Titanic Experience

[anneed]

Now I hope it's not considered bad form to promote something about the Titanic on a cruise forum but I wanted to tell you about this wonderful book I have just bought.

Many of you will no doubt already have heard of it - The Titanic Experience by Beau Riffenburgh. It is actually far more than a book containing a CD of Titanic voices and - the best bit - lots of inserts of facsimile documents relating to the disaster. All beautifully presented and illustrated, a real treasure for anyone interested in the doomed ship.

I looked for it on Amazon after a friend showed me a copy. His had cost £25. I found new copies being offered for just £7.17 plus £2.80 p&p by Bell's Bookshops. I was a bit worried that it seemed too cheap but just three days later the book arrived in perfect condition. I found that mine was the 100th anniversary edition and had a £30 price label on it.

So what a bargain! But it really makes you fear for the future of the High St book store.

[Dancing Queen]

I don't think bad form at all Anne I'm sure most of us have some interest in the Titanic and would find the book interesting.

I must admit the first time we went to Halifax Nova Scotia the highlight of our day there was to discover as much as we could about the Titanic as Halifax was the final resting place for many of the victims.

Our first stop was the cemetery, now many might ask why would you want to visit a cemetery but it is something you just have to do and I must say it was one of the most moving experiences of my life, I can't say why, it just was, such a beautiful, quiet, calming place and I would challenge anyone not to come away with a tear in their eye and a lump in their throat.

I wonder how many people know or realise that even today people are still being identified thanks to the advances of DNA and many of those blank headstones from our first visit about 16 years ago now bear a persons name, one grave ( as far as I'm still aware ) which is that of 'the unknown child' still remains a mystery, there was talk a couple of years ago that they had identified the child but I don't think they had.

There is also an excellent museum in Halifax which has a large section of it dedicated to the story of the Titanic, strangely enough there are a pair of shoes on display which are said to have belonged to the 'unknown child' I personally didn't think so as I believe the child was 2/3 years of age and the shoes I would have thought were more likely to have belonged to a child of 6/7 years of age but I guess one of these days they will find out for sure.

For anyone who hasn't tried this cruise I think it is up there in the top 3 and well worth consideration, not just Halifax there are other wonderful places on the itinerary.

I would love to visit the new Titanic Museum in Belfast.

[ITWA Travel Writer]

You may be interested to know:

Professor Clive Palmer, chairman of the Blue Star Line, signed a (MOU) Memorandum of Understanding on the 9th May 2014 to build Titanic II.

She will be an exact replica of the original Titanic, inside and out, but with totally up to date naval architectural safety features.

“Titanic II is scheduled to be launched from its construction base in China in 2018, before her maiden passenger voyage retracing its original journey from Southampton to New York.”

More information on the “Blue Star Line” web site.

[Gill W]

I think the Titanic will stay in the nation's collective memory for ever, and I would like to go to the Titanic Museum in Belfast, not to mention the cemetery in Halifax.

I've been to some of the WW1 cemeteries in Flanders, and found that it was a very peaceful place, a place for reflection and thought- I imagine the cemetery in Halifax to feel similar.

However, I'm very uncomfortable about plans to build a replica ship. Just seems wrong to me, cashing in on a terrible event like the sinking of a ship with all that terrible loss of life. I'd imagine it to be some sort of Downton Abbey theme park.

[Dancing Queen]

I think the Titanic will stay in the nation's collective memory for ever, and I would like to go to the Titanic Museum in Belfast, not to mention the cemetery in Halifax.

I've been to some of the WW1 cemeteries in Flanders, and found that it was a very peaceful place, a place for reflection and thought- I imagine the cemetery in Halifax to feel similar.

However, I'm very uncomfortable about plans to build a replica ship. Just seems wrong to me, cashing in on a terrible event like the sinking of a ship with all that terrible loss of life. I'd imagine it to be some sort of Downton Abbey theme park.

I feel the same Gill, I don't think it would be a ship I would want to go on.

Not only the Titanic there is lots of history surrounding Halifax, it's a very interesting little place, the first time we went we also went out to Peggy's Cove, not much there except it's famous lighthouse and a few shops and of course the large granite boulders you can walk across, this was also the place I believe many of the Titanic victims were brought ashore.

Our first visit there was round about 97/98 we had only been home a few days and watching the news saw the very boulders we had stood on a few days earlier, sadly another tragedy for this small town, a Swiss Air flight had gone down just off the Cove killing 200 + passengers on board, there is now a memorial site for those people we haven't seen it but if we go back again I'm sure it would be on the 'to do' list.

[Boris+]

Hi John,

This project has been dithering about for quite some time, and I reckon it won't get off the starting blocks in reality.

Like some others I really don't have any interest in going on a ship which is built on the basis of a tragedy - however I would love to visit the Titanic place in Belfast, and also Halifax.

Now I could be talking 'through my hat' (and it certainly wouldn't be the first time, so apologies), but somewhere in the dark corners of my mind I thought there was some a chap behind this project who has a reputation for saying he is going to do something - and then nothing happens.

So, I can't see it happening, even if it does (a) I can't see it being successful and (b) I can't see it being tasteful either.

It will be interesting to see what happens, but an MOU sometimes isn't really worth the paper it's written on - especially as I thought he had publicised the fact that this particular MOU was signed in April 2012 (but I could be wrong), so did it expire and this is a new one?

Em

[Boris+]

Hi Anne,

Yes the book certainly looks interesting - and I wonder if maybe a whole bunch of forumeers could get together for a trip to the museum in Belfast? Now there's a thought.

We are hoping to do a cruise in 2015 which includes a visit to Belfast, and maybe then we'll be able to go to that museum.

Meanwhile, I have a sneaky suspicion that the MOU which has recently been signed is between the designers and their owning company to promote the project in China to raise the capital as Clive Palmer is rumoured to be suffering financial problems.

Oh well - I think I'm going to concentrate on the items which Anne kindly mentioned, and hope for our cruise next year and a visit to the museum.

Em

[ITWA Travel Writer]

Em,

I think your remarks are accurate. The famous Prof goes from project to project, visa vi his Zeppelin Airship Project, but few ever get off the ground. Not always for financial reasons but because they are pretty outlandish.

This one does appear to have gained more momentum than others, with tank testing being carried out by HSVA in Hamburg. Probably the worlds leading Ship testing facility. They don't come cheap!!

Again looking at his where for all, he is a major player in the mining industry, owns several golf courses and vacation resorts as well as owning five private jets, 150 race horses and over 100 vintage cars and is reported a being a billionaire.

[Jan Rosser]

The Titanic museum in Belfast is on my list for the forthcoming Round Britain cruise in July - like Jo I've been to Halifax and also to the exhibition in Cobh and one year an exhibition was held in a railway station somewhere on the continent but I can't remember where or what the connection was - I'm having a senior moment Like most posters I can't say I fancy a trip on a new Titanic if it ever comes to fruition

[Boris+]

Hi John,

Gosh you are going to think I'm a real damp squib, but I don't really give this project any credibility, sorry. I've done a naughty thing and had a bit of a look at this chap - he is apparently an 'adjunct professor'. I know he's a politician (enough said perhaps?), and then I start to wonder how much of these 'assets' he owns (as in lock, stock and barrel cash paid) or are some of these assets on paper only.

I just don't want anyone to find themselves in a position of parting with hard-earned money to pay for an outing which in on a vessel which may never be built. By heck I'm being a blasted 'Jonah' about this - but even if it does get built will it ever operate as a replica of Titanic? Goodness knows, but I really wouldn't be much amused to see people going through all the upset of parting with payment and receiving only disappointment in return.

Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I think that once I have my hospital dates and I'm getting better I'm jolly well minded to book for the outing which will take me to Belfast because I really do want to visit that Museum.

Em

[ITWA Travel Writer]

I don’t think you’re a damp squib at all Em and I actually agree wholeheartedly with you.

However, I do have a bit of a problem with museum’s and exhibitions which depict the story, memorabilia and the personal tragedy of an event.

I am probably in the minority, but I find it rather ghoulish in refreshing the memory of such an event, so I will leave the Titanic Books, Museums, Replica Cruise Ships and memorial sites to those who have a stronger stomach than I.

[colwill]

I am probably in the minority, but I find it rather ghoulish in refreshing the memory of such an event, so I will leave the Titanic Books, Museums, Replica Cruise Ships and memorial sites to those who have a stronger stomach than I.

Probably. We had a close family member on the Titanic. We also have a sizeable collection of books on the subject, and plan on going to the museum in Belfast.

[Boris+]

Hi John,

I have a research project of sorts lined up for when I start losing my mobility etc - and it is what my husband and I refer to as the Titanic conspiracy.

Sorry to go a bit off piste, Anne. Do you have any views on the Titanic conspiracy theory - was it Titanic, or was it Olympic?

As I said, it's going to be my thing to do in years to come, and it's too early for me to start gathering stuff yet - but I do hate a mystery!

Em

[Capt Black]

Haynes, the company that prints workshop manuals for cars, do a book about the The Titanic. In the usual Haynes style of how to fix your car, the book advises you on how to fix Titanic! Well sort of.

It's more about the technical side of how she was built and functioned. I'm not an engineer, but found the book very interesting.

[ITWA Travel Writer]

Hi John,
I have a research project of sorts lined up for when I start losing my mobility etc - and it is what my husband and I refer to as the Titanic conspiracy.
Sorry to go a bit off piste, Anne. Do you have any views on the Titanic conspiracy theory - was it Titanic, or was it Olympic?
As I said, it's going to be my thing to do in years to come, and it's too early for me to start gathering stuff yet - but I do hate a mystery!
Em

My apologies Anne, but I must feed the fire that Em has ignited.

There are many bits about this incident which intrigue people.

One of the things that intrigues me surrounds ‘the lifeboat’ which was said to have been torn from the ship that she supposedly collided with and which was claimed to have remained afloat after the collision.

If a lifeboat from another ship was floating around the area, it would have been a different design and probably had the ships name on it, but nothing about this appears anywhere. There has never as far as I know been any other mention of this other lifeboat in any of the survivor’s testimonies.

I await you research with interest!!

[Frank Manning]

I do agree with ITWA on this. Having had a son killed in an accident at sea I find anything to do with Titanic memories very depressing. However, I can recommend a book 'Tramps and Ladies' by Commodore Sir James Bisset, who was 2nd Mate on the 'Carpathia' under Captain Rostron (himself becoming a Cunard Commodore).

Bisset is critical of the design of Titanic, of her reckless speed having been warned of ice by other ships, and he describes how a chance signal by Carpathia's Radio Officer led to the Carpathia learning of the distress of Titanic, and racing to try to get to her before she sank. the incident led to major chnages in ships, and especially in ship's radio watchkeeping with the introduction of Auto Alarms to detect distress messages when lone Radio Officers were off watch. Sad to say I have heard two or three P&O officers make sniggering sarcastic remarks about Radio Officers, and how "We dont need them now, we just press a button, and the sea kings appear".

The Carpathia's Radio Officer Cottam was a friend of one of the R/O's on the Titanic. Bisset is critical of the media at the time, who were more interested in a "story", and a "scoop" than in the facts; nothing changes. Ghouls rule OK, as far as the media are concerned.

[Boris+]

Anything which 'goes wrong at sea' (yes I'm glossing over it, and apologies for that), is so unbelievably sad, and losses are beyond description.

Moreso in the case of the Titanic, where maybe a hint of arrogance (they said it was unsinkable) or naivety seemed to rule over prudence.

I would (pardon the pun here) like to get to the bottom of the conspiracy theory - hints and whispers have made me query whether it was actually the Titanic which sank; and I do have a hint of a suspicion that maybe just maybe various (and numerous) items could have been exchanged between the two ships, but at the moment I simply don't know. I find that unsettling.

Anyway John, my research is something which I'm not going to head into for a while yet - but rest assured I shall do it quietly but as thoroughly as I can.

Em

[Frank Manning]

Bisset had been aboard the Olympic, before sailing from New York. There is no doubt in his book that the Olympic was the Olympic and the Titanic was the Titanic. I dont believe conspiracy theories, I do believe that there are often miscarriages of justice. where the establishment find a scapegoat to carry the can for the actions of one of their 'heroes'. Captain Lord of the Californian was such a scapegoat, to divert attention away from the recklessness of Titanic and her owners, it didn't fool Bisset or anyone in Cunard.

[Dark Knight]

One of the most controversial[7][8] and complex theories was put forward by Robin Gardiner in his book, Titanic: The Ship That Never Sank?[9] In it, Gardiner draws on several events and coincidences that occurred in the months, days, and hours leading up to the sinking of the Titanic, and concludes that the ship that sank was in fact Titanic's sister ship Olympic, disguised as Titanic, as an insurance scam.

Olympic was the older sister of Titanic, built alongside the more famous vessel but launched in October 1910. Her exterior profile was nearly identical to Titanic, save for minor details such as the number of portholes on the forward C decks of the ships, the spacing of the windows on the B decks, and the forward section of the A deck promenade on Titanic that had been enclosed a few weeks before she set sail on her ill-fated maiden voyage.

On 20 September 1911, the Olympic was involved in a collision with the Royal Navy Warship HMS Hawke in the Brambles Channel near Southampton. The two ships were close enough to each other that Olympic's motion drew the Hawke into her after starboard side, causing extensive damage to the liner - both above and below its waterline (HMS Hawke was fitted with a re-inforced 'ram' below the waterline, purposely designed to cause maximum damage to enemy ships). An Admiralty inquiry assigned blame to the Olympic, despite numerous eye-witness accounts to the contrary.

Gardiner's theory plays out in this historical context. As Olympic was found to blame in the collision (which, according to Gardiner, had damaged the central turbine's mountings and the keel), White Star's insurers Lloyds of London allegedly refused to pay out on the claim. White Star's flagship would also be out of action during any repairs, and the Titanic's completion date would have to be delayed. All this would amount to a serious financial loss for the company. Gardiner proposes that, to make sure at least one vessel would be earning money, Olympic was then converted to become the Titanic. The real Titanic when complete would then quietly enter service as the Olympic.

Gardiner states that few parts of either ship bore the name, other than the easily removed lifeboats, bell, compass binnacle, and name plates. The plan, Gardiner suggests, was to dispose of the badly damaged Olympic in a way that would allow White Star to collect the full insured value of a brand new ship. He supposes that the seacocks were to be opened at sea to slowly flood the ship. If numerous ships were stationed nearby to take off the passengers, the shortage of lifeboats would not matter as the ship would sink slowly and the boats could make several trips to the rescuers.

Gardiner uses as evidence the length of Titanic's sea trials. Olympic's trials in 1910 took two days, including several high speed runs, but Titanic's trials reportedly only lasted for one day, with (Gardiner alleges) no working over half-speed. Gardiner says this was because the patched-up hull could not take any long periods of high speed.

Gardiner maintains that on 14 April, Officer Murdoch (who was not officially on duty yet) was on the bridge because he was one of the few high-ranking officers who knew of the plan and was keeping a watch out for the rescue ships. One of Gardiner's most controversial statements is that the Titanic did not strike an iceberg, but an IMM rescue ship that was drifting on station with its lights out. Gardiner based this hypothesis on the idea that the supposed iceberg was seen at such a short distance by the lookouts on the Titanic because it was actually a darkened ship, and he also does not believe an iceberg could inflict such sustained and serious damage to a steel double-hulled (sic) vessel such as the Titanic.

Gardiner further hypothesises that the ship that was hit by the Titanic was the one seen by the Californian firing distress rockets, and that this explains the perceived inaction of the Californian (which traditionally is seen as failing to come to the rescue of the Titanic after sighting its distress rockets). Gardiner's hypothesis is that the Californian was not expecting rockets, but a rendezvous. The ice on the deck of the Titanic is explained by Gardiner as ice from the rigging of both the Titanic and the mystery ship she hit. As for the true Titanic, Gardiner alleges that she spent 25 years in service as the Olympic.

Simple reference to Board of Trade regulations of 1912 will confirm that rockets fired as they were from the Titanic, in intervals greater than one minute apart, did not signify distress. This being so, the Californian was completely correct in her inaction.

Researchers Bruce Beveridge and Steve Hall took issue with many of Gardiner's claims in their book, Olympic and Titanic: The Truth Behind the Conspiracy.[7] Author Mark Chirnside has also raised serious questions about the switch theory.[8]

It should be noted that the Titanic and Olympic were not fully insured. Lloyd's of London did not have sufficient underwriters in the insurance world of over a century ago to offer full coverage. In this case, an insurance scheme seems highly unlikely to yield adequate payout. Numerous expert historians and builder's documents affirm that a multitude of subtle differences in construction of the two ships makes a switch improbable to have gone undetected. While few components bore the ships names, most were cast or stamped with the builder's designated hull numbers, again making a switch unlikely.

Stolen from Wiki,
if this is the best people have to occupy their days, then they really need to get out more and stop fantasising about stuff and actually go and do some of it

[Frank Manning]

Hi DK!
Yes, but I am also surprised that given the weight of other evidence, any credibility at all was given to Gardiner's theory. Other ships were reporting ice, Titanic (Olympic) must have been travelling at full speed to reach the position of the wreck, given eye witness accounts of her time of leaving Cobh, Captain Smith's part in the whole business, Ismay forcing himself into a lifeboat, Lightoller's testimony, Titanic's surviving R/O's testimony and his working alongside Cottam in the Carpathia's Radio Room to clear messages relating to the tragedy. Someone (many) would have seen and smelled a rat.

There is no way a switch could have been kept secret, too many people were involved.

The sad thing is that people are making big bucks today out of the deaths of those poor people; that much stinks to me!

[Dark Knight]

Frank
Totally agree
how can the overwhelming evidence by wrong?
next it will be space aliens and the illuminate responsible for the sinking
honestly some people

[Not so ancient mariner]

You may be interested to know:

Professor Clive Palmer, chairman of the Blue Star Line, signed a (MOU) Memorandum of Understanding on the 9th May 2014 to build Titanic II.

She will be an exact replica of the original Titanic, inside and out, but with totally up to date naval architectural safety features.

“Titanic II is scheduled to be launched from its construction base in China in 2018, before her maiden passenger voyage retracing its original journey from Southampton to New York.”

More information on the “Blue Star Line” web site.

The Blue Star Line was the first company I went to sea with - in a ship that was built at...... yes, you've guessed it - Harland and Wolff, Belfast

[colwill]

Frank
Totally agree
how can the overwhelming evidence by wrong?
next it will be space aliens and the illuminate responsible for the sinking
honestly some people

Or, perhaps, Elvis, Michael Jackson, Lee Harvey Oswald?

The only event in recent history that I view as deeply fishy is poor old Dr Kelly, as do many far better qualified to smell a rat than I.

[Quizzical Bob]

Part of the impetus for the conspiracy theory comes from the fact that newsreel footage described as the Titanic was actually of the Olympic and you can see on this that the name on the stern has been blacked out manually.

This lady was on board all three ships of the class when they suffered their mishaps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_Jessop

The most senior surviving office was Charles Lightoller who was of interest to me when I found that he had lived locally at Netley Abbey and we pass this every time that we leave Southampton. He had quite an interesting career after the Titanic and in his own boat 'Sundowner' brought 127 men back from Dunkirk: http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/ch ... oller.html

Hear his account here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/titanic/5047.shtml

[Boris+]

Hi Dark Knight,

You said "if this is the best people have to occupy their days, then they really need to get out more and stop fantasising about stuff and actually go and do some of it".

This is something I am looking at at the moment. I should be on a cruise, but I can't be on a cruise because of stuff beyond my control. As soon as I can get back on board, I shall. Until then I can't. What I am looking at is neither immoral nor illegal - it harms no-one and it amuses me. There's no harm in it and I'm harming nobody.

Em