Life After Brexit

[Kendhni]

As you all know I was a staunch remainer, but since we have had the vote, and are governed by a party determined to see it through we should be trying to forget the past, and concentrating on getting a good deal.

It would not be prudent to forget all the past because that is when brexiteers made their promises - they must not be allowed to rewrite history and air-brush over those promises. While we now have to accept we have left I still expect brexiteers to deliver on the promises they made to the British people. That was to deliver a deal ... brexiteers decided what that deal was and they put it to the people who accepted it.

At some point brexiteers have to stop moving the goal posts and blaming everyone else, accept responsibility and deliver what they promised this country.

[oldbluefox]

The promise which was important to me and which I voted on in 2016 was to leave the EU. It was as simple as that and Boris has/is delivering. The preferable option is to leave with a dal, which seems to me the most sensible outcome for both sides b ut if not then we leave on WTO rules and we move on.

[towny44]

As you all know I was a staunch remainer, but since we have had the vote, and are governed by a party determined to see it through we should be trying to forget the past, and concentrating on getting a good deal.

It would not be prudent to forget all the past because that is when brexiteers made their promises - they must not be allowed to rewrite history and air-brush over those promises. While we now have to accept we have left I still expect brexiteers to deliver on the promises they made to the British people. That was to deliver a deal ... brexiteers decided what that deal was and they put it to the people who accepted it.

At some point brexiteers have to stop moving the goal posts and blaming everyone else, accept responsibility and deliver what they promised this country.

Ken, get real, time moves on circumstances change, new problems arise and new opportunities are studied, trying to hold the govt to account for so called promises made on something you totally oppose just because you want to embarrass the govt.

personal content edited out
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[Kendhni]

As you all know I was a staunch remainer, but since we have had the vote, and are governed by a party determined to see it through we should be trying to forget the past, and concentrating on getting a good deal.

It would not be prudent to forget all the past because that is when brexiteers made their promises - they must not be allowed to rewrite history and air-brush over those promises. While we now have to accept we have left I still expect brexiteers to deliver on the promises they made to the British people. That was to deliver a deal ... brexiteers decided what that deal was and they put it to the people who accepted it.

At some point brexiteers have to stop moving the goal posts and blaming everyone else, accept responsibility and deliver what they promised this country.

Ken, get real, time moves on circumstances change, new problems arise and new opportunities are studied, trying to hold the govt to account for so called promises made on something you totally oppose just because you want to embarrass the govt ...... Content edited as per original posting

Content edited ....

All you demonstrate is that when you get your way then you are willing to accept very low standards and integrity from your representatives.
In this instance nothing has really changed, at the general election Johnson assured us he had delivered a 'great' 'oven ready' deal (the May/Johnson WA), the public voted and accepted it as the way forward. The deal is exactly the same, the fact that Johnson is now furiously back pedalling trying to rewrite it because he is either a liar or crassly incompetent means it should go back to the public.

The governments incompetence and lack of integrity is what is embarrassing and those accepting of low standards need to stop crying when it is pointed out.

[barney]

I’m not so sure that things have changed that much John.
The U.K. said from the offset that we would like a simple free trade agreement and the Eu side, ably assisted by a legion of U.K. based anti democrats have done everything to make that as difficult as possible.
It’s still going on.
The U.K. have made many compromises including Eu citizens rights while the Eu have not reciprocated.
The banks is just the latest issue.
I don’t think anyone can argue that the Eu side are in breach of the WA by not negotiating in good faith.

[towny44]

It would not be prudent to forget all the past because that is when brexiteers made their promises - they must not be allowed to rewrite history and air-brush over those promises. While we now have to accept we have left I still expect brexiteers to deliver on the promises they made to the British people. That was to deliver a deal ... brexiteers decided what that deal was and they put it to the people who accepted it.

At some point brexiteers have to stop moving the goal posts and blaming everyone else, accept responsibility and deliver what they promised this country.

Ken, get real, time moves on circumstances change, new problems arise and new opportunities are studied, trying to hold the govt to account for so called promises made on something you totally oppose just because you want to embarrass the govt.

.... All you demonstrate is that when you get your way then you are willing to accept very low standards and integrity from your representatives.
In this instance nothing has really changed, at the general election Johnson assured us he had delivered a 'great' 'oven ready' deal (the May/Johnson WA), the public voted and accepted it as the way forward. The deal is exactly the same, the fact that Johnson is now furiously back pedalling trying to rewrite it because he is either a liar or crassly incompetent means it should go back to the public.

The governments incompetence and lack of integrity is what is embarrassing and those accepting of low standards need to stop crying when it is pointed out.

Ken, I think the Covid crisis trumps the issues you raise, although the govts promised spending on the NHS in Rishi's autumn budget went a long way to fulfilling the promises they made about diverting EU contributions to increased spending on the NHS, and much more has been spent on Covid since then. If you are unable to comprehend this then I believe that blinkered thinking is more your problem than mine.

[Manoverboard]

Ken, I think the Covid crisis trumps the issues you raise, although the govts promised spending on the NHS in Rishi's autumn budget went a long way to fulfilling the promises they made about diverting EU contributions to increased spending on the NHS, and much more has been spent on Covid since then. If you are unable to comprehend this then I believe that blinkered thinking is more your problem than mine.

I do appreciate that some responses take time to do and that copies may not always be taken. If the personal comment continues I will remove the entire post rather than making selective deletions.

Regards
MobyModPlod

[Onelife]

If the UK goal posts were planted in the same holes as that of how other countries goal posts are planted and treated, instead of them being moved by the EU to suit the game they want to play we could have settled on a score draw......but no, they want to dish out penalties in order that others won't follow us into what l hope will be a better league.

Well they think it's all over....well it will be.... if they don't start playing ball.

[Kendhni]

Ken, get real, time moves on circumstances change, new problems arise and new opportunities are studied, trying to hold the govt to account for so called promises made on something you totally oppose just because you want to embarrass the govt.

.... All you demonstrate is that when you get your way then you are willing to accept very low standards and integrity from your representatives.
In this instance nothing has really changed, at the general election Johnson assured us he had delivered a 'great' 'oven ready' deal (the May/Johnson WA), the public voted and accepted it as the way forward. The deal is exactly the same, the fact that Johnson is now furiously back pedalling trying to rewrite it because he is either a liar or crassly incompetent means it should go back to the public.

The governments incompetence and lack of integrity is what is embarrassing and those accepting of low standards need to stop crying when it is pointed out.

Ken, I think the Covid crisis trumps the issues you raise, although the govts promised spending on the NHS in Rishi's autumn budget went a long way to fulfilling the promises they made about diverting EU contributions to increased spending on the NHS, and much more has been spent on Covid since then. If you are unable to comprehend this then I believe that blinkered thinking is more your problem than mine.

I think I said something very similar many posts ago (the impact of COVID). COVID has changed the world, but not the WA (especially the bits that Johnson is trying to tinker with). Brexiteers should not be allowed to cower behind blaming COVID on everything.

One thing though ... additional NHS spending that has been made as a direct consequence of COVID does not count as meeting Johnsons's promise of an extra £350million per week - since that money has come directly from additional borrowing, not through any 'savings' or make believe 'diversions'. Brexit has cost and will continue to cost this country far more than being a member of the EU did (that point has already been conceded by the brexit leadership) ... we just have to hope all those trade deals, blue passports and sovereignty will more than make up that difference.

[Kendhni]

If the UK goal posts were planted in the same holes as that of how other countries goal posts are planted and treated, instead of them being moved by the EU to suit the game they want to play we could have settled on a score draw......but no, they want to dish out penalties in order that others won't follow us into what l hope will be a better league.

Well they think it's all over....well it will be.... if they don't start playing ball.

The EU has not changed its position apart from minor concessions to the UK. Prior to the referendum the EU laid out exactly what it would take, if the UK wishes to leave the EU then they must actually leave ALL the institutions. The UK chose to cover over this claiming it was just project fear because they thought they could 'have their cake and eat it' because they 'held all the cards', but as the EU said ... out means out ... (yes it was a demand from the EU before it became the bleating of brexiteers).

Every nation has a choice to weigh up the pros and cons and either stay or go - nobody is stopping them. All that is asked is that you wish to leave you actually do leave and settle your bill on the way out (this step is completed for the UK, signed, sealed and delivered as the WA). Now what is happening is that the UK is determining what the future relationship will be and how much that might cost (both monetarily and sharing of sovereignty - based on the various deals that the brexit leadership flipped and flopped over).

[Onelife]

If the UK goal posts were planted in the same holes as that of how other countries goal posts are planted and treated, instead of them being moved by the EU to suit the game they want to play we could have settled on a score draw......but no, they want to dish out penalties in order that others won't follow us into what l hope will be a better league.

Well they think it's all over....well it will be.... if they don't start playing ball.

The EU has not changed its position apart from minor concessions to the UK. Prior to the referendum the EU laid out exactly what it would take, if the UK wishes to leave the EU then they must actually leave ALL the institutions. The UK chose to cover over this claiming it was just project fear because they thought they could 'have their cake and eat it' because they 'held all the cards', but as the EU said ... out means out ... (yes it was a demand from the EU before it became the bleating of brexiteers).

Every nation has a choice to weigh up the pros and cons and either stay or go - nobody is stopping them. All that is asked is that you wish to leave you actually do leave and settle your bill on the way out (this step is completed for the UK, signed, sealed and delivered as the WA). Now what is happening is that the UK is determining what the future relationship will be and how much that might cost (both monetarily and sharing of sovereignty - based on the various deals that the brexit leadership flipped and flopped over).

We didn't want to eat the whole cake but we want it to be sliced fairly whereby trade deals are mutually bennifical to both sides. What the EU are sh*ting themselves about is that we will have an edge once we leave the confines of what is essential a union of three powerful countries.

If we are forced to go down the WTO route then we are all losers....One way or another it ain't going to happen imo.

At the end of the day business has no friends just compromises.

[barney]

So, just for clarification, one moment the U.K. is a sh*tpot island on the periphery of Europe that could not possibly stand on it’s own two feet like any normal country.
The next moment it’s a major competitor to Europe that cannot be allowed to have a basic trade agreement.
The very simple and undeniable fact is that the majority voted to leave the eu.
The government of the day, and the following one didn’t want to carry out the instructions of the electorate.
This one is doing just that.
The European Union simply has to accept that things have changed and they are no longer in the driving seat or it’s WTO terms which will suit us much more than them.
I’d be willing to wager that a basic trade deal would be done pretty quickly afterwards when sales of products plummet.
The U.K. is a major market for the Eu.

[oldbluefox]

I'll put my money on a last minute trade deal.

[Kendhni]

I'll put my money on a last minute trade deal.

That's where my money is ... and I can guarantee you that headlines will be
- the Guardian 'Britain cedes to EU demands'
- the Daily Mail 'EU forced into humiliating climb down, Rule britannia'
- the Daily Star '23 breasts in this issue'

[oldbluefox]

You're more than likely correct

[Kendhni]

We didn't want to eat the whole cake but we want it to be sliced fairly whereby trade deals are mutually bennifical to both sides.

I believe everybody is working towards that, but we are not equals. The UK is a fraction of the size of the EU, it may currently be punching above its weight, but that does not mean it can last the full bout.

What the EU are sh*ting themselves about is that we will have an edge once we leave the confines of what is essential a union of three powerful countries.

I see no evidence of that, they naturally have their concerns but the EU pulls a lot of international clout, and are seen to have been the side acting in good faith throughout these discussions. The UK may get trade deals equal to those that they would have had under the EU, but whether or not they can get anything better (beyond maybe some minor UK specific interests) has yet to be seen.

If we are forced to go down the WTO route then we are all losers....One way or another it ain't going to happen imo.

I always loved this quote by the brexit leadership
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

At the end of the day business has no friends just compromises.

Definitely not a friend in Johnson anyway, as Johnson said, when asked about concerns that business had in relation a hard brexit, 'f*** business'.

[Manoverboard]

I'll put my money on a last minute trade deal.

So as not to be accused of using hindsight I would mention my long standing prediction of an eleventh hour agreement.

[Manoverboard]

I always loved this quote by the brexit leadership
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

I think we could survive reasonably well but Northern Ireland would be too big a drain on the overall resources so would have to become part of a greater Ireland and thereafter to trade within the EU.

Is that a ' Loada-cobbras ' or a distinct possibility, do you think Ken ?

[Kendhni]

I always loved this quote by the brexit leadership
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

I think we could survive reasonably well but Northern Ireland would be too big a drain on the overall resources so would have to become part of a greater Ireland and thereafter to trade within the EU.

Is that a ' Loada-cobbras ' or a distinct possibility, do you think Ken ?

We can start with one of the promises made by the brexit leadership that said they would "maintain the integrity of the United Kingdom". So let us work on the assumption the question is purely hypothetical.

I have no evidence one way or the other. However a couple of things come to mind. The UK can't simply dump part of itself, that region has to want to go, that could be very expensive for the UK. Even if Northern Ireland left I would expect that the UK would be responsible for many infrastructure projects and huge pension and other liabilities, so it would be likely on some sort of partnership whereby the UK would continue to provide part of the financing (quite possibly the lions share). Finally if the UK tried to bully NI into any position it is likely that America would step in and bully the UK back into line.

The UK also has to remember that there is a strong likelihood that they could lose Scotland and (to a lesser degree) Wales (this is made more difficult because the UK parliament retains sovereignty over the regions), but assuming they did go then, with so many other nearshore/offshore independent countries vying for international attention and investment then England could very quickly end up as 'the poor man of Europe' once again. The question then would become whether or not the EU would even want it back?.

But that is all hypothetical.

[barney]

I think that the United Kingdom has run it’s course.
All things come to an end.
If any, and I mean any of the member countries wish to plough their own furrow, then I not only support that but applaud it.
In this modern world, democracy must reign.
If the majority in NI wish to be one with Ireland, then good for them.
The same with Scotland and Wales.
If they would prefer to be independent from England, then let democracy rule.

When Scotland has its next referendum, I’d be ok with Westminster not even campaigning for the union.
Simply explain what it would actually mean and let them get on with it.

Just because things have always been a certain way doesn’t necessarily mean that it should continue as such.
If the majority want change, then this should be honoured in my opinion.

[johnds]

That's where my money is ... and I can guarantee you that headlines will be
- the Guardian 'Britain cedes to EU demands'
- the Daily Mail 'EU forced into humiliating climb down, Rule britannia'
- the Daily Star '23 breasts in this issue'

Ken

Have you not noticed the changes in the Daily Mail under its new editorship

Now much more anti-government than pro

I'll bow to your greater knowledge of the content of the Daily Star

[barney]

I’ve just been watching a bit of Euronews and some German minister seemed to be under the impression that the U.K. is trying to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement.
Where did he get that idea from and who is peddling untruths in the Eu?

[towny44]

I always loved this quote by the brexit leadership
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

Which one of the Brexit govt ministers said that Ken, and when, and in what context?

[Kendhni]

That's where my money is ... and I can guarantee you that headlines will be
- the Guardian 'Britain cedes to EU demands'
- the Daily Mail 'EU forced into humiliating climb down, Rule britannia'
- the Daily Star '23 breasts in this issue'

Ken

Have you not noticed the changes in the Daily Mail under its new editorship

Now much more anti-government than pro

Its editorial doesn't seem to have changed that much though - still using the same old marketing ploy (that has worked very well for it)

I'll bow to your greater knowledge of the content of the Daily Star

I can come up with 23 points as to why you should

[Kendhni]

I always loved this quote by the brexit leadership
"One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

Which one of the Brexit govt ministers said that Ken, and when, and in what context?

That I will have to dig out, It wasn't a government minister it was one of the leave groups that wrote that piece (Leave Alliance???). Remind me later and I will dig it out, it is the summary from an interesting piece about leaving under WTO terms..