into parliamentary seats (which is unlikely) then it could mean the next government in this country may be a coalition between the Conservatives and UKIP (and possibly a.n.other party) ... that would be very interesting and would really consign labours 'entitlement-hand-out' society to the trash bin where it belongs ... we can then welcome a society based on 'contribution' and 'responsibility' that will bring the best out of everyone and looks after those in genuine need far better.