Brexit

[Gill W]

PS I don't think they will make you use the portaloos Gill.

I should hope not, not after a load of desperate lorry drivers have been in there!

[towny44]

Has this become the comedy thread? I just love Jack's idea that the internet contains all we need to know about the EU negotiations. The only people who know that are the people in the room. The rest is biased speculation in the case of media sites and carefully filtered spin in the case of the EU site. The latter is not the unedited minutes of the meetings. The only time we'll know what the deal, or not, looks like, is when negotiations are complete and the two sides issue a joint communique signed by all parties.

Too right Merv.

As I've said previously, my SIL is a senior Civil Servant currently at DexEu and all she can tell me is about the UK's preparations.
The actual negotiations will be drip fed to the public.
Ultimately, it will be whatever Martin Selmayr agrees to.
He is the power broker in Brussels and has an unhealthy hatred of all things British.
My fiver is still on no deal.

I know a QC, and he's in touch with a senior civil servant. The civil servant has told him that, however bad it looks from the outside, it's actually worse on the inside

I think you are right about about no deal. I see that both Raab and Barnier are claiming progress made in talks today, but UK still haven't proposed a workable solution to the Irish border question. Raab says he wants a deal agreed before the EU summit on 17th October. As they haven't been able to sort out the Irish border in 2 years, I can't see a miracle happening in 6 weeks.

Do you not think that their thinking will become a lot clearer the closer they get to 17th October, it's amazing how a deadline suddenly crystallises the thought processes.

[Stephen]

Look. We sell stuff to Europe, they sell stuff to us. It make no economic sense for anyone to stop doing that once Brexit comes into play. If the scare monger remainers are so concerned, the ferry leaves in a couple of hours.

Nuff said.

[Mervyn and Trish]

A number of things are very clear on this thread.

No one here is going to change their mind, whatever is said. We made our decisions at the time of the vote and whatever polls may or may not say no one here appears to regret their choice.

There is equal rudeness from both sides.

Both sides claim to know things but actually none of us know anything first hand. As soon as we get anything via somebody who told someone else who got it from another source it will have been spun according to the beliefs in the links in the chain. I don't believe there is a single neutral expert or analyst in the country.

There are experts who support both views and can produce data to back their view.

There is no independent media or internet outlet. The Mail produces pro Brexit stories. The Guardian produces pro Remain stories, often from the same raw data. Neither is more valid than the other. The same applies across the board. A post the other day prompted me to look at the Bloomberg site. Interesting but a quick search of their previous posts showed they are as biased as everyone else.

Remainers continue to dismiss Brexiteers as idiots who were fooled by a dodgy campaign. Brexiteers continue to dismiss Remainers as Project Fear. Neither view is more valid than the other. Both are equally offensive.

The country is divided on this issue as it is on any other. Is Labour better than Conservative? Are wind farms a good thing or a bad thing? Is the BBC better or worse then Sky? Is P&O better than Celebrity? There is no right or wrong answer to any of these questions.

So we had a referendum, at which all aged 18 or over had the chance to vote. They even put back the required date to register in the hope of boosting the stay vote. Some bothered to do so, some didn't. Had either side managed to get all their supporters motivated they would have won by a mile.

But they didn't. A load of people couldn't be bothered and have no right to moan about the result.

Of those who did vote a majority voted to Leave. Never mind whether the question was right or wrong or the rules right or wrong. That was an issue to sort out before the vote, not after.

The majority was clear. The result was as valid as the result of any election we've had in living memory.

So we now have a government, not all of whom agreed with the vote, indeed led by someone who didn't, doing their best to implement a democratic decision. Whether everyone likes it or not.

Their efforts are not made any easier because Barnier and co can see the divisions here and will happily exploit them to try to make us change our minds. The EU has always favoured the approach of having another vote if they don't like the first one.

If we did have another vote and it got the opposite answer would that be the end of it?

If we have a vote on departure terms and reject them, then what?

One thing I did read on Bloomberg that rang true is that the EU approach to the negotiations is not to achieve a result which is mutually beneficial to the UK and other EU countries. It is to reach a conclusion which discourages anyone else from trying to leave. Around the EU there are other countries who do not like the way the EU works. Even in the most pro EU countries there are sizeble minorities with similar concerns to those of Brexiteers here.

The EU bureaucracy are like a club committee who, when members express concern about the club rules, won't even consider whether the members have a point but instead lock the exits to prevent them leaving.

We are told, rightly in my view though Jack and Gill may not believe that, that in negotiating our exit we must consider the views of the sizeable minority in the vote, as well as the majority. If we were not doing that we would have concluded a hard Brexit like it or not deal by now. The EU makes no such concession to its minorities.

And it doesn't mean the minority now get to trump the majority. They should have worked harder to win the vote instead of assuming we would fall into line and it was in the bag.

Now I've got all that off my chest maybe it's time to retire from this thread again. I'm beginning to find the discussion as offensive as Gill did previously, which was why I set this thread up so she could avoid it.

Time to take advantage of my own invention. I may set up a smoking children on sunbeds thread for light relief.

[Onelife]

Well summed up Sir Merv.....but just before you move onto smoking sunbeds l would like you to know this.....

If Brexit becomes a great success l will stand tall alongside leaders of men...If it fails l will become a follower of men..In particular you, barney, foxy, moby and towny....squeak squeak

[Jack Staff]

Can someone just explain how the United Kingdom can survive Brexit, without using the words faith, hope and belief please?

[oldbluefox]

Can someone just explain how the United Kingdom can survive Brexit, without using the words faith, hope and belief please?

For starters it would help if we presented a united front to Brussels. Opposition to Brexit must be like mannah from heaven to the EU. It hardly helps the negotiating process.

[Jack Staff]

Can someone just explain how the United Kingdom can survive Brexit, without using the words faith, hope and belief please?

For starters it would help if we presented a united front to Brussels. Opposition to Brexit must be like mannah from heaven to the EU. It hardly helps the negotiating process.

Even assuming that, how?

[oldbluefox]

I would have thought my post was self explanatory and needs no further explanation.

[Jack Staff]

I would have thought my post was self explanatory and needs no further explanation.

As with my reply. But you didn't answer the question.

[oldbluefox]

Here you are Jack. Just for you. Your personal survival guide

[Jack Staff]

Here you are Jack. Just for you. Your personal survival guide

I take it you can't explain how the United Kingdom will survive then.

[oldbluefox]

No intention of trying, We've gone round and round in circles so many times I should be dizzy but be my guest and enjoy the merry go round. Personally I am tired of answering the same questions ad nauseum. Everything you need is in the link I gave you from a true Remainer source.

[Jack Staff]

No intention of trying, We've gone round and round in circles so many times I should be dizzy but be my guest and enjoy the merry go round. Personally I am tired of answering the same questions ad nauseum. Everything you need is in the link I gave you from a true Remainer source.

You obviously misunderstood my question. I am not (at this moment) interested in my own personal survival.
The question was

Can someone just explain how the United Kingdom can survive Brexit, without using the words faith, hope and belief please?

[Onelife]

No intention of trying, We've gone round and round in circles so many times I should be dizzy but be my guest and enjoy the merry go round. Personally I am tired of answering the same questions ad nauseum. Everything you need is in the link I gave you from a true Remainer source.

You obviously misunderstood my question. I am not (at this moment) interested in my own personal survival.
The question was

Can someone just explain how the United Kingdom can survive Brexit, without using the words faith, hope and belief please?

Just for the record Jack...l prefer foxy's links to yours : thumbup:

[Onelife]

Hi Jack.... Brexit is a massive gamble, and yes, l do fear for what the future holds but the future was built on taking chances and chances only come to those who are prepared to see the opportunities.

Keith

[towny44]

No intention of trying, We've gone round and round in circles so many times I should be dizzy but be my guest and enjoy the merry go round. Personally I am tired of answering the same questions ad nauseum. Everything you need is in the link I gave you from a true Remainer source.

You obviously misunderstood my question. I am not (at this moment) interested in my own personal survival.
The question was

Can someone just explain how the United Kingdom can survive Brexit, without using the words faith, hope and belief please?

Jack, you seem fixated with the idea that Brexit will result in the break up of the UK. As I have said before despite both Scotland and N Ireland voting to remain, most of their electorate will respect the referendum vote, and it's unlikely either country could survive on its own. So they are unlikely to vote to leave especially as the EU has said it is uncertain they would be accepted as members, not least because of their dependence on Sterling. Wales is even less likely to vote to leave than the other 2.
Now if you want an outside bet, what about the ROI voting to leave the EU and linking up with the UK, now that's probably as likely the UK breaking up.

[Jack Staff]

Hi Jack.... Brexit is a massive gamble, and yes, l do fear for what the future holds but the future was built on taking chances and chances only come to those who are prepared to see the opportunities.

Keith

Keith, That's fine. But what I want to know is how Brexiters think the United Kingdom can survive if we get a 'proper' Brexit?

To exit the EU and trade under the unelected members of the WTO in Geneva, we have to have a hard border in NI (plus Gibraltar and Cyprus just to muddy the waters). Now even trump is talking about leaving the WTO, thus making a bad idea even worse.

We can't have a hard border because of the Good Friday Agreement and Government legislation.

Therefore the choice is stay in the customs union (vassal state, Brexiters and Remainers both unhappy, no chance of another Conservative government, so that won't happen), or remain in the EU.

The rabid Brexiter answer is to sacrifice NI to Ireland and the EU. I suspect this is also the SNP's preferred option as it almost guarantees Scotland's exit from the United Kingdom also. Again, both (sane) Brexiters and Remainers unhappy, but how could the Conservative and UNIONIST party even survive that one!

I just want to know what Brexiters think will happen, given what we already know about NI. Seemed like a simple question to me.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, you seem fixated with the idea that Brexit will result in the break up of the UK. As I have said before despite both Scotland and N Ireland voting to remain, most of their electorate will respect the referendum vote, and it's unlikely either country could survive on its own. So they are unlikely to vote to leave especially as the EU has said it is uncertain they would be accepted as members, not least because of their dependence on Sterling. Wales is even less likely to vote to leave than the other 2.
Now if you want an outside bet, what about the ROI voting to leave the EU and linking up with the UK, now that's probably as likely the UK breaking up.

Sorry John, that's not the case. NI already uses the Euro unofficially simply because it is in peoples pockets. NI would not be accepted as a member, simply the South will just get bigger. Scotland has already been promised membership, remember they are going into the 'waiting room'? Wales might kick up a bit but you are right on that one.
Your last line is breath taking. That is as likely as a successful Brexit.

[towny44]

Sorry John, that's not the case. NI already uses the Euro unofficially simply because it is in peoples pockets. NI would not be accepted as a member, simply the South will just get bigger. Scotland has already been promised membership, remember they are going into the 'waiting room'? Wales might kick up a bit but you are right on that one.
Your last line is breath taking. That is as likely as a successful Brexit.

Jack, I don't know the details of the Good Friday agreement, but I am fairly certain that in the event of a no deal brexit no court in the World would force the UK to remain in the EU nor the EU to relinquish it's 4 freedoms, they would just have to agree that it's dead in the water.
As for the DUP or it's Unionist supporters ever agreeing to merge with the ROI, that's as likely as turkeys supporting xmas.
I had almost forgotten the rather weak and last minute offer to NS about allowing Scotland into the waiting room, which of course is where Turkey and Serbia have been for a few years now. If you really believe that Scotland will be willing and able to fulfill the requirement to have it's own currency which meets the EU requirement for joining its club, and ultimately the Euro, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

[Manoverboard]

Scotland being accepted into the EU is surely a non-starter as the Spanish would block it else face the prospect of a Catalonian separatist State in their midst.

[Onelife]

Hi Jack.... Brexit is a massive gamble, and yes, l do fear for what the future holds but the future was built on taking chances and chances only come to those who are prepared to see the opportunities.

Keith

Keith, That's fine. But what I want to know is how Brexiters think the United Kingdom can survive if we get a 'proper' Brexit?

To exit the EU and trade under the unelected members of the WTO in Geneva, we have to have a hard border in NI (plus Gibraltar and Cyprus just to muddy the waters). Now even trump is talking about leaving the WTO, thus making a bad idea even worse.

We can't have a hard border because of the Good Friday Agreement and Government legislation.

Therefore the choice is stay in the customs union (vassal state, Brexiters and Remainers both unhappy, no chance of another Conservative government, so that won't happen), or remain in the EU.

The rabid Brexiter answer is to sacrifice NI to Ireland and the EU. I suspect this is also the SNP's preferred option as it almost guarantees Scotland's exit from the United Kingdom also. Again, both (sane) Brexiters and Remainers unhappy, but how could the Conservative and UNIONIST party even survive that one!

I just want to know what Brexiters think will happen, given what we already know about NI. Seemed like a simple question to me.

Hi Jack,

It is pointless going on about the ifs, buts, and whys until we know what the Brussels negotiations come up with,. My bet is that there will be a deal and whilst it won't be a deal that pleases everyone it will be a platform from which we can take our country in a different direction. Whatever happens we will survive, there'll be no falling over cliff edges.(less of course remainers talk themselves into a state of doom and gloom) We've made the decision to leave the EU, what is needed now is for those who know more than what we know to get on with getting the best deal possible for our country.

If no deal can be reached then the future is what we make it....end of.

P.s... l've taken Mobs advice and switched from filling my now full freezers to filling my garage with tinned produce.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, I don't know the details of the Good Friday agreement, but I am fairly certain that in the event of a no deal brexit no court in the World would force the UK to remain in the EU nor the EU to relinquish it's 4 freedoms, they would just have to agree that it's dead in the water.

While Brexiters have no regard for international law (GFA), what about British law? You know, what you voted for? To make our own laws, which we did and now you want to ignore?

As for the DUP or it's Unionist supporters ever agreeing to merge with the ROI, that's as likely as turkeys supporting xmas.

I was not thinking of the DUP. I was referring to the Tory party, their full name being the Conservative and Unionist party.
But thank you for opening up a new plot line. An upset DUP means this government falls.

I had almost forgotten the rather weak and last minute offer to NS about allowing Scotland into the waiting room, which of course is where Turkey and Serbia have been for a few years now. If you really believe that Scotland will be willing and able to fulfill the requirement to have it's own currency which meets the EU requirement for joining its club, and ultimately the Euro, then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Unlike Turkey and Serbia, Scots are EU citizens. They will get a friendly response from Brussels. I can already hear you saying "Look how the EU welcomes the Scots, just to punish us!"

[Jack Staff]

Scotland being accepted into the EU is surely a non-starter as the Spanish would block it else face the prospect of a Catalonian separatist State in their midst.

There is an interesting movement beginning (early days yet) to guarantee EU citizenship across the member states. If successful, the Catalans could remain EU citizens whatever. The fate of Catalonia would be a separate issue.

This also means that I would be able to retain my rights and freedoms that you have decided to deny yourself.

[Gill W]

Has this become the comedy thread? I just love Jack's idea that the internet contains all we need to know about the EU negotiations. The only people who know that are the people in the room. The rest is biased speculation in the case of media sites and carefully filtered spin in the case of the EU site. The latter is not the unedited minutes of the meetings. The only time we'll know what the deal, or not, looks like, is when negotiations are complete and the two sides issue a joint communique signed by all parties.

Too right Merv.

As I've said previously, my SIL is a senior Civil Servant currently at DexEu and all she can tell me is about the UK's preparations.
The actual negotiations will be drip fed to the public.
Ultimately, it will be whatever Martin Selmayr agrees to.
He is the power broker in Brussels and has an unhealthy hatred of all things British.
My fiver is still on no deal.

I know a QC, and he's in touch with a senior civil servant. The civil servant has told him that, however bad it looks from the outside, it's actually worse on the inside

I think you are right about about no deal. I see that both Raab and Barnier are claiming progress made in talks today, but UK still haven't proposed a workable solution to the Irish border question. Raab says he wants a deal agreed before the EU summit on 17th October. As they haven't been able to sort out the Irish border in 2 years, I can't see a miracle happening in 6 weeks.

Do you not think that their thinking will become a lot clearer the closer they get to 17th October, it's amazing how a deadline suddenly crystallises the thought processes.

I'm afraid I don't have enough faith to believe in miracles.