Indefensible

[Ray Scully]

Perhaps the downing of MH 17 will be a wake up call to all who bank roll or equip these proxy wars and terrorist activities. Some would consider the situation on a knife edge with the escalation of terrorists worldwide attacks on commercial aircraft a real possibility, as well as a dirty nuclear device being exploded.


Ray

[Ray Scully]

Forget the blame game guys

This is the reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ

Ray

p.s. I wonder how many of us if brought up under the conditions which prevail in Gaza, would not be terrorist.

[Silver_Shiney]

Forget the blame game guys

This is the reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ

Ray

p.s. I wonder how many of us if brought up under the conditions which prevail in Gaza, would not be terrorist.

or the reality that Hamas wanted to show Jon Snow? The "panda marks" on that little girl look too neat.

Undeniably, children are suffering and that is diabolical, but how do you know that Hamas are not using them as human shields? It is known that they launch attacks from schools and civilian buildings.

[Manoverboard]

I thought the Brits caused it when we pinched the Arab lands to invent Israel .... the conflict will therefore never go away.

[Delboy]

Forget the blame game guys

This is the reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ

Ray

p.s. I wonder how many of us if brought up under the conditions which prevail in Gaza, would not be terrorist.

Which brings me back to the quotation I posted on my original post on this thread .


Golda Meir - 1957

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

[Silver_Shiney]

“We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement.… We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home... our two movements complement one another.”

Emir Faisal, a leader of the Arab world, 1919.

"The Jews legally bought the land they developed primarily from absentee landowners. Most of it was uncultivated swampland or sand dunes. They (Jews) paid high prices for the land, and in addition, they paid to certain occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay.”

Hope Simpson Report, 1930 5

“Of the total of 418,000 dunums (quarter-acres) acquired by Jews in Palestine [between 1878 and 1914], 58 percent was sold by non-Palestinian [Arab] absentee landlords and 36 percent by Palestinian absentee landlords, for a total of 94 percent.”

Palestinian-American historian Rashid Khalidi

“Those good Jews brought…prosperity over Palestine without damage to anyone or taking anything by force.”

Syrian Alawi notable’s letter to French Prime Minister, June 1936

“No one doubted that the Arabs had benefited from Jewish immigration. Their numbers had almost doubled between 1917 and 1940, wages had gone up, the
standard of living had risen more than anywhere else in the Middle East.”

Historian Walter Laqueur

“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an open sore, as an affront to the UN and as a weapon against Israel.”

Ralph Galloway, former Director of UNRWA, August 1958

“Since 1948 Arab leaders…have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is…criminal.” —King Hussein of Jordan, 1960

“All the Arab countries want to keep this problem looking like an open wound.”

Ana Liria-Franch, regional representative in Cairo for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 2003

Palestinians had not made any claims to the Territories until Israel captured them from Egypt and Jordan in 1967. During Egypt and Jordan’s 19-year occupation (1948-1967), no one called for a Palestinian state that would include Gaza and the West Bank. West Bank residents became Jordanian citizens. The original PLO Covenant (1964) explicitly excluded the Territories from its description of Palestine and called instead for the destruction of Israel and for replacing it with Arab rule.

The PLO amended its Charter to include a claim to the Territories only after Israel captured them in 1967.

The PLO “does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area.” Article 24, PLO Covenant, 1964

Israel repeatedly tried to end the Occupation after 1967. Israel had no wish to rule over the Palestinians. Within two weeks after hostilities ended, Israel offered to exchange land for peace, but Arab leaders categorically rejected the offer, officially issuing the “Three NOs” in Khartoum.

“No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.” —Khartoum Resolution, Sept 1, 1967

During its administration of the Territories, Israel sought to improve the lives of the Palestinians. Military barriers came down, and for the fi rst time since the 1948 War, Israelis and Palestinians could travel more freely between the Territories and the Jewish State. Israel also removed all the Jordanian and Israeli military barriers that had divided Jerusalem between 1948 and 1967. Israel helped modernize Palestinian infrastructure (aiding in the creation of more than 2,000 manufacturing plants), established seven universities, expanded schools, taught modern agriculture, set up medical programs and opened over 100 health clinics. Israel instituted freedom of the press, of association and of religion and “launched something entirely new, the first authentically Palestinian administration the local Arabs had ever known.” Unemployment plummeted, life expectancy soared and the population nearly doubled in the 26 years between 1967 and 1993.

“During the 1970s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth-fastest-growing economy in the world—ahead of such ‘wonders’ as Singapore, Hong Kong and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself.”

Israel did not begin building the security fence until 2002, when terrorism reached unprecedented levels. Though many have protested against the fence, it is similar to barriers that dozens of other
democracies have built on their borders for a variety of reasons, such as those between the US and Mexico, India and Pakistan (Kashmir), and South and North Korea. Israel’s security fence is saving lives. — Historian Efraim Karsh

“Israel has proved that for fifty years its real power is in its democracy, guarding the rights of its citizens, applying laws [equally] to the rich and poor, the big and small…and in the participation of the nation in the development of institutions according to ability and efficiency and not according to closeness to [the ruler].” —Columnist Dr. Talal Al-Shareef, Palestinian newspaper Al-Quds,
May 27, 1999

Since polls were first taken in 1996, Palestinians have consistently rated Israel’s democracy as the one they most admire in the world.

“Every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best [67 percent in 1999], followed by the French.” —Center for Palestine Research and Studies

[Ray Scully]

.................... another week passes and the MURDER of innocent Palestinian children continues. An eye for an eye? seems more like the Israelis have a ratio of over 50 to 1 in mind.
However it looks as though at long last the British and American Governments are reconsidering the unconditional support given to the Israelis.

Ray

[oldbluefox]

Ray, do Hamas have any role in securing peace and alleviating the suffering of the common people? Do they not share some of the responsibility for what is happening in Gaza?

[davecttr]

.................... another week passes and the MURDER of innocent Palestinian children continues. An eye for an eye? seems more like the Israelis have a ratio of over 50 to 1 in mind.
However it looks as though at long last the British and American Governments are reconsidering the unconditional support given to the Israelis.

Ray

Since when in warfare did having similar number of casualties to the enemy become a good idea?

MURDER means killing those kids was a deliberate, premeditated act, I don't think so.

the TERRORIST organisation Hamas could easily stop the killing by ceasing to attack Israel. They won't though because they want to wipe out Israel.

Removing support for Israel is more likely to make them even more belligerant. After all, they have nowhere else to go. Anyone willing to make room for 6 million refugees?

[david63]

Although I don't think that it has actually been announced I believe that it is Israel's intention to once and for all "wipe out" Hamas and no matter what any other country says or does they will not change that stance - whether we agree or not is irrelevant.

[towny44]

Although I don't think that it has actually been announced I believe that it is Israel's intention to once and for all "wipe out" Hamas and no matter what any other country says or does they will not change that stance - whether we agree or not is irrelevant.

But presumably even the most hard line Israeli must accept that they can never wipe out Hamas, although I agree it is probably their aim.

[Ray Scully]

There was an excellent piece on the history of the area on Sky News today. The Palestinians have been stuffed from day one by a very powerful and influential worldwide Israeli lobby. Is it any wonder that this has breeded Hamas and given excuse to so many Arab based terrorist groups, whilst we here in the west are picking up the tab. As I said before I think many supporting Israel would themselves be terrorists if raised in Gaza.

Ray

[Boris+]

I was shocked and horrified to hear the news report about the attack on a town which was done as a sort of reprisal because one Israeli soldier has disappeared or has been killed. I think the name of the town is Rafah - and this reminds me of Oradour-sur-Glane in France, and the atrocity committed there by the Germans. It's not the same, but quite similar - an extremely heavy handed reprisal.

I'm sickened by all of this, and disgusted.

Em

[oldbluefox]

The sad fact is as long as there is Hamas, or any other terrorist group in the region committed to the destruction of Israel there will never be peace between the Arabs and the Israelis. It is a chicken and egg situation but a situation Hamas can never win.

[Silver_Shiney]

The sad fact is as long as there is Hamas, or any other terrorist group in the region committed to the destruction of Israel there will never be peace between the Arabs and the Israelis. It is a chicken and egg situation but a situation Hamas can never win.

Like I said earlier, if the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be no more fighting. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be no more Israel.

[Ray Scully]

The sad fact is as long as there is Hamas, or any other terrorist group in the region committed to the destruction of Israel there will never be peace between the Arabs and the Israelis. It is a chicken and egg situation but a situation Hamas can never win.

Like I said earlier, if the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be no more fighting. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be no more Israel.

Alan

You still have not jusified the genocide of innocent Palestinian children.

Ray

[oldbluefox]

In fairness Ray, you haven't answered my questions either.

The fact of the matter is, both sides are culpable whether we agree or not.

[Silver_Shiney]

Ray

I made my view perfectly clear earlier.

However, please bear in mind that the Israelies give advance warning that they are going to strike a building and that the occupants must leave. How do we know if the occupants in these tragic cases were forbidden from leaving?

If the Israelis did, indeed, cause indiscriminate carnage, then they must be brought to account.

Don't forget that there are three sides to every argument - Hamas' case, the Israelis' case, and the truth.

[gfwgfw]

Begorrah

How lucky am I

To be just a Darzet lucky country bumpkin

Us does about lubs everybody

The Bunny Happy Giant of Cerne Abbas

[Silver_Shiney]

What a crying shame more people don't share that point of view, dear Graham

[Manoverboard]

I was watching the BBC Breakfast program this morning and they broadcasted an extract from one of the Sunday papers about the use of the tunnels and how the Palestinian ' terrorists ', for that is what they are, can and do emerge anywhere at will to cause havoc and death but more importantly to put a growing fear in the hearts and minds of ordinary Israeli folk.

Israel surely has the God given right to defend itself against such actions as indeed we would if the same happened in Cumbria following Scottish independence .... just a thought rather than a prediction of course.

[oldbluefox]

The problem is that for all the posturing of Hamas over the loss of civilian life, they care little for their people in the pursuit of their political and ideological beliefs. The Palestinian people in Gaza are merely pawns in this conflict and I cannot see Israel withdrawing until all the tunnels have been destroyed.

[Boris+]

Well, I don't know - I just don't 'know' with any degree of satisfactory certainty - if I trust the Israeli's. Firstly they blockade a country and then complain when that country tries to do something about it! That beggars belief - and for me that's just for starters!

So what - Israel don't like the missiles coming over from Palestine, and they are now publishing the fact that they are scared of the usage of the tunnels - I don't suppose that people in Palestine like the hugely heavy handed bombardment with all it's accuracy and superior quantity delivered from Israel much either.

I get the feeling - rightly or wrongly - that Israel weep and cry over the slightest thing, whilst the Palestinians are short of supplies and scrabble about the rubble of their ruined lives. An item on the news today said that people in Israel are so scared of these tunnels - just how does that compare to having a well equipped, well fed and supplied and rested armed force having a go at you? It's a poor comparison, I know, but I feel that one side (Israel) are afraid of a fish in the water, and the other side (Palestine) are coping with the lifestyle of a great white shark. There's no comparison really.

I have to wonder just at what point Israel knew that the 'kidnapped' soldier had been killed and not kidnapped?

No, I'm sorry - I am rapidly running out of patience with Israel. I just can't see any justification for their disgraceful behaviour. That's simply the way I see it now, but above all, I wish it would stop.

Em

[oldbluefox]

I agree wholeheartedly with your last five words Em.
However, Hamas' 'I am going to keep poking you with this stick and, given the opportunity I will kill you' philosophy will never lead to a dialogue and peaceful, negotiated settlement. The lion roars when you poke it.

[Silver_Shiney]

Em, you criticise Israel for the blockade - but you don't seem to criticise Egypt, who are also enforcing the blockade.