Change to education

[Kendhni]

Gove sets out 'core knowledge' curriculum plans
I agree and disagree. I have always thought that with modern search engines and always available information then it is important to teach someone the basics and, when they need the information allow them to go and fill in the detail. In my job it is important to have internet access because nobody could know everything that is needed from day-to-day.

So to me what you need is a breadth of knowledge and the skills to provide the depth when required. I suppose it is important to get the balance between the two correct.

[david63]

I would be inclined to agree up to a point.

Education has to get the basics right and as we all know it is necessary to know what information you search for on the Internet is [basically] true and which is a load of rubbish (and there is plenty of that). And this is where the problem lies - being able to distinguish between the two - we all know about the "spell chequer" story, and you have to know the approximate answer when doing some maths (999 x 10 is not going to be 450)

[oldbluefox]

I believe education in this country needs a radical re-think.

We were talking about this only the other day. There are two members of my own family who bothered very little about school beyond the age of 14 and didn't even bother to take GCSEs. They went into apprenticeships, onto college, got their vocational qualifications and are now doing very nicely. They enjoy their jobs and are making very good money especially compared to the hours of study and stressed work I put in myself.

It made me think (again) why we insist on our children, who are not academically minded, are pushed through academic qualifications which will have no benefit for their future role in life. Whilst they all need the basics of Maths and English thereafter would it not benefit them more to follow vocational courses in the world of work coupled with school or college. Maybe this approach would lead, not only to fewer children dropping out of school, but to better employment prospects when they leave school. They would also have experienced the world of work and would provide a focus for those who 'kick off' because they have become disillusioned with school. Many years ago we changed the leaving age from 15 to 16. In all cases I am not so sure this has been a positive policy.

[david63]

Whilst that approach has much merit OBF I can see a couple of possible problems.

Such a system would rely heavily on there actually being the jobs available - something which is not happening at the current time and also could we not create a situation where some youngsters end up going down a fairly narrow road with little experience in other areas, which may, in turn, lead to further problems later in life?

[oldbluefox]

I'm not sure I agree entirely David.

Not all children would follow this track, some would be going into academia and some into higher technical education. I am really looking at those children for whom school after the age of 14 holds little relevance. Much would depend on local businesses taking them on, whether that be in retail trade, building, secretarial, support services, agriculture etc. I can't help thinking that an earlier intervention into the world of work would be far preferable to imbuing them with the mistaken belief that the only way forward is through university coupled with their own realisation that this is not the way forward. It leaves them in limbo and whilst children, by law, have to attend school I wonder how much they are actually learning beyond the age of 14. As I say it was just a thought that maybe there is a better way. It would be up to government to sort out the fine detail.

[paultheeagle]

I have felt for years now that Politicians (of all persuasions) should not be the people making policy on important things like Education...They should leave it to the proffesionals..people in Education....Those that know what they are talking about...not trying to get votes.....That creep Michael Gove (is he the worst Education Secretary ever?) is detested by nearly every teacher that stands in front of a classroom.

Same applies to Health as well....

[Kendhni]

Paul, in a way you have a point but the reality may be closer to what you suggest than you think. In general the ministers are just front men for the departments who work behind the scene and suggest what changes they would like and need. That, along with public desires and budgetary constraints will form policy. In fact, because of this, you will often find that despite what any party may say in public, they are much more closely aligned behind the scenes.

[Kendhni]

That creep Michael Gove (is he the worst Education Secretary ever?) is detested by nearly every teacher that stands in front of a classroom.

You obviously haven't checked out the full list

[paultheeagle]

That creep Michael Gove (is he the worst Education Secretary ever?) is detested by nearly every teacher that stands in front of a classroom.

You obviously haven't checked out the full list

Name a worse one. ....See you can't.

[Onelife]

Oh dear what can the matter be?...well let’s start with an education system that has so many flaws in it that it becomes counter productive...it you abide by the rules e.g. give a good all round education you run the risk of being seen as a failing school. If on the other hand you jump through the hoops to meet Government targets you’ll be judged as a successful school.

It is the government who are failing our children and not the teachers IMO

Regards

OL

[oldbluefox]

PTE
Keith Joseph, Kenneth Clarke, Estelle Morris, Alan Johnson - all pretended they knew what they were doing. For me one of the best was Charles Clarke but he was so clear thinking he was moved off the scene.

Kenneth Clarke made a hash of the Police, the NHS and then Education. He only lasted a short while in each job before being moved away, presumably for damage limitation.

[Kendhni]

OBF, you forgot to mention a certain Mrs Margaret Thatcher who was also education secretary ... I was sure paul would have picked her as the worst.

[oldbluefox]

I was being objective Kenneth.

I had no problem with Ministers who were pragmatic in their approach but the latter incumbents have been driven by targets and assessment, backed up by spending millions on inspections with scant regard for the impact on schools of catchment areas, parental wealth or selection policy of other schools.
There is an obsession with assessment and inspection.
You don't fatten a pig by keep on weighing it and if the millions wasted by various Education secretaries had been invested in school buildings, equipment and teachers as opposed to administrators and worthless initiatives our system would have been in a much healthier position.

Going to stop here before I get properly going.

[Kendhni]

To be honest, OBF, education secretarys are not exact,y something I know much about ... And I have no intention of making something up ... What ultimately is important is that we turn out the best educated kids and that task ultimately falls on the teachers who work in a tough environment.

I personally think though that we should be teaching some better life skills such as financial management, first aid and more comprehensive IT.

[paultheeagle]

Who was that Education Secretary that 'stole' the free milk off all the little children a few years back....His / her name escapes me at the moment...must have been a Tory I think.

ObF...I was asking Ken to name a worse Education Secretary than Gove...I knew would know some and every one a right old plonker...

By the way...Ken got it right.

[oldbluefox]

I think you are absolutely right Ken. The trouble is successive governments have come up with new initiatives for improving the curriculum and have added them on to 'the list'. The trouble is you can't fit a quart into a pint pot.

In fairness schools do take it upon themselves to cover some of the life skills you mention, and some are included in the curriculum at both primary and secondary level. There is also some excellent IT work so it's not all bad news.

PTE, school milk was a perishing nuisance. Thank goodness somebody had the sense to do away with it!!

[Admiral of the Humber]

Mrs AOTH is the Head of a busy Primary School in Hull and she spends a ridiculous amount of time teaching "life skills" to some of her pupils....skills such as how to use a knife and fork. Whilst a huge number of parents in this country divorce themselves from their own responsibilities relying instead on teachers to do their job for them then any changes "in education" are a waste of time.

[Kendhni]

That AOTH is a major problem with the education system at the minute ... and similar to the milk issue (which was blown out of proportion) ... the education budget should be for the education of our children, not for teaching basic life skills or for providing other services that the parents should be supplying.

I can see at times why education budgets are stretched when you include free pre-school, free post-school, free extra-curricula activities and worst of all the fleet of taxis to drive 'poor' children to school (some of them little more than a few hundred yards but, because the service is available, then 'by god' some will make sure it is (ab)used). All of these things take money out of the core education budget.

[paultheeagle]

You have to live at least three miles from a special needs school or have learning difficulties to qualify for transport supplied by the local authority and then it is offered by the council and is budgeted separately from the Education budget....Children may be transported to school in a fleet of taxis in some areas of the country but not around here...Taxis are sometimes used yes, but they are rare and certainly not the norm....Most children are transported to school by bus / coach.


I see Gove has done a U turn on the changes to the GCSE's....Now there's a surprise...didn't see that coming did we.

[Kendhni]

My neighbour is a taxi driver and he loves the morning school run .. he gets minimum fare for basically doing runs that are as short as a quarter of a mile .. you can actually see the school from most of his pickups ... but it keeps him in employment ... sadly it is more wastage against the education budget.

It is always good to see a government minister listening to informed opinion ... however I suspect he is playing the old marketing trick ... when you want to increase the price by 5% but know that is going to cause complaints and uproar, what you do is announce that the price is rising by 10% and let the knee jerkers kick off and demand action, form their little groups, raise little petitions etc. and then you back track and say that you will only be increasing the price by 5% ... knee jerkers are then happy because they think they have had a victory but have not realised that they have been manipulated (the utility and transport companies are masters at that one).

In this case i notice that he has only stated that it may be a 'bridge too far' ... so he has not changed the goal, just how it will be implemented. Has he really lost or has he managed to get some change implemented .. remember there was massive resistance to ANY change (apart from tinkering) only a few years back. Personally, having read quite a bit about this over the last few days, I think he is on the right track trying to simplify the system and therefore reduce the load on teachers, freeing them up to do what they do best ... teach.

[paultheeagle]

Ken....As I say, in your area your local council may use taxi's willy nilly but not every where does..Most are taken to school by bus / coach a service provided by the Council for those children with special needs and learning difficulties and the cost of providing the service does not come out of the education budget.

I am really glad that Gove has changed his mind....Despite what some may think I do think this Government listen to people but there is surely something wrong with their method.....You don't announce a change in policy and then wait for the outcry...You talk to the people on the front line first, consultation I think you call it...That is the time to listen..not afterwards....They must know that...How can you take anything they say seriously, they change their minds so often.....

[Kendhni]

Good post, Paul
I agree with you about this changing of minds but in politics this method of 'doing business' seems to have been used more and more over the last few decades (and not just in the UK). I suppose it is like other things whereby they 'test the water' to see what opinion is likely to be ... I don;t like it either, because I believe, like yourself, that consultation should happen first by the professionals, and then put it out to public consultation and then form policy from that.

Sometimes the public is its own worst enemy .. sometimes the public has to accept unpopular decisions with short term disadvantages so that they get long term advantages ... we need to be led and the parties should not have to go back to the public for every little decision ... what worries me more is this growing 'policy by media' that all parties are using.

[Silver_Shiney]

It is absolutely essential that children are taught literacy and numeracy, but is it really necessary to have formal qualifications? Not everyone is academically minded (me, for one). I feel it is more important to have life skills - how to budget, how to look after yourself and your home. Now, while it is the responsibility of the parent to impart a lot of that knowledge, today's young parents (and some older ones, too) either never gained the knowledge themselves or can't be bothered to teach their kids, so subjects like Domestic Science in school are, IMHO, invaluable.

It's great that some kids aspire to be brain surgeons and such, but the world still needs hairdressers, street cleaners and shelf stackers.


Paul, the ES you are thinking of was Mrs T - "Maggie Thatcher MilK Snatcher"