EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[ITWA Travel Writer]

Yes John it was my vote to stay in.

I also decided to save my Euros this time and not cash them back in just in case yon Canadian wants to devalue the pound.

[towny44]

Yes John it was my vote to stay in.

I also decided to save my Euros this time and not cash them back in just in case yon Canadian wants to devalue the pound.

Touché.

[gravy1955]

I didn't want us to go in to it originally and voted no in 1975. The development of The Common Market/EEC/EC ( as its title changes over the years as its real political agenda emerges) over the past 45 years since then has only reinforced my original conviction and that the sooner we are out of it the better and regain our sovereignty and control over our own borders.So , as they say in Dragons' Den, "I'm out!"

[Silver_Shiney]

I didn't want us to go in to it originally and voted no in 1975. The development of The Common Market/EEC/EC ( as its title changes over the years as its real political agenda emerges) over the past 45 years since then has only reinforced my original conviction and that the sooner we are out of it the better and regain our sovereignty and control over our own borders.So , as they say in Dragons' Den, "I'm out!"

[barney]

I did a simple pro's and con's list

The pro's list was remarkably short.

I have read as much as I can to find about the facts of the argument but it's virtually impossible to find anything without the author putting their 'slant' on it.

The Stay campaign seems to be overwhelmingly negative about what would potentially happen should we leave, but nothing said about the benefits of staying.
I find this strange.
They have the stats and figures to hand about why it would be good to stay, but seem reluctant to use them to back up their argument.

Some seem to think it's all about the money, but for my take, it's more than that.

We will be asked to make a decision that will barely affect us in our lifetimes.
It will affect our children and grandchildren far more.

For my part, I'm, not anti immigration, I'm anti uncontrolled immigration.
I'm not anti Europe, I'm anti EU control over our laws.

It's a bit like joining a club many years ago and over the years, it has morphed into something that you no longer really like.
So, the easiest thing to do is resign.

[Quizzical Bob]

I find the number and n favour of leaving deeply depressing and I fear for the future of our country. I have no fear of working with other nations, I have travelled widely within them and I speak several of their languages. I have worked with several of them and have sat on international committees. I see no need to list the benefits of membership because to me they are self-evident. We know what we have now but we have no idea what we would be letting ourselves into. I look at the US and I see what can be achieved when trade barriers are removed and everybody works to a common currency. It's not a case of foreigners telling us what to do, we are ourselves part of that decision making. Any decisions taken are made with our involvement and are for the benefit of all of us. If you all want to retreat to an obscure offshore island with fading influence then that is your choice, but don't say you weren't warned. You will have missed out on a great opportunity and can only watch in sadness as the rest of the world goes sailing off leaving us behind.

[barney]

You've sort of defeated your own argument with that statement

More like the rest of the world goes sailing off and leaves the ailing, cumbersome EU behind.

[Quizzical Bob]

You've sort of defeated your own argument with that statement

How so???

[barney]

"It's not a case of foreigners telling us what to do, we are ourselves part of that decision making. Any decisions taken are made with our involvement and are for the benefit of all of us."

I can't remember us having a choice about Germany welcoming a million Syrian refugees who will all, after due process have full access to the UK and all it has to offer.

Oh, wait I hear you say, they won't want to come here.
As did not the nearly one million Poles and other Eastern Europeans who 'didn't want to come here' with Germany on their doorstep.

Not to mention the EU bribe of access to the EU for Turkish citizens in return for border controls.
Were we part of that decision making?

I could go on and on with actual examples but you are firmly entrenched in your beliefs, so we'll let it go.

As I said earlier, I'm certainly not anti foreigner or anti immigration, but feel we need some control over our own destiny.

[Quizzical Bob]

"It's not a case of foreigners telling us what to do, we are ourselves part of that decision making. Any decisions taken are made with our involvement and are for the benefit of all of us."

I can't remember us having a choice about Germany welcoming a million Syrian refugees who will all, after due process have full access to the UK and all it has to offer.

Oh, wait I hear you say, they won't want to come here.
As did not the nearly one million Poles and other Eastern Europeans who 'didn't want to come here' with Germany on their doorstep.

Not to mention the EU bribe of access to the EU for Turkish citizens in return for border controls.
Were we part of that decision making?

I could go on and on with actual examples but you are firmly entrenched in your beliefs, so we'll let it go.

As I said earlier, I'm certainly not anti foreigner or anti immigration, but feel we need some control over our own destiny.

If it's all about immigration then I fear you are going to be disappointed by leaving the EU. I am as frustrated as anyone else by the government's failure to keep net immigration down to manageable numbers, but at the moment there are hundreds of thousands arriving annually from non-EU countries and nothing is being done to reduce that. If we were to leave then the EU would just become another part of the rest of the world and I cannot see any hope that the doors will be closed. We are becoming a low-wage overcrowded society with no hope of returning to a sensible balance but I don't blame the EU for that. Just as many seem to be coming from the rest of the world and the EU figures highly amongst the numbers because of its proximity. I cannot see this situation ending.

[ITWA Travel Writer]

You've sort of defeated your own argument with that statement

More like the rest of the world goes sailing off and leaves the ailing, cumbersome EU behind.

Talking about the pot calling the kettle black!!

No one within the EU would say that the European Union was faultless. It is well acknowledged that there are numerous problems; numerous differences; numerous imbalances and a multitude of possible resolutions and solutions.

However, you must ask yourself, is the amalgamation of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland often titled “GB” any different from the grouping we call the “EU”? within GB we have different laws and legal bases. Different educational criteria, standards and expectations. Different histories and traditions. Different languages. So is little Britain any different than the European Union?

The one obvious lesson we must take from space exploration is that this very, very, very little “Earth Analog Planet” we call home, with its multitude of variations and differences within its dominant life form, requires to be brought together and not driven asunder!

Many keep saying that the answer to all wars and conflicts is to talk together. To combine and resolve issues. If this is good enough reason for the resolution of conflict, then it must surly make sense to continue to group together more and more, adding country after country until all the countries of our world are united as one.

[towny44]

I am quite happy to cooperate with other countries to improve society in general. I do not really feel threatened by immigration, however I do worry about how our current services will cope with the recent infux, schools, hospitals and transport services are under great pressure and needing extra funding.
Then what happens if our economy slows down, when recent immigrants may prefer to return home, leaving such services under utilised; or worse they decide to stay and put extra pressure on the benefits system.
None of the above, in fact my main concerns are the Euro where I feel we will never want to join, but I fear we will become increasingly disadvantaged against eurozone countries.
Of even more concern is the drive for closer political union, where again I doubt we will want to participate in, but the EU legislation will want to tie us into a closer federal structure.
As regards trade I cannot believe that in 2015 the EU would try to create an unnacceptable free trade agreement if we were to leave.
So unlike Qbob I do not fear becoming isolated by leaving, more likely I expect that the UK will become much stronger by shaking free of the EU bonds, and I expect Scotland to see that remaining in UK is far more likely to be in their best interests because they really are too small to go it alone.

[Quizzical Bob]

I am quite happy to cooperate with other countries to improve society in general. I do not really feel threatened by immigration, however I do worry about how our current services will cope with the recent infux, schools, hospitals and transport services are under great pressure and needing extra funding.
Then what happens if our economy slows down, when recent immigrants may prefer to return home, leaving such services under utilised; or worse they decide to stay and put extra pressure on the benefits system.
None of the above, in fact my main concerns are the Euro where I feel we will never want to join, but I fear we will become increasingly disadvantaged against eurozone countries.
Of even more concern is the drive for closer political union, where again I doubt we will want to participate in, but the EU legislation will want to tie us into a closer federal structure.
As regards trade I cannot believe that in 2015 the EU would try to create an unnacceptable free trade agreement if we were to leave.
So unlike Qbob I do not fear becoming isolated by leaving, more likely I expect that the UK will become much stronger by shaking free of the EU bonds, and I expect Scotland to see that remaining in UK is far more likely to be in their best interests because they really are too small to go it alone.

Hmm, if we were to leave I can only see all the companies in France, Germany, Italy and Spain jumping with glee and demanding protectionist tariffs. Make no mistake, we would have to pay a large access fee if we wanted to continue trading and there would be big strings attached.

[Quizzical Bob]

On another point, ITWA, don't you think that if Britain voted to leave then Ms Sturgeon and her friends would demand another referendum on Scotland's independence, one which she might very well win. I could then see Scotland joining Ireland as a fully paid-up member of the EU and Euro.

I might almost be jealous

[oldbluefox]

Make no mistake, we would have to pay a large access fee if we wanted to continue trading and there would be big strings attached.

Isn't that what we already have?

[towny44]

[uote="towny44"]
Hmm, if we were to leave I can only see all the companies in France, Germany, Italy and Spain jumping with glee and demanding protectionist tariffs. Make no mistake, we would have to pay a large access fee if we wanted to continue trading and there would be big strings attached.

Qbob, we are a large net importer from the EU, so they will be more desparate to retain their export markets without having a tariff imposed, in which case I doubt any EU country will be jumping with joy at a Brexit. However I am sure our govt. will be happy to allow them free access for their goods as long as its reciprocated.

[Silver_Shiney]

I expect that the UK will become much stronger by shaking free of the EU bonds, and I expect Scotland to see that remaining in UK is far more likely to be in their best interests because they really are too small to go it alone.

I thoroughly agree

[Quizzical Bob]

[uote="towny44"]
Hmm, if we were to leave I can only see all the companies in France, Germany, Italy and Spain jumping with glee and demanding protectionist tariffs. Make no mistake, we would have to pay a large access fee if we wanted to continue trading and there would be big strings attached.

Qbob, we are a large net importer from the EU, so they will be more desparate to retain their export markets without having a tariff imposed, in which case I doubt any EU country will be jumping with joy at a Brexit. However I am sure our govt. will be happy to allow them free access for their goods as long as its reciprocated.

There is zero chance of getting away with no tariffs or access fee.

[towny44]

Qbob, we are a large net importer from the EU, so they will be more desparate to retain their export markets without having a tariff imposed, in which case I doubt any EU country will be jumping with joy at a Brexit. However I am sure our govt. will be happy to allow them free access for their goods as long as its reciprocated.

There is zero chance of getting away with no tariffs or access fee.

Probably not but I doubt it will be anywhere near as onerous as you seem to expect.

[towny44]

One additional point re the EU, my nephew and his French wife visited us yesterday, despite EU regulations stating that EU citizens domiciled in another EU country should have voting rights in local and Eurpean elections he has never been allowed to vote, despite having lived and worked France for over 20 years.
Just one more reason why we, who seem to obey every EU rule, should vote to leave.

[Stephen]

I say leave.

[oldbluefox]

I wonder if we would not have all been flooded out so much had we not adopted the European Water Framework Directive in 2000 which prevents dredging of our rivers and water courses..................
To me, yet another barmy, interfering directive from our masters in the EU. I wonder how Holland manages to avoid the devastation we suffer or do they still manage their water courses despite what the EU says?

[barney]

Quote from Dr David Owen - ex Foreign Secretary

"It is the weak nerve centre of a flabby semi-state, with almost defenceless frontiers, where humanitarian rhetoric masks spinelessness"

Pretty hard to argue against that. He's bang on.

[oldbluefox]

Does he mean we'll beat Bournemouth at the weekend?

[Manoverboard]

Coming from the likes of David Owen it is deffo something worth worrying about.