Life After Brexit

[Kendhni]

Leaving the EU and seeking a trade deal is mainly a cold and calculating affair, each side doing their best for their own. Fishing is, perhaps, the raw emotion of what it represents. For the average Joe it can be difficult to comprehend the finer points of negotiation in most sectors but fishing conjures up an image of a feller from a small fishing Port in Cornwall who is fighting the odds, plus the French and Spanish of course, in an attempt to make a decent living. Recent TV programs of the region have re-enforced that image. So are we, as a nation, wanting to win a small victory rather than witness the cocky militant French fishermen getting one over us yet again. Not factual but it is, or could be, highly emotional and against that background we do not wish to be seen to lose the battle it represents.

ps ... standing by for a correction

I would mostly agree. Using fishing is purely an emotional thing - there is no logic in this stance.

It is emotion that drives the entire departure for the vast majority of Brits of course but surely the EU stand off is about demonstrating to the French fishermen that they tried but couldn't quite pull it off ... if that proves to be the case ?

That is the problem with many who are thinking with their hearts and not with their heads, they are letting emotion win over logic (applies to both sides). As I said to onelife though we need to determine our USP. All this faux jingoism, triumphalism and redlines only go to get others backs up when we need as much goodwill as possible. People have to stop just reading headlines and then thinking they are experts - you have to at least read at couple of different opposing versions of the story and learn to draw your own conclusions ... based on logic rather than emotion.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Of course if previous governments going back over many years had listened to a variety of opinions including some outside the M25 instead of just consulting their dinner party mates we wouldn't be where we are now. They would have heard and addressed concerns about aspects of the EU rather than sticking their heads in the sand and the referendum would never have happened.

[Onelife]

Stay strong Boris...no surrender!



https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... pean-union

[Onelife]

.............

[barney]

Martin Wansleben is spreading fake news keefy.
It’s only going to be a catastrophe in the U.K..
How do I know?
Well, an expert on a cruise forum told me

[Onelife]

Martin Wansleben is spreading fake news keefy.
It’s only going to be a catastrophe in the U.K..
How do I know?
Well, an expert on a cruise forum told me

[Ray Scully]

Of course if previous governments going back over many years had listened to a variety of opinions including some outside the M25 instead of just consulting their dinner party mates we wouldn't be where we are now. They would have heard and addressed concerns about aspects of the EU rather than sticking their heads in the sand and the referendum would never have happened.

[oldbluefox]

Unrest with the EU had been building for a number of years mainly in those areas of the country which had suffered lack of investment over decades under different governments. Major and Blair both offered referenda and both reneged once they got into power and neither did anything to address the issues. On the contrary they cemented closer relationships with the EU whilst ignoring inequalities.
I have been looking at EU investment in this part of the country. Money has been spent here on minor cosmetic projects which would have no long-lasting benefit to the citizens. Meanwhile the basic infrastructure is archaic - poor road links, aged rail rolling stock, above average unemployment due to lack of job opportunities etc etc. As one local put it "We get nowt cos we've got nowt!" It was a strong Labour stronghold and had never been Tory until the last election......

[Kendhni]

Unrest with the EU had been building for a number of years mainly in those areas of the country which had suffered lack of investment over decades under different governments. Major and Blair both offered referenda and both reneged once they got into power and neither did anything to address the issues. On the contrary they cemented closer relationships with the EU whilst ignoring inequalities.
I have been looking at EU investment in this part of the country. Money has been spent here on minor cosmetic projects which would have no long-lasting benefit to the citizens. Meanwhile the basic infrastructure is archaic - poor road links, aged rail rolling stock, above average unemployment due to lack of job opportunities etc etc. As one local put it "We get nowt cos we've got nowt!" It was a strong Labour stronghold and had never been Tory until the last election......

I think you are pointing your ire in the wrong direction and you should aim it much closer to home.

[barney]

Unrest with the EU had been building for a number of years mainly in those areas of the country which had suffered lack of investment over decades under different governments. Major and Blair both offered referenda and both reneged once they got into power and neither did anything to address the issues. On the contrary they cemented closer relationships with the EU whilst ignoring inequalities.
I have been looking at EU investment in this part of the country. Money has been spent here on minor cosmetic projects which would have no long-lasting benefit to the citizens. Meanwhile the basic infrastructure is archaic - poor road links, aged rail rolling stock, above average unemployment due to lack of job opportunities etc etc. As one local put it "We get nowt cos we've got nowt!" It was a strong Labour stronghold and had never been Tory until the last election......

I think you are pointing your ire in the wrong direction and you should aim it much closer to home.

Honestly, you couldn’t make it up.
Is everything Eu good and everything U.K. bad?
I’m actually amazed that you continue to reside here.
Brainwashing is alive and well and living in the dark depths of some minds.

[towny44]

Unrest with the EU had been building for a number of years mainly in those areas of the country which had suffered lack of investment over decades under different governments. Major and Blair both offered referenda and both reneged once they got into power and neither did anything to address the issues. On the contrary they cemented closer relationships with the EU whilst ignoring inequalities.
I have been looking at EU investment in this part of the country. Money has been spent here on minor cosmetic projects which would have no long-lasting benefit to the citizens. Meanwhile the basic infrastructure is archaic - poor road links, aged rail rolling stock, above average unemployment due to lack of job opportunities etc etc. As one local put it "We get nowt cos we've got nowt!" It was a strong Labour stronghold and had never been Tory until the last election......

I think you are pointing your ire in the wrong direction and you should aim it much closer to home.

Ken, I think we all accept your greater knowledge of the N Ireland issues, although living cheek by jowl with an EU country could well be influencing your pro EU sympathies. However when it comes to the neglected regions of the UK, then you really should try and listen and understand the criticisms in an objective manner, rather than apply the subjectivity of living in a country that depends almost totally on the EU and UK govt subsidies.

[Kendhni]

Unrest with the EU had been building for a number of years mainly in those areas of the country which had suffered lack of investment over decades under different governments. Major and Blair both offered referenda and both reneged once they got into power and neither did anything to address the issues. On the contrary they cemented closer relationships with the EU whilst ignoring inequalities.
I have been looking at EU investment in this part of the country. Money has been spent here on minor cosmetic projects which would have no long-lasting benefit to the citizens. Meanwhile the basic infrastructure is archaic - poor road links, aged rail rolling stock, above average unemployment due to lack of job opportunities etc etc. As one local put it "We get nowt cos we've got nowt!" It was a strong Labour stronghold and had never been Tory until the last election......

I think you are pointing your ire in the wrong direction and you should aim it much closer to home.

Ken, I think we all accept your greater knowledge of the N Ireland issues, although living cheek by jowl with an EU country could well be influencing your pro EU sympathies. However when it comes to the neglected regions of the UK, then you really should try and listen and understand the criticisms in an objective manner, rather than apply the subjectivity of living in a country that depends almost totally on the EU and UK govt subsidies.

That is a non sequitur fallacy - you could say exactly the same about living cheek by jowl within the UK is influencing pro brexit sympathies.

Over the last 40 years politicians, British in particular (but includes other countries) have used the EU as a scapegoat for their failings, incompetence and lack of ability. I look at some regions in all areas of the UK that proudly announce EU funded regeneration, while others wallow in (as one old poster put it) "maudlin self pity". So before blaming the EU one should really be asking: Why have the local people not helped regenerate their area? Why have commercial enterprises chosen not to invest in their area? Why has the local representation not regenerated their area? Why has the national government chosen to not spend money in their area?

There are multiple points of failure to go through before you should even consider blaming the EU.

You can see where the UK government chose to spend EU money at https://www.myeu.uk/sign/3e6157c3-85d9- ... 827b80f36c

[towny44]

I think you are pointing your ire in the wrong direction and you should aim it much closer to home.

Ken, I think we all accept your greater knowledge of the N Ireland issues, although living cheek by jowl with an EU country could well be influencing your pro EU sympathies. However when it comes to the neglected regions of the UK, then you really should try and listen and understand the criticisms in an objective manner, rather than apply the subjectivity of living in a country that depends almost totally on the EU and UK govt subsidies.

That is a non sequitur fallacy - you could say exactly the same about living cheek by jowl within the UK is influencing pro brexit sympathies.

Over the last 40 years politicians, British in particular (but includes other countries) have used the EU as a scapegoat for their failings, incompetence and lack of ability. I look at some regions in all areas of the UK that proudly announce EU funded regeneration, while others wallow in (as one old poster put it) "maudlin self pity". So before blaming the EU one should really be asking: Why have the local people not helped regenerate their area? Why have commercial enterprises chosen not to invest in their area? Why has the local representation not regenerated their area? Why has the national government chosen to not spend money in their area?

There are multiple points of failure to go through before you should even consider blaming the EU.

You can see where the UK government chose to spend EU money at https://www.myeu.uk/sign/3e6157c3-85d9- ... 827b80f36c

But Ken that was all our money in the first place, and since we were net contributors to the EU, then we always got back less than we put in.

[Kendhni]

Ken, I think we all accept your greater knowledge of the N Ireland issues, although living cheek by jowl with an EU country could well be influencing your pro EU sympathies. However when it comes to the neglected regions of the UK, then you really should try and listen and understand the criticisms in an objective manner, rather than apply the subjectivity of living in a country that depends almost totally on the EU and UK govt subsidies.

That is a non sequitur fallacy - you could say exactly the same about living cheek by jowl within the UK is influencing pro brexit sympathies.

Over the last 40 years politicians, British in particular (but includes other countries) have used the EU as a scapegoat for their failings, incompetence and lack of ability. I look at some regions in all areas of the UK that proudly announce EU funded regeneration, while others wallow in (as one old poster put it) "maudlin self pity". So before blaming the EU one should really be asking: Why have the local people not helped regenerate their area? Why have commercial enterprises chosen not to invest in their area? Why has the local representation not regenerated their area? Why has the national government chosen to not spend money in their area?

There are multiple points of failure to go through before you should even consider blaming the EU.

You can see where the UK government chose to spend EU money at https://www.myeu.uk/sign/3e6157c3-85d9- ... 827b80f36c

But Ken that was all our money in the first place, and since we were net contributors to the EU, then we always got back less than we put in.

We are all net contributors to many things through taxation, some people get more out of the tax system than others - however we all benefit from the taxation system, not necessarily directly, but as a society as a whole.

You are working on pure pound notes, there was also a verifiable net benefit of the money we contributed to the EU that lies somewhere between 3% and 8% of GDP (I have seen umpteen numbers bandied around and I suppose it depend on who is counting and how it is counted). That basically meant that for every £ we put into the system we got measurable benefits of significantly more back out. A lot of these are hard to measure and some are definitely intangible but overall the statistics show our £8bn per year was well spent and benefited the UK economy (even Farage has conceded this point).

[oldbluefox]

I don't doubt anything that Ken has said. However he epitomises what has been happening in the nation whereby some areas of the land, and some people, have benefited from membership of the EU whereas others have been left to pick up crumbs and have seen their local economies decline, their industries disappear and nothing there to replace them. Commerce and industry have been centralised to those places which have good infrastructure - motorways and dual carriageways, good rail links, efficient internet connections, airports close by but travel around the land, as I have done, and you will find areas which are totally soulless and have literally nothing. So why should these people be subsidising an institution out of which they get no benefit whilst others live in a land of EU milk and honey? It rather smacks of "I'm alright Jack!"
When we cruise I see the state of investment being put in to other EU countries, their roads, their rail links, bridges etc all being sponsored by EU funding and whole swathes of the UK get little or nothing apart from a few cosmetic touches here and there.
I am no lefty by any means but I do understand the level of inequality which exists in this nation and maybe those who have lived so well for the past 40 years whilst neglecting others have only themselves to blame.

[barney]

Nail on the head Foxy.
I’ve said previously that I’d be fine with it all if our contribution was deducted from the foreign aid budget, because that’s what it appears to be.

It was sold as a trade block.
The Common Market.

Massive subsidies to underdeveloped countries is a different game.

The new applicants can have our place.

[Onelife]

I don't doubt anything that Ken has said. However he epitomises what has been happening in the nation whereby some areas of the land, and some people, have benefited from membership of the EU whereas others have been left to pick up crumbs and have seen their local economies decline, their industries disappear and nothing there to replace them. Commerce and industry have been centralised to those places which have good infrastructure - motorways and dual carriageways, good rail links, efficient internet connections, airports close by but travel around the land, as I have done, and you will find areas which are totally soulless and have literally nothing. So why should these people be subsidising an institution out of which they get no benefit whilst others live in a land of EU milk and honey? It rather smacks of "I'm alright Jack!"
When we cruise I see the state of investment being put in to other EU countries, their roads, their rail links, bridges etc all being sponsored by EU funding and whole swathes of the UK get little or nothing apart from a few cosmetic touches here and there.
I am no lefty by any means but I do understand the level of inequality which exists in this nation and maybe those who have lived so well for the past 40 years whilst neglecting others have only themselves to blame.

Without sounding too emotional, therein lies the truth Foxy…you should move to Shropshire, the land of milk and honey and lots of eggs…plus a load of pot holes.

[Kendhni]

I don't doubt anything that Ken has said. However he epitomises what has been happening in the nation whereby some areas of the land, and some people, have benefited from membership of the EU whereas others have been left to pick up crumbs and have seen their local economies decline, their industries disappear and nothing there to replace them. Commerce and industry have been centralised to those places which have good infrastructure - motorways and dual carriageways, good rail links, efficient internet connections, airports close by but travel around the land, as I have done, and you will find areas which are totally soulless and have literally nothing. So why should these people be subsidising an institution out of which they get no benefit whilst others live in a land of EU milk and honey? It rather smacks of "I'm alright Jack!"
When we cruise I see the state of investment being put in to other EU countries, their roads, their rail links, bridges etc all being sponsored by EU funding and whole swathes of the UK get little or nothing apart from a few cosmetic touches here and there.
I am no lefty by any means but I do understand the level of inequality which exists in this nation and maybe those who have lived so well for the past 40 years whilst neglecting others have only themselves to blame.

The bit I don't understand is why do you blame all that on the EU. It is the UK government that decides where the money is to be spent (although the EU may make 'suggestions' due to lobbying from our MEPs or other lobby groups).

You make a good point about other countries, but what we see as tourists is a tiny fraction their country and generally limited to tourist spots and areas they wish you to see. Those countries often choose to pump their portion of EU money into where they believe they will get a maximum return on investment - exactly the same as us. If you look around our own country you will also see large signs and notices saying that projects have been sponsored by the EU, including tourist areas.

What you should be lobbying for is ensuring that the government will keep (at least) the same level of expenditure on the sort of projects that were funded from EU money, after this transition period has ended (and building giant lorry parks over much of Kent does not count). Similarly for other industries, R&D and projects. So far the government has issued only mealy mouthed assurances on this.

[Kendhni]

I don't doubt anything that Ken has said. However he epitomises what has been happening in the nation whereby some areas of the land, and some people, have benefited from membership of the EU whereas others have been left to pick up crumbs and have seen their local economies decline, their industries disappear and nothing there to replace them. Commerce and industry have been centralised to those places which have good infrastructure - motorways and dual carriageways, good rail links, efficient internet connections, airports close by but travel around the land, as I have done, and you will find areas which are totally soulless and have literally nothing. So why should these people be subsidising an institution out of which they get no benefit whilst others live in a land of EU milk and honey? It rather smacks of "I'm alright Jack!"
When we cruise I see the state of investment being put in to other EU countries, their roads, their rail links, bridges etc all being sponsored by EU funding and whole swathes of the UK get little or nothing apart from a few cosmetic touches here and there.
I am no lefty by any means but I do understand the level of inequality which exists in this nation and maybe those who have lived so well for the past 40 years whilst neglecting others have only themselves to blame.

Without sounding too emotional, therein lies the truth Foxy…you should move to Shropshire, the land of milk and honey and lots of eggs…plus a load of pot holes.

Is that not your council's job?

[Onelife]

I don't doubt anything that Ken has said. However he epitomises what has been happening in the nation whereby some areas of the land, and some people, have benefited from membership of the EU whereas others have been left to pick up crumbs and have seen their local economies decline, their industries disappear and nothing there to replace them. Commerce and industry have been centralised to those places which have good infrastructure - motorways and dual carriageways, good rail links, efficient internet connections, airports close by but travel around the land, as I have done, and you will find areas which are totally soulless and have literally nothing. So why should these people be subsidising an institution out of which they get no benefit whilst others live in a land of EU milk and honey? It rather smacks of "I'm alright Jack!"
When we cruise I see the state of investment being put in to other EU countries, their roads, their rail links, bridges etc all being sponsored by EU funding and whole swathes of the UK get little or nothing apart from a few cosmetic touches here and there.
I am no lefty by any means but I do understand the level of inequality which exists in this nation and maybe those who have lived so well for the past 40 years whilst neglecting others have only themselves to blame.

Without sounding too emotional, therein lies the truth Foxy…you should move to Shropshire, the land of milk and honey and lots of eggs…plus a load of pot holes.

Is that not your council's job?

I was referring to Shropshire not London councils…it’s a known fact that the further North you are from London the less you get! that’s why the majority of Londoners voted to remain.

[Manoverboard]

I don't doubt anything that Ken has said. However he epitomises what has been happening in the nation whereby some areas of the land, and some people, have benefited from membership of the EU whereas others have been left to pick up crumbs and have seen their local economies decline, their industries disappear and nothing there to replace them. Commerce and industry have been centralised to those places which have good infrastructure - motorways and dual carriageways, good rail links, efficient internet connections, airports close by but travel around the land, as I have done, and you will find areas which are totally soulless and have literally nothing. So why should these people be subsidising an institution out of which they get no benefit whilst others live in a land of EU milk and honey? It rather smacks of "I'm alright Jack!"
When we cruise I see the state of investment being put in to other EU countries, their roads, their rail links, bridges etc all being sponsored by EU funding and whole swathes of the UK get little or nothing apart from a few cosmetic touches here and there.
I am no lefty by any means but I do understand the level of inequality which exists in this nation and maybe those who have lived so well for the past 40 years whilst neglecting others have only themselves to blame.

Without sounding too emotional, therein lies the truth Foxy…you should move to Shropshire, the land of milk and honey and lots of eggs…plus a load of pot holes.

Dorset is the same ... but we do have lots of unwanted but EU subsidised cycle lanes
.

[Kendhni]

Without sounding too emotional, therein lies the truth Foxy…you should move to Shropshire, the land of milk and honey and lots of eggs…plus a load of pot holes.

Is that not your council's job?

I was referring to Shropshire not London councils…it’s a known fact that the further North you are from London the less you get! that’s why the majority of Londoners voted to remain.

Maybe the londoners had been misinformed about who was responsible for maintaining the UKs highways and mistakenly thought it was the EU.
You need to get your council to stop frittering money away on their bottles of bubbly at the Christmas do and start filling in a few holes.

A couple of streets away from us there was a well known pothole - caused by ramps being added at the school. The local residents complained to the appropriate department for months and nothing was done about it, so when one of the locals was getting his driveway done he asked the guys to throw a bucket or two in the hole. They did (actually did a great job). When the appropriate government department was informed they had a maintenance crew out within 2 days to dig it out and fill it back in. :CONFUSED:

[Frank Manning]

With regard to the issue of fishing. The point is less about what the current value of our fishing industry is to the UK, and more about the value of it if EU trawlers are banned from our waters. There is still going to be a fairly significant market for fish in the EU and else where. If it is totally caught by British ships and exported, as already happens to an extent, it gives us total control over an export industry. It must be significant for the EU to be making so much fuss about it. I believe that if we hold firm on our waters, our fish, and our boats, it might focus their minds on the fact that we are really leaving.

A few years ago I became friends with a local fisherman with a small boat. I did him a painting of his trawler simply because I liked him and our friendship developed from there. He despairs that our government will realise the value of what they could have, and will sign it away for something insignificant in the heat of negotiations. I agree. As you all know I was a staunch remainer, but since we have had the vote, and are governed by a party determined to see it through we should be trying to forget the past, and concentrating on getting a good deal.

[Onelife]

With regard to the issue of fishing. The point is less about what the current value of our fishing industry is to the UK, and more about the value of it if EU trawlers are banned from our waters. There is still going to be a fairly significant market for fish in the EU and else where. If it is totally caught by British ships and exported, as already happens to an extent, it gives us total control over an export industry. It must be significant for the EU to be making so much fuss about it. I believe that if we hold firm on our waters, our fish, and our boats, it might focus their minds on the fact that we are really leaving.

A few years ago I became friends with a local fisherman with a small boat. I did him a painting of his trawler simply because I liked him and our friendship developed from there. He despairs that our government will realise the value of what they could have, and will sign it away for something insignificant in the heat of negotiations. I agree. As you all know I was a staunch remainer, but since we have had the vote, and are governed by a party determined to see it through we should be trying to forget the past, and concentrating on getting a good deal.

Well said Frank I couldn’t have said it better

Btw…I like you and I think we could become real good friends…I’m sending you a photo of our house which would look great in water colour…thanks in anticipation mate

[barney]

From today’s Guardian
Thousands of U.K. citizens living in the Eu will have their British bank accounts closed because the Eu will not recognise them in Europe.
Lloyds, Barclays and others have had to write to account holders telling them that the accounts will have to be closed.
It doesn’t affect Eu citizens in the U.K. as we have unilaterally recognised theirs.
So, for all the chat of citizens rights, the Eu clearly don’t give a monkeys.
They have however allowed euros to be continued to be cleared in London which is still 90% of transactions
Hypocrisy of the highest order.