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Brexit

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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

screwy wrote: 08 Sep 2018, 17:06
And I feel that I make a valid point,glasses half full.Its not an attitude.Barney made a valid post which some don’t seem to want to accept. It’s all opinions and they are like Bottoms, everyone has one.
It wasn’t the ‘glass half full’ part that I objected too.

It was keep ‘picking ‘em off’, that i didn’t like. In other words keep brushing aside people who aren’t in our gang. That’s the attitude I was referring to

(I have no problem with what Barney said)
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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

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Jack Staff wrote: 08 Sep 2018, 18:33
I don't know about anybody else, but I off to find Merv for a while, until a little bit of decorum returns here.
Me too
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Onelife
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Onelife »

I'm sticking around even if l have to argue with myself.....Ah well, Sweden go to the ballot boxes today, with the democratic far right party expected to do very well. I'm not sure how Sweden will view this but it won't do,our Brexit negotiations any harm.

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Re: Brexit

Unread post by towny44 »

Onelife wrote: 08 Sep 2018, 22:09
I'm sticking around even if l have to argue with myself.....Ah well, Sweden go to the ballot boxes today, with the democratic far right party expected to do very well. I'm not sure how Sweden will view this but it won't do,our Brexit negotiations any harm.
Not sure about that Keith, Juncker and his pals are never wrong about anything, so they will be looking for someone to blame for any far right uprising, and I guess we know who their current favourite fall guy is!
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Onelife
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Onelife »

Hi John,

l was thinking more along the lines that if Junker & Co take a harder line on us for fear of the anti- EU- anti immigration far right party stirring things within the EU bloc then it could back fire badly on them.......Brexiteers will harden their stance as would other countries within the EU who object to open boarders . To further our right to take back control we need to let the control freaks of Europe hang themselves. If they use use us as an example as to why you shouldn't leave they will ultimately show everyone why they should.

Regards

keith
Last edited by Onelife on 09 Sep 2018, 00:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Onelife
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Re: Brexit

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I watched "last night at the proms" last night and was appalled to see this very British tradition hijacked by an orchestrated band of EU flag waving remoaners.....It matters not that they were protesting about the free movement of musicians/orchestras.....They should have had more respect.

Neither the right time or the right place in my opinion.....l won't argue with you on that one Keith :thumbup:

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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

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Onelife wrote: 09 Sep 2018, 08:26
I watched "last night at the proms" last night and was appalled to see this very British tradition hijacked by an orchestrated band of EU flag waving remoaners.....It matters not that they were protesting about the free movement of musicians/orchestras.....They should have had more respect.

Neither the right time or the right place in my opinion.....l won't argue with you on that one Keith :thumbup:
I was thinking that too. It is customary for the promenaders to wave their national flags but the EU is not a nation. I presume there was somebody outside handing out hats and flags (no doubt paid for by Mr Soros) but the Proms was not the place for a mildly political protest.
Not to worry it would be their very last farewell cos by next year we will be out.
Personally I have no time for people old enough to know better dressing up in ridiculous outfits bobbing up and down like silly children. It's all very immature to me. Bah humbug!!!

btw who's this Keith you are not arguing with? :lol:

Addendum: Apparently it was a stunt organised by somebody calling themselves EU Flag Mafia. Do they not realise how nauseating they are to the rest of us? :roll:
Last edited by oldbluefox on 09 Sep 2018, 11:41, edited 2 times in total.
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towny44
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Re: Brexit

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Onelife wrote: 09 Sep 2018, 00:04
Hi John,

l was thinking more along the lines that if Junker & Co take a harder line on us for fear of the anti- EU- anti immigration far right party stirring things within the EU bloc then it could back fire badly on them.......Brexiteers will harden their stance as would other countries within the EU who object to open boarders . To further our right to take back control we need to let the control freaks of Europe hang themselves. If they use use us as an example as to why you shouldn't leave they will ultimately show everyone why they should.

Regards

keith
You are assuming that Juncker & Co have the basic intelligence to understand your theory Keith, the problem is these people were no-ones before the EU gave them status and power and they have no intention of giving that up, and they only seem to know one way to achieve that, which is ever greater integration to make the EU bigger and therefore their pay and status bigger as well.
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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

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Ray Scully
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Re: Brexit

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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

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Hardly earth shattering stating the obvious. Looks like The Times were desperate for a story.
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barney
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Re: Brexit

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Could we guarantee that had remain won, there would never be another recession?. I tend to concurr with Foxy. Slow news day.
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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

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"He said that Brexit offered opportunities but the UK would still be subjected to “buffeting pressures in the global economy” that the government would not be able to control".

The headline could have read 'Fox reveals Brexit offers opportunities'. Clearly they decided that would not sell newspapers so they decided to get the Remainers excited. It seems it worked!!!

I would have thought this was more significant.
Last edited by oldbluefox on 10 Sep 2018, 08:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Onelife
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Re: Brexit

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Hi all,


If what we are told is right we can expect a Brexit decision in 6-8 weeks time?....With the announcement  today that Moggy has withdrawn his alternative brexit so plan it all leads to the Chequers deal...see below




Trade

The plan aims to ensure the frictionless trade of goods and stop queues at the border with the EU by observing all the bloc’s rules on them.

This proposal seems to be particularly aimed at solving any problems around the “just in time” trade of fresh foods.


“The UK and the EU would maintain a common rulebook for all goods including agri-food, with the UK making an upfront choice to commit by treaty to ongoing harmonisation with EU rules on goods, covering only those necessary to provide for frictionless trade at the border,” the document states.

Yet, under the Chequers plan, the UK would not adopt EU rules on all services. The government believes that the ability to be flexible when trading with countries outside the EU could offer Britain bigger fortunes and therefore be worth the “cost” of tariffs or barriers with the bloc.

“We would strike different arrangements for services, where it is in our interests to have regulatory flexibility, recognising the UK and the EU will not have current levels of access to each other’s market,” the document states.

The government believes this would provide a fair and balanced plan which solves the issue of the Northern Ireland border with Ireland.

The plan also says that the UK would leave the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy, “taking back control of UK waters as an independent coastal state and designing a domestic agricultural policy that works in the best interests of the UK”.

Immigration

Under the Chequers plan, Britain would gain full control of immigration and be able to decide who can enter the country.

“[E]nd free movement, giving the UK back control over how many people enter the country,” the document says.

There would, the plan adds, be a “mobility framework” so that “UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other’s territories” and apply for study and work.

Law-making

All laws would be made at the Westminster Parliament, and where applicable, the devolved legislatures, even where laws affect EU rules governing trade.

If any UK laws contravene EU rules, politicians would make their decisions in the knowledge that it could put trade with the bloc at risk.

“[E]nsure that in the future all laws in the UK would be legislated for by Parliament and the Devolved Administrations and subject to proper oversight and scrutiny,” the plan states.

The plan also seeks to restore the supremacy of UK courts – withdrawing Britain from the purview of the Court of Justice of the European Union. (It’s worth noting that this is not the European Court of Human Rights.) 

The environment, climate change, employment and consumer protection

Under the Chequers plan, all these would be subject to joint UK-EU deals “meaning we would not let standards fall below their current levels.”

Annual payments

The plan says that “vast annual payments” to the EU, most recently estimated at £13.1bn, would be a thing of the past.

There would be “appropriate contributions” towards budgets for certain areas, such as science and research.

But savings would be spent on “domestic priorities… in particular our long-term plan for the NHS”


........


Not what brexiteers voted for but l can live with it as l see it as a stepping stone to where we eventually want to be. It will also allow us time to establish ourselves in the wider trade markets of the world.


Squeak! squeak!

Oh!.....and welcome back Jack :lol:
Last edited by Onelife on 11 Sep 2018, 10:54, edited 1 time in total.

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towny44
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Re: Brexit

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Let's hope you are right Keith, not the clean break I wanted, but like you say we could always revisit it in a few years time, once the new relationship has bedded down
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barney
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Re: Brexit

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I have quite a few issues with Chequers.

When it says 'common rule book' it actually means the EU rule book.
However, I think that the country can live with this compromise if the EU side accept it. (which I doubt without more concessions)

The prize is leaving the EU.

Once out, and over a period of time, the UK Government can decide which bits they want to be close to the EU and which parts we need total autonomy.

My personal opinion is that had we played hardball in the first place (that is, standard WTO terms with EU countries) all of this would have been done and dusted now, either way.

The real prize for the UK is not being under EU rules for financial services.
The slight loss of no automatic passporting into the EU market will be dwarfed by the worldwide potential.
It's a massive win for the City of London.

I think that the EU side has now digested the fact that the UK leaves in 199 days and is now seriously looking to protect their own industries.
To lose such a massive market and wealthy consumer right on their own door step would be a tragedy for them.
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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

Re Rees-Mogg - I don't think the Brexiters actually had a plan in the first place.

Re Chequers. If thats the only game in town, I'm not sure if it's going anywhere. It was claimed yesterday that 80 Conservative MP's would vote against it in Parliament. However, I doubt if it'd get that far, as EU have already turned their nose up at Chequers.

As Barney says, time is short. After two years, no one can agree what Brexit looks like. They will have to move heaven and earth to agree something in 6 - 8 weeks.

Most likely outcome, they'll agree an extension to the Article 50 period, and the whole thing will continue to drift along. There seems to be no urgency from our politicians, so I think that'd suit them.

We will most likely still be having these conversations this time next year!
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barney
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Re: Brexit

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Except that at the end of March next year, the UK leaves the EU.
There is a facility in Article 50 for an extension, but that has to be agreed by all parties.
That is, the UK, and the Governments of all the other 27.
If one disagrees, all bets are off.
I'd wager that Italy would hang out for some concession from the EU regarding immigration, if it came to that.

I think that the UK will leave next year, but with some sort of botched fudged arrangement, a bit like the Chequers proposal.

The irony of it all, is the EU's rejection of every single thing that the UK has proposed, but have offered nothing back.
Their response is simply that they are not the ones leaving, therefore it's not up to them.

Article 50 says differently.

Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3)[10] of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council [of the European Union], acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Onelife »

Gill W wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 14:48
Re Rees-Mogg - I don't think the Brexiters actually had a plan in the first place.

Re Chequers. If thats the only game in town, I'm not sure if it's going anywhere. It was claimed yesterday that 80 Conservative MP's would vote against it in Parliament. However, I doubt if it'd get that far, as EU have already turned their nose up at Chequers.

As Barney says, time is short. After two years, no one can agree what Brexit looks like. They will have to move heaven and earth to agree something in 6 - 8 weeks.

Most likely outcome, they'll agree an extension to the Article 50 period, and the whole thing will continue to drift along. There seems to be no urgency from our politicians, so I think that'd suit them.

We will most likely still be having these conversations this time next year
Hi Gill....what MP's say they will do and what they actually do has been played out thousands of times in parliament.....The whipping boys will bring most of them into line.

Whether it is a clean break or Chequers what is needed now is that the remainners are brought back into line....Ouch!......Our EU negotiations need us all to be pulling in the same direction.

:wave:
Last edited by Onelife on 11 Sep 2018, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by oldbluefox »

Gill W wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 14:48
Re Rees-Mogg - I don't think the Brexiters actually had a plan in the first place.
Have you read this Gill? I don't know where these stories that Brexiters don't have a plan although I can guess. Yet another untruth to go with all the others.
'Earlier this week, arch-Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg said that he and the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, agreed that the Chequers plan "is absolute rubbish and that we should chuck it and what we should have is a Canada-style free trade deal”.'

You are right that Cameron didn't have a plan because he was sure everybody would vote to Remain He got that wrong as well.
Last edited by oldbluefox on 11 Sep 2018, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

Onelife wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 16:05
Gill W wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 14:48
Re Rees-Mogg - I don't think the Brexiters actually had a plan in the first place.

Re Chequers. If thats the only game in town, I'm not sure if it's going anywhere. It was claimed yesterday that 80 Conservative MP's would vote against it in Parliament. However, I doubt if it'd get that far, as EU have already turned their nose up at Chequers.

As Barney says, time is short. After two years, no one can agree what Brexit looks like. They will have to move heaven and earth to agree something in 6 - 8 weeks.

Most likely outcome, they'll agree an extension to the Article 50 period, and the whole thing will continue to drift along. There seems to be no urgency from our politicians, so I think that'd suit them.

We will most likely still be having these conversations this time next year
Hi Gill....what MP's say they will do and what they actually do has been played out thousands of times in parliament.....The whipping boys will bring most of them into line.

Whether it is a clean break or Chequers what is needed now is that the remainners are brought back into line....Ouch!......Our EU negotiations need us all to be pulling in the same direction.

:wave:
Er, I think i
oldbluefox wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 16:53
[quote="Gill W" post_id=236622 time=<a href="tel:1536673704">1536673704</a> user_id=347]
Re Rees-Mogg - I don't think the Brexiters actually had a plan in the first place.
Have you read this Gill? I don't know where these stories that Brexiters don't have a plan although I can guess. Yet another untruth to go with all the others.
'Earlier this week, arch-Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg said that he and the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, agreed that the Chequers plan "is absolute rubbish and that we should chuck it and what we should have is a Canada-style free trade deal”.'

You are right that Cameron didn't have a plan because he was sure everybody would vote to Remain He got that wrong as well.
[/quote]
If they had a plan, why didn’t they reveal it like they said they were going to? What’s going to happen next? They are hardly likely to miraculously unite behind Chequers as it is deemed to be rubbish. As Chequers is the only thing the govt has produced, it seems to be a bit of an impasse
Gill

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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

Onelife wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 16:05
Gill W wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 14:48
Re Rees-Mogg - I don't think the Brexiters actually had a plan in the first place.

Re Chequers. If thats the only game in town, I'm not sure if it's going anywhere. It was claimed yesterday that 80 Conservative MP's would vote against it in Parliament. However, I doubt if it'd get that far, as EU have already turned their nose up at Chequers.

As Barney says, time is short. After two years, no one can agree what Brexit looks like. They will have to move heaven and earth to agree something in 6 - 8 weeks.

Most likely outcome, they'll agree an extension to the Article 50 period, and the whole thing will continue to drift along. There seems to be no urgency from our politicians, so I think that'd suit them.

We will most likely still be having these conversations this time next year
Hi Gill....what MP's say they will do and what they actually do has been played out thousands of times in parliament.....The whipping boys will bring most of them into line.

Whether it is a clean break or Chequers what is needed now is that the remainners are brought back into line....Ouch!......Our EU negotiations need us all to be pulling in the same direction.

:wave:
I think it’s Brexiters that need to be brought back into line. The 80 mp comment was made by a ERG Euro sceptic guy.
Gill

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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by oldbluefox »

Brexiter politicians have always known what they wanted. Unfortunately the negotiations were being led by a PM who was a Remainer, civil servants who were Remainers and a Chancellor who is a strong Remainer. She attempted to pacify both sides against Barnier who gave a resounding Non to all of her proposals. Frustrated by the shenanigans going on backstage Fox and Davis resigned following her Chequers proposals.
For a long time Rees Mogg has been pushing for a Canada Plus agreement, something which Barnier has also endorsed. For whatever reason she ignores a solution staring her in the face. For my money that is the direction we should be heading especially since it has Barnier's approval.
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Gill W
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by Gill W »

The Brexiters in the cabinet have rubbished Chequers, said they’d reveal their plans and now have decided not to. It’s so unconstructive. If he revealed a detailed plan, then it’d be more difficult for May to ignore
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oldbluefox
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Re: Brexit

Unread post by oldbluefox »

They have declared their plans!!! It's Canada Plus. Even Barnier has dismissed Chequers but still TM sticks with it.
Would you like me to post the link again?
Last edited by oldbluefox on 11 Sep 2018, 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
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