EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[towny44]

The European Commission cannot impose any ruling on any country that doesn't want it to.
We are not part of Schengen and never have been and never will be. I don't know where this misunderstanding could have arisen.

Bob, What happens if an EU country grants asylum/citizenship to an immigrant and he pops over to the UK with his new passport, can we refuse him entry or are we unable to because of the free movement of EU nationals, Schengen or no Schengen?

[Quizzical Bob]

QB, you are definitely losing the plot, and on here probably the argument, whilst the Brexit supporters on the forum have disagreed with your arguments and reasons for remaining in the EU, we have not tried to smear you in any way.
On trade and the economy I accept that negotiating a separate agreement might be difficult, but I have tried to use genuine trade figures to persuade you that as the major export market for EU goods in the ROW we are in a totally different league to Norway and Switzerland, and anti British xenophobia from some EU countries is never going to trump loss of these exports.
This negotiating position should also enable the UK govt. to ensure we are no longer tied to the free movement of labour or to have the European courts interfere in UK rulings.
I accept I might be over estimating our strengths, but I feel we have to try to make a stand against the creep of EU federalism for the sake of future generations. This is likely to be a once in a lifetime opportunity and we should be brave enough to risk possible short term problems for what I truly believe will be to our long term benefit.

Towny, I have not set out to deliberately smear anybody but it is quite clear from what I have read on here that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the way that the EU works. The free movement of labour is a cornerstone of the Single Market and we will not have access without it. I am not sure which judgments of the European Courts concern you, I'm quite sure that you are not confusing the ECJ withn the ECHR?

As for the trade position, we are in a very weak situation. The EU does not have to buy from us. We need to buy from them.

If you want to stop creeping federalism then all that we have to do is stay in the EU and say no. That is our right.

[Quizzical Bob]

Bob, What happens if an EU country grants asylum/citizenship to an immigrant and he pops over to the UK with his new passport, can we refuse him entry or are we unable to because of the free movement of EU nationals, Schengen or no Schengen?

In principle any EU citizen has the right to live and work in any member state but there are limitations to this. The Schengen arrangement itself is under urgent review in the light of the changed circustances. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13194723

Regarding this whole immigration business it is worth remembering that there are well over 100 million people movements a year in and out of Britain and what we end up with is a net difference of a couple of hundred thousand a year. Many of these are short-term visas, students, businessmen, tourists. We haven't kept track of individuals since the early 1960s. I think it's probably too late now.

[oldbluefox]

Several million have come to Britain since the doors were opened (not that they were ever shut). So much for sovereignty and control of our own governments.[/color]

If I remember correctly it was Blair who opened the floodgates to immigrants from outside the EU in order to make us a much more diverse and multi-cultural country sometime in the 90's, and also to 'rub the Tory noses in it'. This was never in the Labour party manifesto but was a personal crusade on his behalf.
When Poland joined the EU, despite many countries limiting the number of Poles entering the country he allowed open access, supposedly (!!!!) believing (Lol!!!) only 13,000 would wish to come. I think the total was closer to 130,000. We have never properly recovered control since those days.
I am all for immigration to cover those areas where we lack skills and expertise. However whilst we struggle with lack of housing, an overrun NHS, a bloated benefit system, shortage of school places etc not to mention poor infrastructure and over populated land mass compared to the rest of Europe we are not in a good position to continue taking in migrants as we are at present.
This has nothing to do with xenophobia, Little Englander syndrome, bigotry or, dare I say it, racism in any way - terms which have all been used by the Remain party.

[Silver_Shiney]

Sorry, Shiney, the quote from Merv was included for free when I pressed the button. I certainly wouldn't use his name in vain.

but you could easily have tweaked it to remove his reference...

Germany can't and doesn't dictate terms to us. It has a veto just like us so whereas it can tell us what we can't do regards the EU it cannot tell us what we must do.

Merely picking up on your comment singling out Germany. I am aware that it's the rest of the European Commission as a whole that imposes these rulings on us, not one single country. I am also aware that many non-Europeans come here. A large number come from Africa and the middle East. Were you aware that they come initially to Europe and then, because of the Schengen agreement, a great many come straight here because they've heard that we're a soft touch? If they left their homeland to come straight here, without taking advantage of the Schengen nonsense, I wonder how many would succeed in gaining entry?

Sorry, cutting and pasting is not so easy on my iPad application.

The European Commission cannot impose any ruling on any country that doesn't want it to.
We are not part of Schengen and never have been and never will be. I don't know where this misunderstanding could have arisen.

I didn't say we were part of Schengen. I made it very clear that these people use the Schengen to their advantage to cross Europe to get here. It's easier to hop over the channel illegally than it is to gain entry directly from their home country.

[towny44]

Towny, I have not set out to deliberately smear anybody but it is quite clear from what I have read on here that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the way that the EU works. The free movement of labour is a cornerstone of the Single Market and we will not have access without it. I am not sure which judgments of the European Courts concern you, I'm quite sure that you are not confusing the ECJ withn the ECHR?

As for the trade position, we are in a very weak situation.The EU does not have to buy from us. We need to buy from them.
If you want to stop creeping federalism then all that we have to do is stay in the EU and say no. That is our right.

Bob, I really am struggling to understand your logic, I am not really concerned about the current imbalance of trade in the EU's favour, but I am fairly certain they are extremely concerned about having tariffs applied to goods they sell to their major customer which could hit their sales.
Equally I do not understand why you imply that we need to buy from them, which products would these be? Currently we buy a lot of our food from the EU, but EU food prices are protected by the CAP from lower world prices. Similarly I imagine the Korean, Japanese and Chinese car makers would jump at the chance to sell us their luxury alternatives to Mercedes and BMW, and there must be countless other examples.
But trade is, or should, be a two way street and the current figures suggest to me that we are holding a very strong hand which the EU negotiators will be very aware of when the Brexit discussions start.

PS Just because all current European non EU countries are signed up to the free movement of labour as part of their trade agreements does not mean we have to follow the same route, our stronger negotiating position could enable us to be in the single market but not of the signal market.

[Silver_Shiney]

Bob, I really am struggling to understand your logic, I am not really concerned about the current imbalance of trade in the EU's favour, but I am fairly certain they are extremely concerned about having tariffs applied to goods they sell to their major customer which could hit their sales.
Equally I do not understand why you imply that we need to buy from them, which products would these be? Currently we buy a lot of our food from the EU, but EU food prices are protected by the CAP from lower world prices. Similarly I imagine the Korean, Japanese and Chinese car makers would jump at the chance to sell us their luxury alternatives to Mercedes and BMW, and there must be countless other examples.
But trade is, or should, be a two way street and the current figures suggest to me that we are holding a very strong hand which the EU negotiators will be very aware of when the Brexit discussions start.

PS Just because all current European non EU countries are signed up to the free movement of labour as part of their trade agreements does not mean we have to follow the same route, our stronger negotiating position could enable us to be in the single market but not of the signal market.

[barney]

Some of the facts coming out now are quite interesting.

I've only now found out that the EU dictates our contribution, based on how well our economy is doing.

So, quite simply put, the better we do, the more we pay in.

And ... we don't get a veto on that.

That is decided in Brussels using a formula.

So a more successful Britain inside the EU means continuous subsidy of the poor performers

What's not to love

[Silver_Shiney]

Oh for goodness sake! We all have a veto, is that political interference?

Here's another example of political interference, which affects all member states.

Disregarding the points about religious criticism, I draw your attention to:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel was overheard on a live microphone confronting Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg on what he was doing to prevent criticism of her open-door immigration policies.

The new code of conduct has been criticised by some members of the European parliament as “Orwellian”

To put this new EU regulation into some historical context. In 1694 the UK parliament effectively ended press censorship by not renewing the 1643 licensing order that allowed search, seizure and destruction of all books deemed to be “offensive” to the government. The EU is now effectively reintroducing online press censorship – with any posts deemed offensive by either itself or the staff of internet companies being destroyed.

No political interference, eh?

[gfwgfw]

If the vote is to leave it would be a first EU exit of any founder member . . me thinks tiz a bit of a gamble into the unknown . . .could work . . but on the other hand it could be a mucking disaster . . . a tad like Roy's boys winning the the European what's it in froggy land

Lubbooo all wherever Uput your X

Graham

[johnds]

If the vote is to leave it would be a first EU exit of any founder member . . me thinks tiz a bit of a gamble into the unknown . . .could work . . but on the other hand it could be a mucking disaster . . . a tad like Roy's boys winning the the European what's it in froggy land

Lubbooo all wherever Uput your X

Graham

The UK was not a founder of the Common Market

[Mervyn and Trish]

You're right, but I know what Graham means. We're a big economy and a big contributor. It would have a greater impact than say Greece quitting. And they were wetting themselves about the possibility of Greece binning the Euro.

[Mervyn and Trish]

So last night, as people rushed to register to vote in the referendum hours and even minutes before registration closed, the website crashed because of overwhelming demand. This morning politicians are calling for the registration period to be extended.

NOOOOOOO!

For goodness sake, we've known for months this referendum was coming and we've known for months you had to be on the electoral roll to vote in it. Anybody thick enough to leave it to the final hours and minutes to register is frankly too stupid to have a vote.

And if they extended the registration until Christmas there would still be idiots leaving it until Christmas Eve to get it done.

Rant over.

And breathe.......

[oldbluefox]

Anybody else fed up with all the rubbish being spouted on both sides of the argument?
I watched the Cameron/Farage debate last night and was singularly unimpressed with our PM who should have all the facts at his fingertips. Truth is the only questions he answered were those on the economy. The rest he twisted back round to .................................. the economy.
Right or wrong Farage did speak with some conviction and some passion and interestingly enough, a statistician was interviewed on the news afterwards who had analysed the figures quoted. Cameron's figures were way out and Farage's figures, whilst not spot on were very close. Which begs the question, what other figures and impressions are being banded around to achieve a result?
I don't believe two words Cameron, Osborne, Gladys Pugh, Mrs Krankie, Jeremy 'In/Out, shake it all about' Corbyn, Mark 'I will raise interest rates'Carney or any of that merry band string together. Maybe Farage was right when he said all the so-called experts are in the employ of the government in one way or another so they would say that, wouldn't they?
Take your pick, folks, and make your choices. That is unless you left it till the last minute having known long enough and missed out cos the servers crashed.

[johnds]

So CMD tells me I'm a "quitter", a "litle Englander" amd the I "do not love Britain". I can only assume that his persuasive skills are sadly lacking because such accusations are likely to make people more resolute to oppose his point of view rather than less.

[Silver_Shiney]

So CMD tells me I'm a "quitter", a "litle Englander" amd the I "do not love Britain". I can only assume that his persuasive skills are sadly lacking because such accusations are likely to make people more resolute to oppose his point of view rather than less.

If anything, CMD and QBob have strengthened my resolve to vote "out"

[allatc]

"Truth is the only questions he answered were those on the economy. The rest he twisted back round to .................................. the economy."

Because the whole remain campaign is entirely focused on the economy and its belief that that is all that matters whereas the Leave campaign is looking more towards Sovereignty.

I think it is probably true that if we leave the EU we will be in for several economically bumpy years, but it could be a price that is worth paying.

[qbman1]

So last night, as people rushed to register to vote in the referendum hours and even minutes before registration closed, the website crashed because of overwhelming demand. This morning politicians are calling for the registration period to be extended.

NOOOOOOO!

For goodness sake, we've known for months this referendum was coming and we've known for months you had to be on the electoral roll to vote in it. Anybody thick enough to leave it to the final hours and minutes to register is frankly too stupid to have a vote.

And if they extended the registration until Christmas there would still be idiots leaving it until Christmas Eve to get it done.

Rant over.

And breathe.......

I'm with you on that one Merv. I am sick of listening to people on the news today, bleating about not being able to register. One woman sounded almost in tears, saying she was a "regular voter" and was terrified she would be unable to vote. Get over it, dear, if you were that keen you wouldn't have left it until 5 minutes to midnight on deadline day !!

[qbman1]

"Truth is the only questions he answered were those on the economy. The rest he twisted back round to .................................. the economy."

Because the whole remain campaign is entirely focused on the economy and its belief that that is all that matters whereas the Leave campaign is looking more towards Sovereignty.

I think it is probably true that if we leave the EU we will be in for several economically bumpy years, but it could be a price that is worth paying.

I have to question whether the "ordinary people" will see a huge amount of difference whichever way the vote goes ?! No one actually knows the answer to that so I think it is simply a question of voting with your heart.

[Silver_Shiney]

"Truth is the only questions he answered were those on the economy. The rest he twisted back round to .................................. the economy."

Because the whole remain campaign is entirely focused on the economy and its belief that that is all that matters whereas the Leave campaign is looking more towards Sovereignty.

I think it is probably true that if we leave the EU we will be in for several economically bumpy years, but it could be a price that is worth paying.

The world is overdue a major recession so we're in for a rough ride economically anyway.

[oldbluefox]

I am also wondering how many surprises the EU are holding back which will be revealed if we gat a Remain majority. There could be all sorts of initiatives in the pipeline which could adversely affect the result of the referendum if announced now. Either way I reckon there will be a rough ride whichever way the vote goes.
I don't mind the term Little Englander. It is infinitely better than being an EU lapdog, which is exactly what I feel we are at the moment. And yes, it is about much more than trade and economy. It's about the freedom of UK to manage its own affairs through our own democratically elected parliament.

[towny44]

I keep having a little laugh to myself every time someone tells me we will have a much better voice and say in the future of the EU by staying in and maintaining our place at the table, including most recently Angela Merkel.

From my memory of past news items, over the years, no one wants to hear what the UK has to say, in fact very many have complained bitterly that we don't understand what the EU is about. Which probably is true since most of us voted for a Common Market not the Federal state it seems to be morphing into at present.

So if we vote remain will they take any more notice of us in the future?

[Silver_Shiney]

Only in your dreams, John.

[oldbluefox]

But we can veto anything we don't like, according to the PM. Really?????

[Silver_Shiney]

But we can veto anything we don't like, according to the PM. Really?????

Must be true - QBob said so...