Well did you ever

[Kendhni]

Didn't England break away from Rome to do its own thing?

Henry Viii realised the parameters of his religion was playing havoc with his love life so he changed it for one that accepted his lustful ways.

[Mo2013]

Mmmm, that'd be right - people doing their own thing to suit themselves.

[Boris+]

Hi Ken,

..... and there I was in all innocence quite firmly under the impression that our late lord Henry Vlll made the change in religion to accommodate his desire to establish peace and quiet in his realm by fathering a legitimate son and heir.

Em

[Silver_Shiney]

Didn't England break away from Rome to do its own thing? I am not learned about these things but I do know that people cannot agree on religion, and who/what is the one true God and each faith preaches their own supremacy in the grand scheme of things.

Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father but by me." Either he's lying or he's telling the truth. If the former, the whole thing deserves to be kicked into touch. If the latter.... shouldn't we sit up and take notice?

Christianity has also stolen from pagans.

Mo, what has Christianity stolen from pagans?

To my mind, the stories in the Bible are just that - stories which you either believe, or not. I cannot believe the stories.

That's the sort of rejection I can respect and understand.

Some people become obsessed with their faith to the exclusion of real people,

I want to become obsessed with my faith BECAUSE it involves real people!

and it frightens me terribly when people mention that God has 'spoken' to them.

God does sometimes speak to people, Mo, in varying ways. Most of the time, though, the claim is false: which of these two would you consider to be the most truthful in claiming that God spoke to him - a) a man who says God told him to build an orphanage but not to ask any man for money for it, or b) a man who says to his followers "let's go into the jungle and have a cyanide party"? "By their fruits you will know them" (Matt 7:20).

I also abhor the crusade of a religion that would rid the world of those who do not subscribe to their way of life. No I cannot be doing with it because to me religion is the most divisive element in the world.

Thank God Christianity is not a religion. It's a family, a relationship (and as in any family, people can and do screw up)

[Silver_Shiney]

Ken, you said the other day about contradictions in the Bible.

Aside from the ones that most skeptics quote from Google (conveniently overlooking the entries Google reports which refute the apparent contradictions), what did you have in mind?

[Mo2013]

Silver Shiney - as someone has said before me, Christians stole Christmas from paganism. Regarding God speaking - if you don't believe, then you have to deduce that the person is listening to themselves and only hearing what they want to hear. I have personal experience of someone who tried to create a business because they said God was guiding them, and that same person doesn't behave in a way I think they should but takes no responsibility for their actions, but is only guided and judged by God. Prayer and dedication to God is paramount in this person's life and everything else takes second place, in fact the order of importance in this person's life is God, kids, spouse. Events in the Bible stretch credibility to the maximum and it contradicts itself. As I have already said, you either blindly believe without question or you don't. But when a person's faith occupies an inordinate amount of importance/time in their life, in comparison to real people then it has become an obsession.

[Kendhni]

Ken, you said the other day about contradictions in the Bible.

Aside from the ones that most skeptics quote from Google (conveniently overlooking the entries Google reports which refute the apparent contradictions), what did you have in mind?

It is many years since I looked at this one, SS. It was actually a lay preacher (who I worked with) that I was discussing them with but he seemed to have a looser 'expectation' form the bible than other ministers etc. I have talked to .. .he accepted that there would be contradictions between the old and new testaments and even between books since he was willing to concede the bible as being the work of man (albeit with guidance from his god).

You make an interesting comment about Google. While there is much ill informed chitter chatter there are some very interesting articles and debates, claims and counter claims throughout google ... both sides putting forward their best foot and apporaching it from a learned point of view. I don;t think we should just dismiss stuff because it is found or refuted via Google ... Google is a good starting point.

[Delboy]

I do not regard myself as a religious person, although I had an extremely religious upbringing for the early years of my life.

For me all religions are built on a faith, and this is how faith is described in Wikipedia.

Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a god or gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion.

Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof, and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief". Some unbelievers of faith have argued that faith is opposed to reason.

In contrast, some believers of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence. This is exemplified by attitudes about the future, which (by definition) has not yet occurred.

It also states that Faith in Christianity is based on the work and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity declares not to be distinguished by faith, but by the object of its faith. Rather than being passive, faith leads to an active life aligned with the ideals and the example of the life of Jesus. It sees the mystery of God and his grace and seeks to know and become obedient to God. To a Christian, faith is not static but causes one to learn more of God and grow, and has its origin in God.

It also goes on to explain how faith is also applied to other religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

As for me personally, I have a faith that this life is not the end, only time will tell if I am correct, if I am not, I will not be around to worry about it.
I believe there are two forces in life, one is for good, some would define that as God, the other for evil and some would define that as the Devil.
I just try to lead my life for good, although being human I don't always succeed.

[Silver_Shiney]

Silver Shiney - as someone has said before me, Christians stole Christmas from paganism. Regarding God speaking - if you don't believe, then you have to deduce that the person is listening to themselves and only hearing what they want to hear. I have personal experience of someone who tried to create a business because they said God was guiding them, and that same person doesn't behave in a way I think they should but takes no responsibility for their actions, but is only guided and judged by God. Prayer and dedication to God is paramount in this person's life and everything else takes second place, in fact the order of importance in this person's life is God, kids, spouse. Events in the Bible stretch credibility to the maximum and it contradicts itself. As I have already said, you either blindly believe without question or you don't. But when a person's faith occupies an inordinate amount of importance/time in their life, in comparison to real people then it has become an obsession.

Mo, it's not really true to say that Christians stole Christmas from pagans, now is it? Please read http://www.livescience.com/25779-christ ... anism.html. I do not really know why that time of year was chosen (bearing in mind that churches in different countries celebrate on different dates) as it is clear from the Bible that the Nativity was not in December but, more likely, September/October.

With respect, you can deduce what you like, the fact remains that people do hear from God. Regarding the person you cite, as I said, you will know them by the way they behave.

While it is true that worshipping God is paramount, in doing so He enriches our relationship with family and others. At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I used to climb over homeless people dossing down in the doorway to the office I worked in. I used to really despise them (not a very loving attitude, was it?) God put a picture in my mind and I saw my caravan outside the office giving hot soup to the homeless. Two months later, my caravan was 100 yards down the road from the office, feeding the homeless. A growing "obsession", as you call it, with God led to a ministry which, under new leadership, has now been going on for over 15 years, showing love and compassion for the needy.

I asked Ken to cite some examples of biblical contradiction, before you posted your reply. That was your opportunity to cite an example or two yourself but, instead, you chose to just make the typical claim that there are contradictions without making any effort to back the claim up. As the usual examples given by skeptics, that you'll find when Googling, have been more than adequately refuted by people far better then I'll ever be, I should be grateful for some real examples of biblical contradiction.

I also asked you a question, which you didn't answer. It would be really interesting to know your views on it.

You say events in the Bible stretch credibility to the maximum. I assume you are referring to miracles?

Kind regards

Alan

[Silver_Shiney]

I do not regard myself as a religious person, although I had an extremely religious upbringing for the early years of my life.

For me all religions are built on a faith, and this is how faith is described in Wikipedia.

Depending on the religion, faith is belief in a god or gods or in the doctrines or teachings of the religion.

Informal usage of faith can be quite broad, including trust or belief without proof, and "faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief". Some unbelievers of faith have argued that faith is opposed to reason.

In contrast, some believers of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence. This is exemplified by attitudes about the future, which (by definition) has not yet occurred.

It also states that Faith in Christianity is based on the work and teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity declares not to be distinguished by faith, but by the object of its faith. Rather than being passive, faith leads to an active life aligned with the ideals and the example of the life of Jesus. It sees the mystery of God and his grace and seeks to know and become obedient to God. To a Christian, faith is not static but causes one to learn more of God and grow, and has its origin in God.

It also goes on to explain how faith is also applied to other religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

As for me personally, I have a faith that this life is not the end, only time will tell if I am correct, if I am not, I will not be around to worry about it.
I believe there are two forces in life, one is for good, some would define that as God, the other for evil and some would define that as the Devil.
I just try to lead my life for good, although being human I don't always succeed.

Hi Dellboy

Thank you for your views. Your statement regarding faith in Christianity seems pretty spot on.

Concerning "trust or belief without proof", I respectfully suggest that that doesn't apply to Christianity. The statement certainly meets the description of the atheist and evolutionist religions, which both hold a trust or belief that there is no God. There is ample proof of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, so my faith in him is based on solid evidence. It is that which gives me faith that his promises for the future can be relied on (Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."). We are exhorted to reason things through, not to have a blind faith, to test all things.

Salvation comes through faith, not works. Living your life for good just won't cut it, at the end of the day. You say you don't always succeed. Join the club!

Kind regards

Alan

[Silver_Shiney]

Ken, you said the other day about contradictions in the Bible.

Aside from the ones that most skeptics quote from Google (conveniently overlooking the entries Google reports which refute the apparent contradictions), what did you have in mind?

It is many years since I looked at this one, SS. It was actually a lay preacher (who I worked with) that I was discussing them with but he seemed to have a looser 'expectation' form the bible than other ministers etc. I have talked to .. .he accepted that there would be contradictions between the old and new testaments and even between books since he was willing to concede the bible as being the work of man (albeit with guidance from his god).

You make an interesting comment about Google. While there is much ill informed chitter chatter there are some very interesting articles and debates, claims and counter claims throughout google ... both sides putting forward their best foot and apporaching it from a learned point of view. I don;t think we should just dismiss stuff because it is found or refuted via Google ... Google is a good starting point.

Thanks, Ken. I'm afraid liberal preachers like your friend have weakened the Church and caused it to lose credibility. On the other hand, those preachers to stick to the Bible grow congregations and the Church is, despite what you read or see in the news, expanding.

I merely cite Google as it would be easier for you to look stuff up there than go out and buy the relevant publications. You say that we should dismiss stuff because it is found or refuted via Google - in my experience, that only holds true for stuff that is contrary to Christianity. Anything "for" is immediately relegated to the trash can by the majority, who won't think the matter through.

Regards

Alan

PS any development on the dog front?

[Silver_Shiney]

Sorry, that should be "You say that we should not dismiss stuff because"

[Kendhni]

You say that we should [not] dismiss stuff because it is found or refuted via Google - in my experience, that only holds true for stuff that is contrary to Christianity. Anything "for" is immediately relegated to the trash can by the majority, who won't think the matter through.

Not quite, I believe google provides access to a fantastic resource of knowledge, however what one often sees is the 'google warrior' will search specifically for something to back up their point ... rather than searching for information about their point (if you see what I mean). I have always considered the most important part of any debate or discussion is to try to understand both sides and then form conclusions.

Those conclusions will be formed based on the 'weighting' one gives to many possible aspects. I personally give the highest weighting to logic and peer reviewed empirical repeatable scientific evidence ... others will give priorities to other attributes and come to different conclusions. I always give lowest priority to 'emotional' arguments since I consider them to be arguments born out of last ditch desperation.

That is why I find it hard to answer your query about specific contradictions .. I could easily do a quick google and find many .. similarly I could do a quick google and find rebuttals to those ... both of which would have their pros and cons. I would however disagree that my work colleague gave the church a bad name .. I actually found talking to him very refreshing in that he had an open mind and accepted that there is no such thing as perfection in anything that man does.

[Silver_Shiney]

Not quite, I believe google provides access to a fantastic resource of knowledge, however what one often sees is the 'google warrior' will search specifically for something to back up their point ... rather than searching for information about their point (if you see what I mean). I have always considered the most important part of any debate or discussion is to try to understand both sides and then form conclusions.

I'm glad to kear it, Ken. You're the first person I've engaged with who hold that view - the others all latch on to something they pick up at the top of Google and quote that as though it's the "be all and end all" without digging deeper.

[Kendhni]

PS: Tess is doing quite well, but Buffy not so well. They have opted out of the pacemaker for her because she has a second under lying congenital heart condition that they are trying to treat with beta blockers .. the second issue is that they have nowhere to put the battery for the pacemaker (because she is so lean .. normally they embed it in fat, but Buffy doesn't have any). She has recently been put on fluid tablets to clear her lungs since she has now developed the dreaded 'cough' (a side effect of a heart condition in a dog). We have a vets appointment again at the end of the week and hopefully may hear more.

[Mo2013]

Silver Shiney, firstly I have not Googled anything, but have read various books - Erich Von Daniken - and I have yet to read a book called 'God is not Great' and have watched various TV programmes. I understand that Jesus was born in October and it seems that a pagan festival in December was 'hijacked' to serve as Jesus' birthday. But be that as it may, the Bible does not stand up to logical and scientific examination, and so you either have a blind faith in it and the existence of God - or not. I shall not post further on this thread because you will never convince me on the existence of God, and I in turn am not going to beat my head against a brick wall.

[Silver_Shiney]

Silver Shiney, firstly I have not Googled anything, but have read various books - Erich Von Daniken - and I have yet to read a book called 'God is not Great' and have watched various TV programmes. I understand that Jesus was born in October and it seems that a pagan festival in December was 'hijacked' to serve as Jesus' birthday. But be that as it may, the Bible does not stand up to logical and scientific examination, and so you either have a blind faith in it and the existence of God - or not. I shall not post further on this thread because you will never convince me on the existence of God, and I in turn am not going to beat my head against a brick wall.

Erich Von Daniken... wasn't he certified??

The Bible is well able to stand up to any examination and, indeed, various scientific disciplines are confirming a lot of what is written. My faith is not blind, and is based on solid evidence. Please see my reply to Delboy.

What you mean is, you don't want to be convinced about the existence of God. That is your privilege and I accept that.

[Silver_Shiney]

Thanks, Ken. Pleased to hear about Tess, but not so re Buffy. I'll be thinking of you and Julie during this difficult time.

Kind regards

Alan

[gfwgfw]

By Heck

Has this thread gone slightly "Off Topic"

Kindly

[Manoverboard]

I think the Bible, as one example, was mentioned by Mo2013 in her posting #15 so what took you so long Giant given that yours is post #69 ... I fear you may may have neglected your own Topic

[Dark Knight]

SS
once again you have shown how to debate and how not to belittle or insult

you should give lessons

[gfwgfw]

DN

And our esteemed moderator is steering the ship

[Dark Knight]

gfw
an impressive display from two seasoned debators

[Manoverboard]

DN

And our esteemed moderator is steering the ship

Not at all Giant, it was was due to Evolution or the Will of the Lord ... Romig's posting #2 said it could be a pants Topic but it proved to be far from that as things turned out.

[gfwgfw]

gfw
an impressive display from two seasoned debators

Bleeden Heck DN

I misread your astute observation

Debators looked a tad like a rude word on my calor gas driven 'puter

Hee Hee