Indefensible

[towny44]

Maybe a little part of this 'problem' is that the blockade created by Israel as good as ensures that the weapons fired by Hamas aren't as accurate as those fired by Israel.

Having said that, and thinking that it is possible that Hamas as good as know that they can't guarantee where their missiles are going to land and explode - what do people expect them to do - give up and be invaded and ruled by Israel? Why should they?

On the other hand, Israel know that they are blockading supplies etc into Palestine, so from my point of view, Israel knows that it is limiting Palestine's ability to fire missiles accurately - if Israel doesn't like being on the receiving end of the 'wayward' missiles, it should lift the blasted blockade (which is a big complaint made by Palestine).

Someone said to me recently that they thought that Israel were stirring up this situation and then crying at the slightest thing, when what they are doing to Palestine is several times worse. I bit my tongue at the time (and changed the subject quickly), but maybe this is true. Em

Have I understod your point correctly Em, Israel should stop their blockade of Gaza so Hamas can get hold of better quality rockets to more accurately bomb them.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

[davecttr]

I have heard it said that "if the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be no more war. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel."

And that is the root of the problem!

[Boris+]

I strongly believe that anything 'won' by participation in an 'unfair' competition (or war in this case) is a shabby and hollow victory; not worthy of praising nor supporting. Hence I think that if and I mean IF Israel 'won' this war, they should be ashamed of themselves, because in the first place they have no right to take over Palestine (in my silly way of thinking) and secondly they have hampered Palestine's ability to survive let alone defend themselves by this disgraceful blockage.

So here's an alternative - firstly Israel should agree to having some of their facilities and installations completely and utterly put out of use by being destroyed, then Israel should have their weaponry severely restricted or removed (to match what Palestine/Hamas has), and then there should be a clamp down on the quality/quantity of things like food etc (and medical stuff too if it comes to that), and also the armed forces which they are permitted to use against Palestine should be severely restricted. If there has to be further fighting, let's have a level playing field at least. Fair's fair!

However, what I would really like to see is a situation where Israel makes reparation for the damage it has caused, followed by compensation for innocent lives destroyed, and a complete handing-back to Palestine of any land and assets wrongfully taken by Israel.

Em

[Silver_Shiney]

I understand where you are coming from, Em, and Israel does have a Biblical duty to care for those within its borders, a duty it seems to be woefully ignoring.

However, if its weaponry was reduced to the same level as Hamas, they would not be able to defend themselves from their other enemies, who would then have military superiority.

Armageddon is not far away.

[david63]

Firstly Em - there is nothing "fair" about war.

Secondly if you look back in history Israel did not start the aggression - that was started the day after the State of Israel was declared after the UN had already implemented the partition of Palestine.

There are only two ways to end any war:

1. The total domination of of one side by the other.

2. A willingness by all parties to arrive at a solution - and that is almost impossible (NI being a prime example)

[Delboy]

Em
As I posted on a previous post, I am sure Israel would totally disagree with your analysis of the situation, and consider your solution totally flawed.

Hamas is a Sunni Islamist group and a terrorist organization violently opposed to the state of Israel.

Hamas is viewed by most Western analysts as an obstacle to the Arab-Israeli peace process and the goal of a two-state solution.

Even as the death toll mounts in the Gaza Strip, attempts to broker a cease-fire between Hamas and Israel have so far run aground, partly because they have become mired in the deep divisions between Mideast countries.

Don't forget Egypt also have a blockade of Gaza in force.

At the center of the problems is the bitter enmity between Egypt and its Gulf allies like Saudi Arabia on one side and Gaza's Hamas rulers and its allies, Turkey and Qatar, on the other.

A recent Egyptian cease fire proposal quickly fell apart, when Israel accepted it, but Hamas rejected it.

All parties do have some form of action to be blamed, but what do you expect Israel to do, sit back whilst Hamas daily fire it's rockets at populated areas of Israel. Rockets carried by there children, stored in the schools in Gaza, 20 rockets recently found in a UN school in Gaza.

Israel gave warning if the Hamas rockets continued they would bomb this area, and gave them the opportunity to evacuate the area.

Hamas are prepared to accept free electricity food etc from the UN, whilst they happily spend all their money into weapons.

Whatever agreements are reached Hamas will never give up on wanting to destroy the state of Israel and Israel are never going to let that happen, and so it will continue. The people of Gaza voted for Hamas, and unfortunately are reaping the consequences.



Sent from my iPad

[Delboy]

Em

Sorry don't know how that smillie appeared, I certainly did not knowingly post it, only just seen it or I would have deleted it.

[david63]

Em

Sorry don't know how that smillie appeared, I certainly did not knowingly post it, only just seen it or I would have deleted it.

I have edited out for you Delboy

[Delboy]

Em

Sorry don't know how that smillie appeared, I certainly did not knowingly post it, only just seen it or I would have deleted it.

I have edited out for you Delboy

Thanks David.

[Ray Scully]

One thousand plus Palestinian civilian deaths, 3500 injured...........In my book Genocide

And all this because the downing of Malaysian MH 17 gave Benjamin Netanyahu the political cover to go into Gaza.

[oldbluefox]

It might help if Hamas stopped firing rockets..................

[Ray Scully]

It might help if Hamas stopped firing rockets..................

OBF
A few Israeli deaths from rocket attacks
surely you don't suggest it justifies wholesale slaughter on this scale.


Ray

[towny44]

It might help if Hamas stopped firing rockets..................

OBF
A few Israeli deaths from rocket attacks
surely you don't suggest it justifies wholesale slaughter on this scale.


Ray

No it doesn't,, but how do you expect the Israelies to react to an organisation that refuses to consider anything except the end of the state of Israel.

[oldbluefox]

Ray, I didn't suggest anything but when there are so many civilian deaths and the majority of your rockets are being intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defence shield it begs the question what would happen if Hamas stopped firing the rockets. Why does Israel have a missile defence shield in the first place?

Much as we condemn the level of civilian casualties the situation will not be resolved until Hamas, which is a terrorist organization opposed to the state of Israel, stops firing rockets. Perhaps then the negotiations can begin although the cynic in me suggests that this is a problem which can never be resolved, certainly not whilst Hamas is in power.

[Delboy]

One thousand plus Palestinian civilian deaths, 3500 injured...........In my book Genocide

And all this because the downing of Malaysian MH 17 gave Benjamin Netanyahu the political cover to go into Gaza.

When Israel makes up their mind to do something they will do it. Benjamin Netanyahu certainly did not need the political cover of the downing of an aircraft to go into Gaza.

We should condemn all deaths, irrespective of which side they are on, but here lies the difference.

Whilst Israel will do everything to protect their citizens, Hamas are prepared to use its civilians as human shields, they were given prior warning of the attacks so they could evacuate its citizens

As explained by Benjamin Netanyahu what Hamas is doing is very cynically it is embedding its rocketeers, its rocket cashes, its tunnels - these terror tunnels in homes, in hospitals, in schools, and when we take action, as targeted as we can, they then use their civilians as human shields," Netanyahu added. "So Hamas is both targeting civilians and Hamas is hiding behind civilians.

That's a double war crime, and therefore all civilian deaths as regrettable as they are fall on their shoulders.

The numbers of Hamas rockets being fired into Israel run into thousands, as Benjamin Netanyahu, and the Israeli prime minister, and Avigdor Lieberman, the foreign minister, recently told our new Foreign Secretary Mr Hammond
"I think you, as a representative of the UK, of Britain, have a special understanding, at least a historical understanding, of what Israel is undergoing,"
"There's only been one other instance where a democracy has been rocketed and pelleted with these projectiles of death, and that's Britain during World War Two. Israel is undergoing a similar bombardment now."
Mr Liberman went further, telling Mr Hammond that Hamas, like Hitler, wanted to "exterminate the Jews".


Sent from my iPad

[Silver_Shiney]

Got it in one, Delboy

[Boris+]

Hi Delboy,

Thanks for your point of view. Don't worry about a smilie - I wouldn't have worried, not a problem - have a great weekend.

Hi Ray -

Well, yes!

Em

[Delboy]

Just read this on the BBC app.

Israel has extended a ceasefire in Gaza until 21:00 GMT and is considering a 24-hour pause, officials say.

There was no immediate decision from Palestinian group Hamas. Israel said three mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel after a 12-hour truce ended.

[oldbluefox]

That being the case, who is provoking whom? And it is the citizens of Gaza who suffer the consequences.

[Boris+]

I suspect that Israel is goading Palestine because almost 'unnoticed' they still have several tanks there - and tanks carry soldiers and weapons. Tanks etc and the damage they can do and the insidious close-up bullying threat they pose aren't it seems quite as newsworthy as a couple of alleged missiles.

Has anyone ever bothered to think that if there are tunnels in Gaza that they may well be used to obtain albeit black market goods for the inhabitants? Israel has not yet conquered the area, and so they should get their tanks and soldiers and weapons and get the heck out of it. It's not much of an offer from Israel if they are still interfering with the Palestinian population.

Em

[oldbluefox]

There are tanks and rockets out there but they only become effective when they are fired. Israel will not retreat until they are satisfied the tunnels have been destroyed and until the danger of rocket attack has been eliminated. I see Hamas will only accept a ceasefire if Israel removes its tanks. For the sake of its inhabitants in Gaza I don't think Hamas have a strong bargaining tool.

Maybe the tunnels were used for obtaining black market goods. Unfortunately it appears the tunnels were also being used or could be used to smuggle in weapons, infiltrate Israel and to launch attacks. The embargo on Gaza exists to reduce the possibility of weapons getting into the hands of Hamas and to monitor what is going in. I can see no change in the status quo until the threat of attack from Hamas subsides and is eliminated altogether. My concern is that if Hamas folds altogether it leaves a vacuum which could provide a platform for Al Qaeda or Isis.

After the abduction and murder of the three Jewish boys I am not surprised by this situation. This area is just a tinder box waiting to ignite and that was the spark.

[Ray Scully]

A resolution will only start to be be found once an Palestinian life is valued the same as an Israeli life.

Ray

[oldbluefox]

A resolution will only start to be be found once an Palestinian life is valued the same as an Israeli life

............................. which will never be achieved by force or threat.

[Silver_Shiney]

There will never be a resolution.

I'm readng a very interesting booklet about the history of Israel and the background to all the conflicts. It's a .pdf - if anyone wants to read it, please PM me with your email address and I'll send it.

[oldbluefox]

When you have two 'tribes' claiming historical rights to the same land conflict is bound to arise. To my mind the two party state is the best solution:

"In my vision of peace, in this small land of ours, two peoples live freely, side-by-side, in amity and mutual respect. Each will have its own flag, its own national anthem, its own government. Neither will threaten the security or survival of the other. These two realities - our connection to the land of Israel, and the Palestinian population living within it - have created deep divisions in Israeli society. But the truth is that we have much more that unites us than divides us... If we receive this guarantee regarding demilitarization and Israel's security needs, and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the State of the Jewish people, then we will be ready in a future peace agreement to reach a solution where a demilitarized Palestinian state exists alongside the Jewish state."

Benjamin Netanyahu, MSc, Prime Minister of Israel, June 14, 2009

However this can never be achieved whilst Palestine refuses to acknowledge any Israeli state and has vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

It's not a totally hopeless situation IMO. You only have to look at relations between the West and Iran to see what a difference Iran's new President has made after the disaster who was Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.