Woolwich Attack

[Silver_Shiney]

Yet the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill'

No it doesn't.

I thought it was one of the Commandments ?

A common misconception - the word is raw-tsakh = murder. "You will not murder". There's a difference.

[ChesterfieldJohn]

Yet the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill'

No it doesn't.

I thought it was one of the Commandments ?

A common misconception - the word is raw-tsakh = murder. "You will not murder". There's a difference.

Bloody hell all my strict religious upbringing based on lies!!!

[Mo2013]

I'm not sure that people realise that at least one of these killers is of Nigerian descent but BRITISH born, to devout Christian parents.

It is a shocking horrible thing that has happened and I hope that Muslim leaders will band together to rout out the teachers of hate and deal with them as they see fit because they bringing shame and disgrace upon the Islam faith. Rightly or wrongly, Britain has involved itself in things and therefore this country and its servicemen have become a target. Islam is a religion of peace but British soldiers have killed Muslims and in their minds some Muslims will consider themselves at war, and Jihad (holy war) justifies them in killing 'the infidel'. Just as the Bible states 'an eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth, they have taken that as read. How do you deal with this extremism? On this thread people have expressed hatred and a wish for the men to be tortured by being used as human bomb detectors. How brutal, savage and inhuman are those thoughts from civilised, well adjusted people? Food for thought.

I'm not sure what difference you think being Nigerian makes or that this "killer" has devout Christian parents, no-one is questioning the credibility of his parents.

If anyone has seen tonights news where the family of the poor murdered ( yes MURDERED ) soldier bravely faced the camera's the only people who deserve to be descibed as brutal, savage and inhuman are the MURDERERS !!!

To clarify, because you are splitting hairs, him being Nigerian is not relevant. However, since you have missed it, I will tell you that an earlier poster said they should be sent back to their own country - or words to that effect. I pointed out that at least one of them is BRITISH born and added the extra information that he was of Nigerian born to devout Christian parents.

[Mo2013]

Yet the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill'

No it doesn't.

I thought it was one of the Commandments ?

A common misconception - the word is raw-tsakh = murder. "You will not murder". There's a difference.

I think you will find that there are several versions - one of which is 'thou shalt not kill'. In any case the meaning is the same in my book and IMO it is splitting hairs to argue the toss about the form of words.

[Serendipity]

This decent human being was murdered in broad daylight in a barbaric way, his family will suffer for the rest of their lives.

The evil monsters who did it deserve to rot in hell.

[AngieT]

The question I ask is this - if this country had not got involved with the USA in sending troops to Iraq & Afghanistan, thereby preventing Muslim terrorists of using this excuse to murder in this country, would we have a terrorism problem here now? My understanding of fanatical Jihadists (and I apologise if I have interpreted it wrongly) is that they believe that Islam is the only true religion & that it should be spread throughout the world converting everyone to the Muslim faith & making them live under Muslim (Sharia) law. I therefore believe that they would find another 'excuse' to gain control of this & other countries to attain their wish - after all, isn't this what has happened in Africa such as in Nigeria & Mali?

[Mo2013]

The question I ask is this - if this country had not got involved with the USA in sending troops to Iraq & Afghanistan, thereby preventing Muslim terrorists of using this excuse to murder in this country, would we have a terrorism problem here now? My understanding of fanatical Jihadists (and I apologise if I have interpreted it wrongly) is that they believe that Islam is the only true religion & that it should be spread throughout the world converting everyone to the Muslim faith & making them live under Muslim (Sharia) law. I therefore believe that they would find another 'excuse' to gain control of this & other countries to attain their wish - after all, isn't this what has happened in Africa such as in Nigeria & Mali?

You are absolutely right in your assessment of Islam. Islam wants to rule the world. However, there is no indication of any actions Muslims are taking to convert us to their faith. There are other faiths too, who want to evangelise and draw more people into their faith, who even come knocking at one's door. The terrorist murderers believe they are fighting a war - a war they see as being waged on Islam and their faith dictates that in war they have a God-given right to pursue the defence of that faith by stoning, beheading, etc. What is the world to do? Outlaw religion? Ban the Islam faith as a danger to the rest of mankind?

[Silver_Shiney]

I think you will find that there are several versions - one of which is 'thou shalt not kill'. In any case the meaning is the same in my book and IMO it is splitting hairs to argue the toss about the form of words.

There are several transliterations that say "kill". I think YOU will find that "murder" is the correct use of the word and I know of no court of law that considers the difference to be "splitting hairs".

Incidentally, most people in the church stopped using "thee" and "thou" years ago. That was the vernacular of the time when the KJV was transliterated. The original texts were written in the vernacular of the day.

[AngieT]

You are absolutely right in your assessment of Islam. Islam wants to rule the world. However, there is no indication of any actions Muslims are taking to convert us to their faith. There are other faiths too, who want to evangelise and draw more people into their faith, who even come knocking at one's door. quote]

But I believe there are indications that Muslims are taking actions to convert us to their faith Mo. They may not be knocking on doors or having meetings with us to tell us about Islam but they are building more mosques in areas like mine that far outweigh the amount of Muslims that live in the area. Muslims in our city have asked the council for permission to open new mosques in the middle of two areas that contain 95% white Christian & Jewish residents (there are already several mosques in the city). The council are aware that in this city there are more mosques per 1000 Muslim residents than there are other places of worship for the other residents (Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu etc) yet they have granted permission. Why would Muslims want to open mosques in areas they don't live other than to impose their religion on the local population?

[Mo2013]

Angie, what you talk could indeed be a cause for concern. I am at a loss to understand why a Council would grant permission for another building given what you say except that it is to serve the 5% of Muslims in that locality. I presume it's all about this being a free country and there are no reasons why they shouldn't build other Mosques. I still have to see evidence of non-Muslims being dragged kicking and screaming to a Mosque to be converted to Islam. I have concerns that although people may not think they are being racist or bigoted in their opinions, the fact is that this country has welcomed and embraced people of all races, creeds and religions, people some would say 'ship these people back to where they came from'. It doesn't sound nice does it?

[Mo2013]

I think you will find that there are several versions - one of which is 'thou shalt not kill'. In any case the meaning is the same in my book and IMO it is splitting hairs to argue the toss about the form of words.

There are several transliterations that say "kill". I think YOU will find that "murder" is the correct use of the word and I know of no court of law that considers the difference to be "splitting hairs".

Incidentally, most people in the church stopped using "thee" and "thou" years ago. That was the vernacular of the time when the KJV was transliterated. The original texts were written in the vernacular of the day.

IMO you are splitting hairs and I do not propose to argue a moot point. The taking of a life is wrong and against one of God's commandments however it is worded in whatever translation. I am going to leave it there.

[Silver_Shiney]

I still have to see evidence of non-Muslims being dragged kicking and screaming to a Mosque to be converted to Islam.[/quote]

It doesn't happen in this country - yet. It does in others.

I have concerns that although people may not think they are being racist or bigoted in their opinions, the fact is that this country has welcomed and embraced people of all races, creeds and religions, people some would say 'ship these people back to where they came from'. It doesn't sound nice does it?

The immigrants who people say should be sent back are those who refuse to adapt to the British way of life and, instead, set up their own little enclaves.

[Silver_Shiney]

IMO you are splitting hairs and I do not propose to argue a moot point. The taking of a life is wrong and against one of God's commandments however it is worded in whatever translation. I am going to leave it there.

The taking of life IS wrong, you've got that right. If you murder someone, then you should forfeit your own life. Nothing moot about it.

[Andrea S]

In the past British people have accepted all nationalities and with it their religious beliefs.
Sadly it is some of these people that are becoming obsessed with thinking that they can change the world.

To a Muslim there us only one faith but it is only the radical brain washed ones that class others as evil infidels and inflict pain and suffering on innocent people.

They certainly don't drag people into a mosque to convert them but they are beginning to get into local councils or parliament where they can sway local decisions which will affect everyone.

I don't know where Angela lives but it is getting like that in most cities. Buildings are being put up to enable people to worship how they wish.

We used to call it freedom.

[Silver_Shiney]

Buildings are being put up to enable people to worship how they wish.

Are there?

I cannot speak for other parts of the country, but where I am, I know of two churches who wanted bigger premises, (because, contrary to the press reports, the church is growing) and they could only get planning permission if they confirmed that "worship" would only be a subsidiary activity in the building - it had to be mainly for "use for the benefit of the community".

I think we're in danger of getting this particular thread off-topic.

[Silver_Shiney]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664835

This is very wrong. Retaliation and recrimination of any sort is just as bad as the murder and cannot be justified. More so since many Islamic people have condemned, and distanced themselves, from the attack.

[AngieT]

In the past British people have accepted all nationalities and with it their religious beliefs.
Sadly it is some of these people that are becoming obsessed with thinking that they can change the world.

To a Muslim there us only one faith but it is only the radical brain washed ones that class others as evil infidels and inflict pain and suffering on innocent people.

They certainly don't drag people into a mosque to convert them but they are beginning to get into local councils or parliament where they can sway local decisions which will affect everyone.

I don't know where Angela lives but it is getting like that in most cities. Buildings are being put up to enable people to worship how they wish.

We used to call it freedom.

I live in the suburb of Leeds that two of the 7/7 bombers came from. For years I was ashamed to tell people where I lived - how sad is that? I was ashamed because I was born & brought up in that suburb, as were generations of my paternal line for the last 200 years & more. Generations that were born, lived, worked & died in the same 3 square miles. Suddenly the houses where my school friends used to live were now found to be the homes of terrorists.
I also worked in the area as a Police offficer until I retired a few years ago. It's hard to be a politically correct & unbiased Police officer when you work & live amongst those who are trying to kill you but I bit my tongue & for 30 years tried to accept that we all had to get on with each other as best we could.
This city has seen hundreds of years of immigrants settling here, Jews in the late 1800s, Polish & Ukranians during & after WW2, Afro Caribbeans & Indians (Sikhs & Hindus) in the 1960s onwards, Muslims and now we have Eastern Europeans & North Africans settling here. All have & still are integrating well into the population of this city except for those amongst the Muslim community who want to take over (as with the mosque question) and in some circumstances kill (7/7) the communities they live amongst.
I won't move from here because all my family live here & they can't afford to move - and why should we? But now my nephew will think twice about coming home on leave from the Army - his family home is in the same street as the new mosque that is being proposed to be built - will he feel safe after what has happened in Woolwich? I abhor the retaliation & recrimination carried out by some after this incident but I am now so sad & depressed as I look around my community & I feel angry that I have been made to feel this way.

[HK phooey]

Angie, I would love to see your words on billboards throughout our nation and in neon flashing lights outside Number 10.

[Silver_Shiney]

Angie, I would love to see your words on billboards throughout our nation and in neon flashing lights outside Number 10.

I think you should actually send it to No 10 and your local MP, as well as every national newspaper.

[Mr-big-bits-mk2]

Our mosque here in Yeovil made the BNP web site. The council planning application for it didn't appear on the counils planning web site and the notices (the ones you see pinned up outside the property seeking the application) was put up outside a nearby church with no mention of the word mosque or any other real clues as to what was being asked for.

Alam, unfortunatly your average man on the street doesn't give most things a great deal of thought. The other side of the problem is that Islam appears in the news far too often and for the sorst of reasons. Gloably it will be every day be it Syria, etc of localy here in the UK. The constsnt reports of muslim child groomers, honor killings, 7/7 etc all have one thing in common in the eyes of the public, Islam.

Whilst a simplistic response as most muslims are not an issue the public will after a while start to conclude that there is a problem with if not a threat from Islam.

[Kendhni]

Very interesting to read AngieT's comments.

All this reminds me of a scene in a recent episode of 'Bones' when they were trying to solve a murder and discussing 9/11. One of the interns suggested another intern was upset because he was moslem. I can't remember if this was the entire speech but it is as much as I could find on the web ..

“This was not the work of religion. It was arrogance. It was hypocrisy. It was hate. Those horrible men who hijacked those planes hijacked my religion that day, too. They insulted my God. So no, this isn’t too difficult. It’s a privilege to be able to serve this victim, to show him the care and love that was so absent that day,”

[Kendhni]

I read that an incident has occurred in France that some are thinking may have been influenced by Woolwich.

[AngieT]

Angie, I would love to see your words on billboards throughout our nation and in neon flashing lights outside Number 10.

I think you should actually send it to No 10 and your local MP, as well as every national newspaper.

Thank you for your suggestions - I have never considered writing to my MP etc to voice my feelings but after voicing them on this forum & from your reaction to them I will definately be putting pen to paper to my MP Hilary Benn & to David Cameron. After reading these comments to my husband he mentioned how he was particularly upset by an incident that happened to us a few weeks after the 7/7 bombings. We were very priviledged to get an invitation to one of the Queen's garden parties at Buckingham Palace & whilst there we got talking to a lovely elderly Asian gentleman & his wife. He told us he was a doctor from the South of England & he asked where we were from. My husband, without thinking, told him the suburb & city where we lived. The gentleman looked visibly shocked & took a step back & then apologised for his reaction & said he felt sorry for us & then tried to explain that not all Asians shared the beliefs of the bombers. That short exchange of conversation upset for all of us what should have been a memorable day and has imprinted itself on our lives.

Angie

[Mo2013]

Just glimpsed a newspaper headline 'Cameron to gag hate clerics' which is a step in the right direction. Someone I know worked in a high street retailer. During sale time the changing rooms were not open because of logistics. It transpired that some Muslims were put out that they could not use the changing room to pray and were going to sue the retailer. They received £100 in gift vouchers. What do you think of that? Do you think that people should come into this country and be afforded what they need in their lives, such as a dedicated prayer room in hospitals and females insisting on only being seen by a female medic and be able to face Mecca because of their strict rules? We are a free country and we have allowed all comers to reside here, but have we got it wrong because we have allowed immigrants freedom to live their lives as they wish? If we didn't, then wouldn't Britain be a dictatorship ?

[HK phooey]

Britain has been far too tolerant for far too long. Any muslim who preaches hatred and/or violence towards 'the infidel' should be firstly detained and then deported to a muslim country. We need to stop building mosques and get rid of the ridiculous Human Rights laws that prevent us from kicking these people out. It is only ever the muslims jumping up and down about what they think they should be given. Enough.