Brexit

[Ray Scully]

THE NEXT STAGE

Reality meets the Impossible dream

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/04/major-un ... l-7912996/

[Jack Staff]

It's far worse for Brexiters than just the GMB...

https://www.mumsnet.com/politics/seven- ... rexit-deal

That's one group you definitely want on your side.

[barney]

They are all the same people who are included in Jack's 300K

It's a bit like crime.
There are not loads of criminals, just the same few committing all of it.
There are not millions calling for this, just the same few popping up in different places where they can be heard.

The headline in The Independent (?) this morning was 2.6 million leavers have changed their minds.
Now, that is one hell of a poll
2.6 million ?
You can just make stuff up now days and stick it on the front of your daily rag.
The Daily Mail has been doing it for years so I suppose the 'Independent' thought it would join in.

[Jack Staff]

They are all the same people who are included in Jack's 300K

It's a bit like crime.
There are not loads of criminals, just the same few committing all of it.
There are not millions calling for this, just the same few popping up in different places where they can be heard.

The headline in The Independent (?) this morning was 2.6 million leavers have changed their minds.
Now, that is one hell of a poll
2.6 million ?
You can just make stuff up now days and stick it on the front of your daily rag.
The Daily Mail has been doing it for years so I suppose the 'Independent' thought it would join in.

Yeah, those damn Conservative boiler making mothers.

[barney]

I'm amazed that you think that only Conservatives are pro-Brexit jack.
You do know that 60% of Labour's constituencies voted to leave the EU, don't you?

A bit like old Jezza, I lean to the left but I am also anti remaining in the EU.
The only thing holding the Labour party together at the moment is that many deluded Labour MPs think that Corbyn is at some time going to ride to their rescue and come down on the side of Remain.
I think hell will freeze over before that happens.
Corbyn always has been against the EU and will continue to sit on the fence and let the Tories get on with it.

I wonder when the penny will drop in Ireland, that the EU are holding them hostage to negotiation.
Would it be when the EU start building border posts because one thing is certain, the UK are not going to construct any.
I wonder who will man this border, because I don't think that the Irish have much appetite for that. German border guards maybe?
There is no way that we can accept annexation of part of the UK so the EU proposal for a backstop is dead in the water.
Why they would even think that can fly is amazing.

The UK has proposed three different solutions
The UK has already solved the EU’s Irish problem three times.
First it offered the EU a ‘3 baskets’ relationship with the EU including regulatory alignment in the sorts of industries requiring a soft border in Ireland. The EU rejected it because it would ‘cherry-pick’ the EU single market and ruin the backstop the EU was brewing.

Second, the UK offered the EU a UK-wide backstop until the end of 2021. The EU rejected it because it would destroy the whole point of the EU’s planned Northern Irish backstop, namely, to hold Northern Ireland as an EU hostage in case you the EU turns against whatever UK-EU free trade agreement happens in future (UK refusal to offer free movement, for example), or dislikes the UK’s independent trade and regulatory policy (free trade deal with China, regulatory alignment with the USA, etc.).

Third, the UK offered the EU the Chequers plan offering full regulatory alignment in goods and agriculture which, again, solves the Irish border. The EU rejected it because it would ‘cherry-pick’ the EU single market, and prevent the EU keeping Northern Ireland hostage.
In other words, the UK has offered the Republic of Ireland 3 lifeboats, and every single one has been smashed by the EU before they even reached water.

Meanwhile the EU has tried and failed to make Northern Ireland an EU hostage with its ‘backstop’.
It has also failed to make the whole UK hostage with its ‘Norway+’ proposal, of indefinite EU customs union and single market membership (all the disadvantages of Norway, and none of the advantages of Norway).
It has now run out of time to come up with new blackmail.
So the EU, having failed to take Northern Ireland or the whole UK hostage will now take the Republic of Ireland hostage instead.
The Republic of Ireland will be told explicitly by Berlin and Brussels that the EU customs union and single market are all that matters, that the EU must impose a hard customs and regulatory border.
The Republic of Ireland could have spent the past 2 years and 2 months devising a Brexit strategy suited to its own interests.
Instead its craven political class surrendered its policy to the EU which long ago condemned the Republic of Ireland as expendable in its overall blackmail strategy.

Please feel free to dissect and tell me which parts of the above are not accurate.

Regards
Barney
Posted on 9/4/18 | 6:34 AM CEST

[Jack Staff]

The four freedoms are indivisible. We knew that before 2016.
To trade under WTO we have to have a hard border in NI. We knew that before 2016.

Brexiters have had over two years to come up with a plan. They can't. Brexit is dead.

[towny44]

The four freedoms are indivisible. We knew that before 2016.
To trade under WTO we have to have a hard border in NI. We knew that before 2016.

Brexiters have had over two years to come up with a plan. They can't. Brexit is dead.

I doubt that many civil servants in the trade dept knew both Jack, never mind MPs and the wider electorate. If you can honestly say that you knew both before the referendum then either you should be running the country, or more likely its just another of your fantasies.

[Jack Staff]

The four freedoms are indivisible. We knew that before 2016.
To trade under WTO we have to have a hard border in NI. We knew that before 2016.

Brexiters have had over two years to come up with a plan. They can't. Brexit is dead.

I doubt that many civil servants in the trade dept knew both Jack, never mind MPs and the wider electorate. If you can honestly say that you knew both before the referendum then either you should be running the country, or more likely its just another of your fantasies.

'We' as in the British. 'The people' did not know, because at the time of the vote WTO was laughable, remember Dan Hannan? "Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the customs union".

[barney]

By Brexiteers, do you mean Her Majesty's Government ?
It is their responsibility to see through the will of the majority.
They stood on a clear manifesto of leaving the EU. (as did the opposition by the way)
I remember May's Lancaster House speech which was reiterated in Florence.
It was unambiguous.
She should just get on and do it.
The mistake that May has made was concentrating on getting a deal instead of concentrating on leaving the EU.

You anti democrats will not prevail.
The people have spoken.

[Ray Scully]

You anti democrats will not prevail.
The people have spoken.

Barney,and no doubt will speak again with the knowledge they were promised the unachievable.

[oldbluefox]

You anti democrats will not prevail.
The people have spoken.

Barney,and no doubt will speak again with the knowledge they were promised the unachievable.

......................which explains one of the reasons I voted to get out. Over the years we have become more and more dependent on the EU and they have gradually created a system which makes it very awkward to disentangle ourselves without their say so. And the longer we belong to this outfit the more it will cost us and the closer we will be drawn into their dream of a federal Europe. In past posts the word 'reliance' has been used. Have we really come to the stage where we can no longer stand on our own two feet without relying on an unelected body in Brussels?

[Jack Staff]

By Brexiteers, do you mean Her Majesty's Government ?
It is their responsibility to see through the will of the majority.
They stood on a clear manifesto of leaving the EU. (as did the opposition by the way)
I remember May's Lancaster House speech which was reiterated in Florence.
It was unambiguous.
She should just get on and do it.
The mistake that May has made was concentrating on getting a deal instead of concentrating on leaving the EU.

You anti democrats will not prevail.
The people have spoken.

"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p'ed off with you when they hit the ground." Professor Brian Cox.

[towny44]

By Brexiteers, do you mean Her Majesty's Government ?
It is their responsibility to see through the will of the majority.
They stood on a clear manifesto of leaving the EU. (as did the opposition by the way)
I remember May's Lancaster House speech which was reiterated in Florence.
It was unambiguous.
She should just get on and do it.
The mistake that May has made was concentrating on getting a deal instead of concentrating on leaving the EU.

You anti democrats will not prevail.
The people have spoken.

"You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very p'ed off with you when they hit the ground." Professor Brian Cox.

Jack, please try to bring some originality into your examples.

[Jack Staff]

Barney,and no doubt will speak again with the knowledge they were promised the unachievable.

......................which explains one of the reasons I voted to get out. Over the years we have become more and more dependent on the EU

Yes we have, but it is a two way street, as with any team.

and they have gradually created a system which makes it very awkward to disentangle ourselves without their say so.

We all created the system, with a huge influence from the British. We even wrote Article 50.
We said "We want to leave", the EU said "ok".
What did you not understand about 'leave means leave', 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'you can't have your cake and eat it'?

And the longer we belong to this outfit the more it will cost us and the closer we will be drawn into their dream of a federal Europe.

Some across the EU have a dream of closer union, some don't. Until March next year we still have our veto, if we chose to use it for anything like this.

In past posts the word 'reliance' has been used. Have we really come to the stage where we can no longer stand on our own two feet without relying on an unelected body in Brussels?

They are not unelected. Unlike the unelected body in Geneva, the WTO.
Over the last forty years we have "come to the stage where we can no longer stand on our own two feet " along with every other country of any substance (China being the one exception). Every country is nowadays in a trading block. We are in the best one, until March at least.
You can not turn back the clock to a time that no longer exists.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, please try to bring some originality into your examples.

? What would you like?

[Onelife]

You anti democrats will not prevail.
The people have spoken.

Barney,and no doubt will speak again with the knowledge they were promised the unachievable.

......................which explains one of the reasons I voted to get out. Over the years we have become more and more dependent on the EU and they have gradually created a system which makes it very awkward to disentangle ourselves without their say so. And the longer we belong to this outfit the more it will cost us and the closer we will be drawn into their dream of a federal Europe. In past posts the word 'reliance' has been used. Have we really come to the stage where we can no longer stand on our own two feet without relying on an unelected body in Brussels?

.. nope! It deserves another

[johnds]

The four freedoms are indivisible. We knew that before 2016.
To trade under WTO we have to have a hard border in NI. We knew that before 2016.

Brexiters have had over two years to come up with a plan. They can't. Brexit is dead.

Jack
If you truly believe that Brexit is dead then why are you wasting your time trying to change my mind

[towny44]

They are not unelected. Unlike the unelected body in Geneva, the WTO.
Over the last forty years we have "come to the stage where we can no longer stand on our own two feet " along with every other country of any substance (China being the one exception). Every country is nowadays in a trading block. We are in the best one, until March at least.
You can not turn back the clock to a time that no longer exists.

The EU officials are certainly not elected directly by the electorate, they are appointed somehow that smacks of corruption, according to this mornings Daily Mail about Martin Selmayr.
I think to a man all the brexiteers on this forum have stated they would be very happy to remain in a Common Market style free trade area, in which we would have no real need for the Junckers, Tusks and Selmayrs of the current political cesspit that is the EU.

[oldbluefox]

The four freedoms are indivisible. We knew that before 2016.
To trade under WTO we have to have a hard border in NI. We knew that before 2016.

Brexiters have had over two years to come up with a plan. They can't. Brexit is dead.

Jack
If you truly believe that Brexit is dead then why are you wasting your time trying to change my mind

And what is the point of a second referendum if you know Brexit is dead? What you are saying is we are locked into the EU and there is no way out. What a load of b*******/balderdash!! I presume we are being led by the Remoaners to believe we, as a nation, are so lily-livered that we are no longer capable of managing for ourselves having already been bought out by the EU.
Personally I believe there will be a deal, albeit very last minute for the stakes for the EU are so high if UK leaves without a deal. All of this talk about 'falling off a cliff', food shortages, crises in the NHS, medication shortages are an over reaction to scaremongering which causes genuine concern to some.
Remember the stories going around at the turn of the century that computers would not be able to cope with the millennium change? It seems some of these so-called experts thrive on crisis, and, of course, some made loads of money out of it.
I presume a lot of those in the Remain camp have their fingers firmly in the EU pie and will be wetting themselves by the very thought of Brexit.
Interestingly in the 2014 EU elections there was only a 35.6% turnout of the UK electorate. Hardly the will of the people when 64.4% did not vote.

[Jack Staff]

The EU officials are certainly not elected directly by the electorate, they are appointed somehow that smacks of corruption, according to this mornings Daily Mail about Martin Selmayr.

I missed the election by the electorate of Theresa May as PM, and her appointed ministers that somehow 'smacks', like disgraced former defence minister Fox and that blonde haired guy. Who is Nick Timothy?

I think to a man all the brexiteers on this forum have stated they would be very happy to remain in a Common Market style free trade area, in which we would have no real need for the Junckers, Tusks and Selmayrs of the current political cesspit that is the EU.

That is no longer available.

[Jack Staff]

The four freedoms are indivisible. We knew that before 2016.
To trade under WTO we have to have a hard border in NI. We knew that before 2016.

Brexiters have had over two years to come up with a plan. They can't. Brexit is dead.

Jack
If you truly believe that Brexit is dead then why are you wasting your time trying to change my mind

And what is the point of a second referendum if you know Brexit is dead?

Just to formally put it to bed.

What you are saying is we are locked into the EU and there is no way out.

I did not say that. We have proved there is a way out. It is called Article 50. We have also proved leaving is not a viable option for us at this time.

What a load of b*******/balderdash!! I presume we are being led by the Remoaners to believe we, as a nation, are so lily-livered that we are no longer capable of managing for ourselves having already been bought out by the EU.

No, just that the 'outside' world is not now how you remember it.

Personally I believe there will be a deal, albeit very last minute for the stakes for the EU are so high if UK leaves without a deal.

The stakes for the UK are even higher and yes the EU will be guilty of looking after themselves.

All of this talk about 'falling off a cliff', food shortages, crises in the NHS, medication shortages are an over reaction to scaremongering which causes genuine concern to some.

Only those without ostrich like tendencies.

Remember the stories going around at the turn of the century that computers would not be able to cope with the millennium change? It seems some of these so-called experts thrive on crisis, and, of course, some made loads of money out of it.

I spent a large proportion of 1999 ensuring that there was no problem to our company. There was going to be a problem, but many thousands around the world worked to make sure it was avoided. Your thinking is akin to the Captain of the Titanic saying "we didn't hit it last time".

I presume a lot of those in the Remain camp have their fingers firmly in the EU pie and will be wetting themselves by the very thought of Brexit.
Interestingly in the 2014 EU elections there was only a 35.6% turnout of the UK electorate. Hardly the will of the people when 64.4% did not vote.

My whole body is in the EU pie, I am European, just like you (I assume). In 2014 no one had any interest in the EU, because all they were told was bendy bananas.

[oldbluefox]

I think to a man all the brexiteers on this forum have stated they would be very happy to remain in a Common Market style free trade area, in which we would have no real need for the Junckers, Tusks and Selmayrs of the current political cesspit that is the EU.

That is no longer available.

So what is the Canada Agreement known as CETA?
Barnier has already hinted at a Canada+ Agreement which is much more positive than his usual rebuttals and Jack's notes of pessimism that the world will come to an end if we don't stay in the rosy glow of the EU.
Common sense says there will be a deal as it is in the best interests of the EU and the UK despite the gloomy forecasts of the Remain camp and their attempts to intimidate people to their side. It doesn't help that this government seem to be totally incompetent and at odds with each other, a PM who is not committed and tries to appease both sides and a Remain group of self interested people who are doing everything they can to disrupt the process.
It is ludicrous to believe that discussions taking place between UK and the EU are being posted on the internet. I would imagine they will all be top secret on both sides of the equation and more will be going on behind the scenes than we are party to. Anything else is pure speculation despite some thinking they know what they are talking about.

[oldbluefox]

I presume a lot of those in the Remain camp have their fingers firmly in the EU pie and will be wetting themselves by the very thought of Brexit.
Interestingly in the 2014 EU elections there was only a 35.6% turnout of the UK electorate. Hardly the will of the people when 64.4% did not vote.

My whole body is in the EU pie, I am European, just like you (I assume). In 2014 no one had any interest in the EU, because all they were told was bendy bananas.

Oh dear Jack!!! Is that the best you could come up with? Another of your Mornin' All responses. I think you misunderstand people.
People didn't bother with the elections because they didn't believe in it. What they really wanted was a referendum on in or out, not to elect new MEPs, as evidenced by the turnout in the referendum eventually forced upon Cameron by the growing emergence of UKIP.

[Jack Staff]

So what is the Canada Agreement known as CETA?

Something that does not solve the NI border, so is not an available option.

[Onelife]

What l can say for certain is that if Jack and the remainers were to get a second referendum which resulted in the democratic will of the people being reversed, it would cause a divide in this country the likes of which this country has never seen before, it would be far worse than a few marches on the streets, it will have discredited the very thing that this country holds dear "Democracy". A democratic vote dosen't work the way Jack & Co wants it to work.... it works by way of the majority who voted.

Please Jack, don't give me...but, but, they told lies?.....l can't think of any referendum or election where bullsh*t, lies, haven't been used by both sides....its what happens, but we still end up with a democratically represented decision. ...that's democracy working at its best..

Be careful what you wish for remainers....The consequences of your actions could be far more damaging to our country than your perceived views on Brexit.