EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[towny44]

I know there is at least 12 months to go before we get to vote but I wondered what forum members current thoughts were, and whether they had made up their minds.
Back in 1975 I voted to stay in, mainly because I thought I was voting for a free trade association which, from my own commercial experience seemed the best choice for the UK. However since the Eurozone was established it now seems increasingly like a federal union of states governed by an unnaccountable bureaucracy in Brussels. Whilst I am a little uncertain how the UK will cope with independence, I believe that it has to be better than gradually being sucked into the Euro whirlpool, which I suspect we would have to agree to if we stayed in the EU.

[Quizzical Bob]

Stay in, absolutely, definitely. Being outside would cost us the same amount in order to get access to the European markets and we would also have to accept the free movement of labour. It would be utter madness to distance ourselves from this enormous market which is right on our doorstep. Don't for a moment think up that it's easy to export to the rest of the world. As it is now we know what we have. Outside can only be worse and probably a lot worse.

[oldbluefox]

I voted to join The Common Market and would do the same again. I did not vote to be ruled or dictated to by Europe. I have neither read nor seen anything which suggests I should change my mind.

[Silver_Shiney]

I'm with you, John.

[towny44]

I'm with you, John.

Strange the current vote is 4-0 to leave and yet the replies suggest 2-2???

[anniec]

And I'm with John and OBF. Sorry, Bob, I usually agree with your posts!

[anniec]

I'm with you, John.

Strange the current vote is 4-0 to leave and yet the replies suggest 2-2???

I make it 3-1. Now that I've posted, it's 4-1?

[towny44]

I'm with you, John.

Strange the current vote is 4-0 to leave and yet the replies suggest 2-2???

I make it 3-1. Now that I've posted, it's 4-1?

My mistake I misread Foxy's post, I thought he was voting to stay in, I missed his clever nuance.

[barney]

With the staus quo not being an option, the referendum is really about leaving the EU or even more political intergration.

The simple fact that the European Court has the implicit right to over rule any existing British legislation tells me that it's time to say goodbye.

I'll tell you where I am !

I'm out.

[Quizzical Bob]

With the staus quo not being an option, the referendum is really about leaving the EU or even more political intergration.

The simple fact that the European Court has the implicit right to over rule any existing British legislation tells me that it's time to say goodbye.

I'll tell you where I am !

I'm out.

Which one?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.

[Quizzical Bob]

And I'm with John and OBF. Sorry, Bob, I usually agree with your posts!

Then God help us all. It's the children I feel sorry for.

[emjay45]

We aren't in the EU over here and therefore don't get a vote. It seems unfair because of course as a Crown Dependency we are naturally affected by the EU. I think we as 'comeovers' may still be allowed to vote, it depends on whether we've been here too long, I'm going to check. My OH wants to stay in for the same reasons as QB and I want to vote out so we cancel each other out really. Do I get a vote on here??

[david63]

Until we know what the "renegotiated" terms are it is difficult to know which way to go.

From the trade perspective I believe that leaving the EU would be a disaster for this country - certainly in short/medium term, but I do not approve of the Germans taking over Europe via the "back door" - just because they failed 70 years ago. Oh - and I can do without the constant meddling and interfering from Brussels.

[Manoverboard]

It seemed such a good idea at the time but I had no idea that we would become an ineffective ' do as you are told ' half arsed Country who would be dictated to by hoards of left wing no hopers from Brussels and beyond. Empire building of the worst kind is EuroLand .... but there again would I really prefer to replace a comfortable life style for a cost of living as high as Norway and chums.

A difficult choice but I believe that I will ultimately vote to stay in ... I think so anyway.

[barney]

With the staus quo not being an option, the referendum is really about leaving the EU or even more political intergration.

The simple fact that the European Court has the implicit right to over rule any existing British legislation tells me that it's time to say goodbye.

I'll tell you where I am !

I'm out.

Which one?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.

I never mentioned the ECHR.
I'm talking about the European Court of justice

If you did your research, you'd realise that they can ultimately over rule any legislation from any member country.

An example could be, Cameron negotiates his four year benefit rule.
It's passed by Parliament and into legislation.
Then, an EU citizen appeals to the European Court claiming discrimination.
The EU court over rules our Parliament and the legislation is overturned

We are sleep walking into the United States of Europe
If you're happy with that, then fine, but I'm not.

We have existed as a country since the 10th century.
The EU is a relatively new phenomena in the grand scheme of things.
I'm sure we'll be alright on our own.
Personally, I believe that the EU has held us back for years

[Onelife]

Whichever way we vote we are going to need a Government that is capable of overseeing such changes.. From what l have witnessed this past 6 years with this crap government you can be sure its gonna end up in tears whichever way we vote

Once Cameron realise that he ain't getting nowt worth having out of the EU club then he will kick start his propaganda scaremongering campaign warning us about what will happen should we decide to leave the EU....well I'm prepared for it to get a whole lot worse if it eventually means we can stand on our own two feet again. The transition period will be unpleasant but it can be made a whole lot easier if we start preparing for it now. Our exit out of the EU should be 'stealthily' planned with exit time scales that allow us to forge better trading conditions within and outside of our current markets.

[Quizzical Bob]

With the staus quo not being an option, the referendum is really about leaving the EU or even more political intergration.

The simple fact that the European Court has the implicit right to over rule any existing British legislation tells me that it's time to say goodbye.

I'll tell you where I am !

I'm out.

Which one?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.

I never mentioned the ECHR.
I'm talking about the European Court of justice

If you did your research, you'd realise that they can ultimately over rule any legislation from any member country.

An example could be, Cameron negotiates his four year benefit rule.
It's passed by Parliament and into legislation.
Then, an EU citizen appeals to the European Court claiming discrimination.
The EU court over rules our Parliament and the legislation is overturned

We are sleep walking into the United States of Europe
If you're happy with that, then fine, but I'm not.

We have existed as a country since the 10th century.
The EU is a relatively new phenomena in the grand scheme of things.
I'm sure we'll be alright on our own.
Personally, I believe that the EU has held us back for years

Yes Barney, I know all about the various courts but many don't and you only mentioned the 'European Court' which was not specific. As for being 'alright on our own' I assume that you've never had to export any products? If we want to continue to trade with the EU we would need to pay an accession fee, which is about the same as we contribute now, and continue to abide by the European Court of Justice. Just hoping for the best is not going to work.

[qbman1]

I agree with the Smurfmeister that we don't have enough specific info to make a considered judgement at the moment so I reckon the poll is a bit previous.

[barney]

"If we want to continue to trade with the EU we would need to pay an accession fee, which is about the same as we contribute now, and continue to abide by the European Court of Justice".
I often hear this Quizbob, but nobody can actually state that this is the truth because up to now, no country has ever left.
So in reality, no one knows.

We are not Norway or Switzerland.
We are a massive economy in world terms and a massive export market for Continental companies.
My feeling is that commerce wise, very little will change, whether we are in or out.

We'll buy their stuff, and they'll buy ours.
That's they way it has always worked and always will.
It's not in their interest to be protectionists.

Can you imagine Merkel having to explain that to the Chairman of BMW.

Once the 'machine' kicks in and the the real propaganda starts, the STAY vote will gain momentum due to the fear factor, but for my take, and I have studied it greatly, I cannot see any benefit to this country with further political integration.
As I stated initially, the status quo is not on the table.
It's out, or further in.

I think that we owe it to future generations not to make the same mistake as was made back in the seventies.
The UK joined a Common Market not a Federal Europe

[Silver_Shiney]

"If we want to continue to trade with the EU we would need to pay an accession fee, which is about the same as we contribute now, and continue to abide by the European Court of Justice".
I often hear this Quizbob, but nobody can actually state that this is the truth because up to now, no country has ever left.
So in reality, no one knows.

We are not Norway or Switzerland.
We are a massive economy in world terms and a massive export market for Continental companies.
My feeling is that commerce wise, very little will change, whether we are in or out.

We'll buy their stuff, and they'll buy ours.
That's they way it has always worked and always will.
It's not in their interest to be protectionists.

Can you imagine Merkel having to explain that to the Chairman of BMW.

Once the 'machine' kicks in and the the real propaganda starts, the STAY vote will gain momentum due to the fear factor, but for my take, and I have studied it greatly, I cannot see any benefit to this country with further political integration.
As I stated initially, the status quo is not on the table.
It's out, or further in.

I think that we owe it to future generations not to make the same mistake as was made back in the seventies.
The UK joined a Common Market not a Federal Europe

If people want to buy our stuff, they'll do so regardless. EU countries will still want to sell their stuff to us, irrespective of whether we are part of this evil organisation or not.

[Manoverboard]

Do I get a vote on here??

Indeed you do

I presently have a problem with the ' No ' voters.

There seems to be an assumption thus far that the UK has some God given right to sell products to the EU, the figures are high at the moment but only because there are a number of large manufacturers who are based in our part of the EU selling to the other parts of the EU ... but what happens when, NOT if, these companies pull out of the UK to set up elsewhere within the EU ?

We would then have nothing of high volume ( equates to greater unemployment ) that will be competitive to sell, buying stuff is not good either because the prices will have to rise to offset the loss of revenue to cover the loss of the stuff we used to sell.

[Silver_Shiney]

I understand what you are saying, Moby, but, for my part at least, I don't believe we have a "God-given right" to sell to the EU. However, the fact that we do currently sell to other member states shows that there is a demand for those products and, if the manufacturers, or service providers stay in the UK, I don't see that that demand would diminish. Those companies that do leave the UK are already doing so to countries outside the EU where labour costs are cheaper - Dyson is a prime example.

Anyway, who is to say that those companies WOULD pull out of the UK to relocate elsewhere in Europe?

[allatc]

Companies in the EU will want to trade with a non-EU UK so deals will be done to enable trading to continue in both directions.

And there are other markets beside the EU

[barney]

Nick Clegg said that leaving the EU would cost us a million jobs !

When asked where these jobs were, that 100% relied on being in the EU, he didn't have a scooby.

Scaremongering of the highest order and it will unfortunately, in the end, be successful.

Expect to be bombarded with info, much of which is rubbish, as were the Scots

[towny44]

Yes Barney, I know all about the various courts but many don't and you only mentioned the 'European Court' which was not specific. As for being 'alright on our own' I assume that you've never had to export any products? If we want to continue to trade with the EU we would need to pay an accession fee, which is about the same as we contribute now, and continue to abide by the European Court of Justice. Just hoping for the best is not going to work.

QB, Check out the statistics for trade between the UK and EU.

You will find that we currently run a deficit of £72bn/pa (2014), and that the EU exports £219bn/pa to the UK, of which Germany accounts for £60bn/pa of imports with a £29bn/pa surplus.

Now amed with this info I reckon that even I could negotiate a hell of a better accession fee to remain in the EU free trade zone than we currently pay. This is one occasion when the dire UK trade deficit would be a major benefit in any Brexit negotiation.

I am equally not convinced that we would be bound by any current EU court of justice rulings, although I can imagine that the Stay In campaign will endevour to spread the same sort of unfounded rumours that you are spreading.

IMHO faced with the above stats. no German Govt. can afford not to accede to any Brexit terms Cameron proposes, assuming we vote to leave, in which case a Leave Vote should result in a major boost to the UK economy, rather than the grim forecasts you and the Stay In group keep highlighting.