EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[towny44]

Funny the EU said we couldn't close our borders but now other countries are struggling it seems okay.

Just one of many reasons why the UK should be in charge of the EU, we seem to find the true policy path far sooner than the less intelligent politicians of the rest of europe. Unfortunately thats a non starter thats why I will vote to leave.

[Silver_Shiney]

This Schengen (sic?) agreement was a bad, bad move. The day it is scrapped cannot come to soon

[Quizzical Bob]

I note a survey today that says support for staying in the EU is waning among Financial Directors at FT 100 companies.

It wouldn't make much difference to them, they are already international organisations on the whole and they have the resources to manage all the problems of international trade. It's the FTSE250 you need, or more importantly the SMEs since its the businesses with the smaller turnovers that are more affected by barriers to trade.

[barney]

TTIP is a good enough reason to exit on it's own.

The end to state controlled monopolies.

Sounds good until you realise that it means our NHS.

Secret deals in darkened rooms doesn't seem much like democracy to me.

QB, it's not 'all about the money' and the staus quo is not an option.

It's either in deeper or out

There is much, much more at stake here.

[oldbluefox]

It wouldn't make much difference to them, they are already international organisations on the whole and they have the resources to manage all the problems of international trade. It's the FTSE250 you need, or more importantly the SMEs since its the businesses with the smaller turnovers that are more affected by barriers to trade.

Your concerns seem to focus on the business/trading element of the EU, an agreement which we initially signed up to. Unfortunately the EU has developed into something much more than a trading partnership and it is for that reason I will be voting to leave. I voted to join the Common Market, not a federal Europe.

[Quizzical Bob]

It's ok for those who have a comfortable, assured income to say 'it's not all about the money' but for those who will lose out it is the most important thing in their lives.

[Dark Knight]

as is usual on here, is the politics of envy and greed that steers the discussion,with people only looking as far as their own bank accounts and their small lives and even smaller ambitions
it is a shame that the bigger picture is beyond the wit of the small businessman and the final salary pensioners.

[towny44]

I note a survey today that says support for staying in the EU is waning among Financial Directors at FT 100 companies.

It wouldn't make much difference to them, they are already international organisations on the whole and they have the resources to manage all the problems of international trade. It's the FTSE250 you need, or more importantly the SMEs since its the businesses with the smaller turnovers that are more affected by barriers to trade.

That's a srange comment Qbob, the bigger the business the more exports/imports they make and a trade barrier would hurt them more.
Surely you are not being selective again in picking which comments to use and which to ignore?

[towny44]

as is usual on here, is the politics of envy and greed that steers the discussion,with people only looking as far as their own bank accounts and their small lives and even smaller ambitions
it is a shame that the bigger picture is beyond the wit of the small businessman and the final salary pensioners.

A rather typical post from you DK, but as usual it doesn't really help the discussion along.
Do you believe all these small minded businessmen and final salary pensioners are in favour of the EU or not, in fact which side of the divide are you on?
And just what is the bigger picture?

[barney]

The bigger picture is simply more integration into the United States of Europe or an exit and stand alone as a Sovereign Nation.

I've got no idea what Batty was on about. He's obviously been on the gin!

[Dark Knight]

none of you business Townny to be honest

if you cant see the bigger picture and can only see as far as your own wallet or petty ambitions , then you don't deserve to be given a vote, we can see all the way through this thread that people are arguing for the good of themselves alone and not the good of the United Kingdom
if we leave than what are the ramifications for the whole nation, not just QB's little business? would we suffer as much as he thinks? would we flourish in a true free market, what about immigration or net migration, what about our service industries? what about import tariffs and export tariffs? can we rely on our Neighbours once we leave? or are we going to be a tiny nation with a big voice but nothing else?
if we stay what are the ramifications for the nation, as we become part of the federal republic of Europe and we are ruled by Brussels or Germany, taxes imposed centrally based on GDP? more of our laws made and implemented by Brussels, increased immigration, increased net migration, not enough housing to support the population not enough infrastructure to maintain the population , even without immigration

enough to ponder if you get past your own tiny life, don't you think ?

[barney]

I beg to differ DK

In or out won't make the slightest difference to my life whatsoever (and many others of our age, I suspect) but I do have kids who will be affected.

I agree that it is a complex issue and have studied it in great depth from all angles.

My conclusion remains the same

Cheers for your input

[towny44]

none of you business Townny to be honest

if you cant see the bigger picture and can only see as far as your own wallet or petty ambitions , then you don't deserve to be given a vote, we can see all the way through this thread that people are arguing for the good of themselves alone and not the good of the United Kingdom
if we leave than what are the ramifications for the whole nation, not just QB's little business? would we suffer as much as he thinks? would we flourish in a true free market, what about immigration or net migration, what about our service industries? what about import tariffs and export tariffs? can we rely on our Neighbours once we leave? or are we going to be a tiny nation with a big voice but nothing else?
if we stay what are the ramifications for the nation, as we become part of the federal republic of Europe and we are ruled by Brussels or Germany, taxes imposed centrally based on GDP? more of our laws made and implemented by Brussels, increased immigration, increased net migration, not enough housing to support the population not enough infrastructure to maintain the population , even without immigration

enough to ponder if you get past your own tiny life, don't you think ?

Still not prepared to state your own view then DK unlike most other posters, I wonder why?

You seem to have a low opinion of the other members of this community, which is strange for someone so active as to be in the top 5 posters since we began.
I certainly get the impression from those answering that they are giving this a lot of thought, and basing their considerations on what they believe is best for the UK, and thus of course for themselves as well. Nothing wrong in that, and seems to be what you would expect in a democracy.
You have made a fairly comprehensive list of the major issues that need to be considered in the upcoming referendum, the only major issue(s) I would add is what would be the cost to the UK when we come to negotiate a trading agreement if there is an exit vote.
The Stay campaign constantly point to how we would still need to give up major chunks of sovereignty to achieve accetable trading terms, though with very limited proof.
The Exit campaign, as yet, are avoiding this issue altogether.
Which is making it very difficult to make a sensible financial or political decision, and I guess the negative aspects of both sides campaigning will ultimately be how voters decide.

Not really the best way to decide on the future of the UK for our children and grandchildren.

[Dark Knight]

no need to wonder Townny ,as its not your concern

Barney: I agree that for people over retirement age, I doubt it will matter a jot but for those who have a career and many years left to go, it is more than just a tick in a box, it is the effect for generations to come, so while those with a hefty final salary pension might not care and only worry about themselves, their children and grandchildren may have more to worry about, whichever way it goes.

[barney]

My own take on the whole issue is that I think we'll probably be better off without the ball and chain of the EU, holding us back.

The UK is a dynamic economy and has for many years, punched above it's weight in all walks of life.

Sure, some things will change for the worse, but I think a lot more will change for the better.

The weird thing is that I'm sure the UK will not be allowed to leave, no matter the result.

Germany & France will crap themselves if they think that they will have to stump up Britains contribution and come up with something.
One thing is for sure, the ex Eastern Bloc countries won't.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Well now we see what CallmeDave thinks is a good deal.

Nothing to stop excess immigration or give us back control of our borders except a brake which the EU might or not apply after the referendum. Guess which way that will go once we've signed up to stay.

Nothing to give us power to put two fingers up to EU demands unless a majority of other countries agree - a measure which could equally be used against us.

Nothing to reduce red tape on industry or stop bureaucrats piling on more.

Nothing to take back control of our destiny from unelected officials.

If that's the best he can do (and other countries still have to agree even to that) I think I can see which way my vote is going. The times for CallMeMerkel'sLapdogDave to persuade me to change my mind is fast running out.

[barney]

Hmmmm !
I'm sure he could have done a little better if he'd aimed a tad higher.

He didn't ask for much and they've decided they may let him have it.
Not much, that is.

So, the endgame is, nothing really changes.

[Stephen]

12645074_1716438711904500_7792999346021360398_n.jpg

EU CAMCON: DAVID CAMERON HAS BEEN ARRESTED TODAY FOR CONSPIRACY TO CON THE BRITISH PEOPLE OVER HIS EU RENEGOTIATIONS.

NIGEL FARAGE WAS VOTED IN AS PRIME MINISTER

[Quizzical Bob]

My own take on the whole issue is that I think we'll probably be better off without the ball and chain of the EU, holding us back.

The UK is a dynamic economy and has for many years, punched above it's weight in all walks of life.

Sure, some things will change for the worse, but I think a lot more will change for the better.

The weird thing is that I'm sure the UK will not be allowed to leave, no matter the result.

Germany & France will cr*p themselves if they think that they will have to stump up Britains contribution and come up with something.
One thing is for sure, the ex Eastern Bloc countries won't.

I don't think you have any idea how difficult this foreign trade business is. Just hoping that something better will crop up is no sensible strategy.

[barney]

It can't be that difficult QuizBob

It's been going on for thousands of years

Most of which was before the EU was nothing but a pipe dream

I have personally seen absolutely nothing to convince me that the EU in it's current form is nothing but an expensive talking shop.

If it reverted back to the original common market then that would be acceptable, but an intergrated federal Europe, no ta !

We survived very well before it and we'll be fine without it. (quote Diigby Jones)

I appreciate that you have a vested interest and it's of no consequence to my small business but unless something dramatic happens, I'll vote out.

[Manoverboard]

So, we opt out and rely instead on the support of China, India and the USA ... hmmm, perhaps the EU is a better idea ?

[Quizzical Bob]

It can't be that difficult QuizBob

It's been going on for thousands of years

Most of which was before the EU was nothing but a pipe dream

I have personally seen absolutely nothing to convince me that the EU in it's current form is nothing but an expensive talking shop.

If it reverted back to the original common market then that would be acceptable, but an intergrated federal Europe, no ta !

We survived very well before it and we'll be fine without it. (quote Diigby Jones)

I appreciate that you have a vested interest and it's of no consequence to my small business but unless something dramatic happens, I'll vote out.

I'm not the only one with a vested interest, although to be honest mine is mainly in the past, but I do know that many hard-working would lose their jobs if we opted out. If it were that easy to sell to the rest of the world we would be doing it already. It would be mind-blowingly stupid to turn our backs on trade with our nearest neighbours, we have enough disadvantages already with being an island with poor transport links and having a currency that nobody else in the world uses.

And please don't keep quoting Digby Jones, he's an out of date dinosaur still living in the past. Why not listen to his modern and younger replacements?

[Mervyn and Trish]

We won't have to turn our backs on trade with our nearest neighbours. They sell more to us than we do to them so they're not going to slam the dòor.

But if business wants us to stay in they need to get CallMeDave up a back alley and tell him what he's come up with isn't enough to convince the man in the street and that he has to do better. Given a decent deal I'd vote in but the current package doesn't even come close.

[Quizzical Bob]

We won't have to turn our backs on trade with our nearest neighbours. They sell more to us than we do to them so they're not going to slam the dòor.

But if business wants us to stay in they need to get CallMeDave up a back alley and tell him what he's come up with isn't enough to convince the man in the street and that he has to do better. Given a decent deal I'd vote in but the current package doesn't even come close.

They sell to us because we need what they're selling. Unfortunately a large part of what we sell to them is services and they can easily obtain these elsewhere. If we left the EU we can only sell less to them and we are already selling as much as we can elsewhere.

I can see nothing beneficial about leaving, there is only downside.

[Silver_Shiney]

And please don't keep quoting Digby Jones, he's an out of date dinosaur still living in the past. Why not listen to his modern and younger replacements?

That doesn't make them wiser.