EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[oldbluefox]

In these parts I see no benefits whatsoever in being part of the EU, none at all and there are many more areas of the country which are likewise unaffected. Lack of job opportunities, poor infrastructure and lack of investment over many years merely leads to cynicism whenever the benefits of EU membership is mentioned.
I can understand those who have benefited being pro EU but these benefits are not consistent throughout the whole land.

[barney]

but I do know that many hard-working would lose their jobs if we opted out. - Err ! no you dont! Nobody does.

If it were that easy to sell to the rest of the world we would be doing it already. - we are doing it already

It would be mind-blowingly stupid to turn our backs on trade with our nearest neighbours - we won't be turning our backs and stop trading

we have enough disadvantages already with being an island with poor transport links - we are the fifth largest economy IN THE WORLD

and having a currency that nobody else in the world uses. - the £ sterling is universally recognised as the second currency of the world after the dollar.

Any more rash statements that can easily be refuted ?

The Stay campaign is overwhelmingly negative
How about some positives to how wonderful life would be if we stayed in?

The EU as an entity has already failed IMO and will eventually disintergrate.
We can be ahead of the game.

I'll vote Leave EU

[Silver_Shiney]

but I do know that many hard-working would lose their jobs if we opted out. - Err ! no you dont! Nobody does.

If it were that easy to sell to the rest of the world we would be doing it already. - we are doing it already

It would be mind-blowingly stupid to turn our backs on trade with our nearest neighbours - we won't be turning our backs and stop trading

we have enough disadvantages already with being an island with poor transport links - we are the fifth largest economy IN THE WORLD

and having a currency that nobody else in the world uses. - the £ sterling is universally recognised as the second currency of the world after the dollar.

Any more rash statements that can easily be refuted ?

The Stay campaign is overwhelmingly negative
How about some positives to how wonderful life would be if we stayed in?

The EU as an entity has already failed IMO and will eventually disintergrate.
We can be ahead of the game.

I'll vote Leave EU

[Dark Knight]

There are pros and cons to both staying and leaving but so far the stay or leave campaign is no more than scaremongering and both sides are hoping to win by scaring people into to voting how either side of the campaign wants, which is effectively what QBob is doing ,without telling anyone what his conclusions are based on ?
a lack of facts and self serving rhetoric doesn't really help anyone's case and we could well stay or leave out of unfounded fears
one thing is for certain, the "victory" Cameron won, was Phyrric at best and meaningless at worst and takes us nowhere

[Mervyn and Trish]

one thing is for certain, the "victory" Cameron won, was Phyrric at best and meaningless at worst and takes us nowhere

And that's putting a positive spin on it. And the rest haven't even agreed to that. If he wants us to stay in he needs to do a lot better.

[towny44]

Well we now have the bare bones of Camerons agreement and whilst he has won some concessions on the UK not being party to any future moves to a federal state and on protecting the UK from any future Euro problems, it does seem to be a very watered down version of his initial demands on benefit payments to EU migrants.
My major concerns have always been that by remaining in the EU we would be dragged down a federalist path and ultimately be forced to join the Euro, this now seems to have been addressede, BUT in essence this probably leaves us in a similar position to the likes of Norway or Switzerland with an increasingly less influential voice at the real heart of the EU.
In which case my view still seems to be in the Brexit camp, since we may as well only be part of the EU free trade zone if we have little hope of influencing the rest of the EU. Always of course assuming that we can negotiate to remain in the free trade zone, which I cannot envisage any of the major EU exporting countries to the UK, including Germany, not agreeing to.
It is going to be a very interesting 4 months if the referendum is in fact held in June.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I think Cameron has achieved nothing. We could vote in and the EU parliament overturn even the watered down deal after. Plus I'm appalled by the pathetic scare tactics of the in camp who can only highlght negatives of leaving and have nothing to offer on positives of staying. So at the moment I'm still out.

[Onelife]

Slightly more to the left than the right but l thought this article was preety much down the middle as to where we would stand if we decide to leave the EU.

As it stands my logic says in but my heart says out.... especially with that plonker Cameron doing the negotiations.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 49248.html

[Boris+]

My heart says one thing, and my head is completely at odds! Will be interesting though - if we were to leave, then would we revert to nice black passports (or very dark blue)? Might things which are currently not produced and/or sold due to eu laws be once again available?

For those of us who fly with cruises ...... when returning back to the UK, would the immigration lines at passport control be shorter, and the eu people have to join that nasty long queue with all the other foreigners???

Will they bring back the old imperial measures and £sd?

[Quizzical Bob]

My heart says one thing, and my head is completely at odds! Will be interesting though - if we were to leave, then would we revert to nice black passports (or very dark blue)? Might things which are currently not produced and/or sold due to eu laws be once again available?

For those of us who fly with cruises ...... when returning back to the UK, would the immigration lines at passport control be shorter, and the eu people have to join that nasty long queue with all the other foreigners???

Will they bring back the old imperial measures and £sd?

Most of these items seem regressive to me. Out of interest, what products do you think are not available due to EU laws?

[oldbluefox]

... especially with that plonker Cameron doing the negotiations.

It could be a whole lot worse. Blair led us all up the garden path (and denied us the vote he had promised in the process). Can you imagine the mayhem if Corbyn was in charge. All hypothetical as Corbyn wouldn't allow the great unwashed a vote anyway.
From the reports I have seen it all looks like ifs and buts anyway which could be reversed over the forthcoming years. How can I vote for an institution which has yet to have its books audited? If it was a private company it would have been shut down years ago.

[Manoverboard]

Dave did very well, I thought, given the overwhelming odds that were stacked against him.

BBC Breakfast TV this morning interviewed two MPs, one for staying in and the other for leaving.

The one for leaving, Kate Hole(?) ( Belfast ) said that the EU trading opportunities were diminishing and that we should concentrate instead on the Commonwealth Countries ... Jeez, I hope there will be more convincing responses.

ps ... I suspect that I will vote for ' Staying In ', if only for the sake of our Grandchildren.

[Quizzical Bob]

Dave did very well, I thought, given the overwhelming odds that were stacked against him.

BBC Breakfast TV this morning interviewed two MPs, one for staying in and the other for leaving.

The one for leaving, Kate Hole(?) ( Belfast ) said that the EU trading opportunities were diminishing and that we should concentrate instead on the Commonwealth Countries ... Jeez, I hope there will be more convincing responses.

ps ... I suspect that I will vote for ' Staying In ', if only for the sake of our Grandchildren.

We can concentrate on the Commonwealth Countries now, there's nothing to stop us.

[Boris+]

My heart says one thing, and my head is completely at odds! Will be interesting though - if we were to leave, then would we revert to nice black passports (or very dark blue)? Might things which are currently not produced and/or sold due to eu laws be once again available?

For those of us who fly with cruises ...... when returning back to the UK, would the immigration lines at passport control be shorter, and the eu people have to join that nasty long queue with all the other foreigners???

Will they bring back the old imperial measures and £sd?

Most of these items seem regressive to me. Out of interest, what products do you think are not available due to EU laws?

If the UK left, then when returning to the UK at an airport, if ALL the foreigners joined the long queue at passport control, that would make the queue for UK passport holders shorter - and surely that's not regressive? I also think that switching away from metric stuff and returning to imperial would improve the mental arithmetic capabilities of people - and again I can only see that as a positive.

As for what items are no longer produced due to eu laws (or are not available) - well, one of the reasons given for the end of production of the Land Rover Defender. They tried to stop our flavoured crisps, our sausages and ban our chocolate - and then they do stuff like foisting health and safety regulations on the UK willy nilly and blasted well ignore them as and when it suits. I've seen scaffolding held together with children's skipping ropes - and that was on a building in the suburb of Brussels where the diplomats are mainly based!

However, I really can't see that the UK will vote to leave - whether I agree with that or not is beside the point, I just can't see it happening.

[Onelife]

... especially with that plonker Cameron doing the negotiations.

It could be a whole lot worse. Blair led us all up the garden path (and denied us the vote he had promised in the process). Can you imagine the mayhem if Corbyn was in charge. All hypothetical as Corbyn wouldn't allow the great unwashed a vote anyway.
From the reports I have seen it all looks like ifs and buts anyway which could be reversed over the forthcoming years. How can I vote for an institution which has yet to have its books audited? If it was a private company it would have been shut down years ago.

Hi OBF

l try and not look back at previous leaders track records as it all makes for depressing reading. We are where we are and this present government have in my opinion failed in nearly every department at securing a better future for this country. As for his better deal for the UK he may have come away with a few scraps but the collar and leash of the French and Germans is still firmly in place.

My prediction is that Cameron will eventually get his way because the majority of UK voters won't vote for a future of the unknown. I will more than lilely vote out even though the reprecuccions of leaving the EU will be very painful and long lasting. However, l want to believe this would be a price worth paying if we were able to achieve a United (free from the restrains of Brussels) Kingdom again.....l belive it would.

Keith

[Quizzical Bob]

My heart says one thing, and my head is completely at odds! Will be interesting though - if we were to leave, then would we revert to nice black passports (or very dark blue)? Might things which are currently not produced and/or sold due to eu laws be once again available?

For those of us who fly with cruises ...... when returning back to the UK, would the immigration lines at passport control be shorter, and the eu people have to join that nasty long queue with all the other foreigners???

Will they bring back the old imperial measures and £sd?

Most of these items seem regressive to me. Out of interest, what products do you think are not available due to EU laws?

If the UK left, then when returning to the UK at an airport, if ALL the foreigners joined the long queue at passport control, that would make the queue for UK passport holders shorter - and surely that's not regressive? I also think that switching away from metric stuff and returning to imperial would improve the mental arithmetic capabilities of people - and again I can only see that as a positive.

As for what items are no longer produced due to eu laws (or are not available) - well, one of the reasons given for the end of production of the Land Rover Defender. They tried to stop our flavoured crisps, our sausages and ban our chocolate - and then they do stuff like foisting health and safety regulations on the UK willy nilly and blasted well ignore them as and when it suits. I've seen scaffolding held together with children's skipping ropes - and that was on a building in the suburb of Brussels where the diplomats are mainly based!

However, I really can't see that the UK will vote to leave - whether I agree with that or not is beside the point, I just can't see it happening.

Thanks for replying, B+.

All that would happen at the airports is that the facilities would be adjusted to equalise the queues. Most people on flights and ships to Britain are British anyway and I cannot see immigration queues as being a significant reason to leave. There was nothing nice about the bulky black passports and we shall certainly not be changing back to them. The current ones are an international standard and are machine- readable.

I cannot really believe that you are serious regarding imperial measures. SI units are another international standard that are used worldwide (except some industries in the USA). Mental arithmetic is down to the parents and the schools and if they can't handle decimals then they're all going to struggle with other number-based systems.

As for all the other stuff about the EU meddling in our foods and products, you really must stop believing what you read in the papers. The vast majority of the bureaucratic control comes from Westminster. The EU lays down a minimum standard for all members to ensure a level playing field. Westminster extends these wherever possible, as instanced by the recent debates about river dredging. My MEP once explained this to me. There was a lot of legislation that was necessary to get through Parliament and the bureaucrats at Westminster added on as much as they could whilst they could. This is referred to as EU legislation but it originates in Westminster and will not be repealed. You only need to look at other EU countries to see how much lip service is paid to the basic legislation. All of our products would still need to meet the EU standards if they are to be sold, either into the EU or outside.

The EU is an easy target for the press but the real culprits are in London.

[Mervyn and Trish]

It is not people in London who insist we pay child benefit to children living in Poland. It is not people in London who insist we must pay the same benefits to people from Romania who just arrived to live here as to those born from British families who've paid into the system for years. It is not peopie in London who say we have to admit other Europeans whether or not they have a job to come to and whether they have a string of criminal convictions or not. It is not people in London who are handing EU passports to economic migrants to get them off their hands and wave them on towards the UK.

The EU is in serious trouble. It is corrupt to its very roots. It has chance to make itself more credible to the British people and has put two fingers up at those British people who polls indicate have had enough.

[Boris+]

Whether we stay or leave - I'll just go along and do my vote (or postal if I'm away), and I'll just have to put up with the result of the vote, so I'm not going to be too 'definite' about it, as life is far too short to get wound up about something which I can do precious little about.

It would however be nice to see the UK get it's pride back, and I do think that many of the things which we seem to have lost (such as imperial measurements etc) would be nice to have back. Why shouldn't we be different?

I don't really think that the majority of people flying in to UK airports are UK citizens - there are more non-UK citizens in the world than UK citizens, and the London airports are a world hub, surely? Admittedly the same can't really be said of cruise ports, but I thought that as far as ferries were concerned that a good percentage of ferry passengers would be foreign, too - but maybe not as high a percentage as we have at the airports. I thought that there might just be more international scheduled flights carrying a higher number of foreign passengers than UK citizens - maybe I'm wrong? We only fly on scheduled flights, we don't have any charter flight bookings, and I've always noticed that the non-UK (eu) passport line is usually longer than the UK passport line. Perhaps I was jet lagged and got it wrong, but it would be nice to see UK citizens being given priority, not just at airports etc., but with health and schooling etc too. Why should foreigners come to this country and get free medical treatment when they haven't paid in to the system? I don't think that British people get free medical treatment overseas - do they?

So, going back to the way I feel - I'm not going to get wound up by all this: I'll vote and that's it. I'm most certainly not going to waste my free time in the better weather on thinking about the eu.

[Onelife]

It is not people in London who insist we pay child benefit to children living in Poland. It is not people in London who insist we must pay the same benefits to people from Romania who just arrived to live here as to those born from British families who've paid into the system for years. It is not peopie in London who say we have to admit other Europeans whether or not they have a job to come to and whether they have a string of criminal convictions or not. It is not people in London who are handing EU passports to economic migrants to get them off their hands and wave them on towards the UK.

The EU is in serious trouble. It is corrupt to its very roots. It has chance to make itself more credible to the British people and has put two fingers up at those British people who polls indicate have had enough.

Sir Merv ....The current odds for staying in the EU are 2/7 whilst you can get 5/2 about us getting out. But all is not lost as the bookies got it wrong at the last election.

Regards

Keith

[oldbluefox]

and I do think that many of the things which we seem to have lost (such as imperial measurements etc) would be nice to have back. Why shouldn't we be different?

Good heavens!!! Next we'll be back to furlongs, chains and bushels. Not sure how reverting back to Imperial measure will help but imagine the chaos caused in the export markets.
Some things are best left alone.

[Quizzical Bob]

It is not people in London who insist we pay child benefit to children living in Poland. It is not people in London who insist we must pay the same benefits to people from Romania who just arrived to live here as to those born from British families who've paid into the system for years. It is not peopie in London who say we have to admit other Europeans whether or not they have a job to come to and whether they have a string of criminal convictions or not. It is not people in London who are handing EU passports to economic migrants to get them off their hands and wave them on towards the UK.

The EU is in serious trouble. It is corrupt to its very roots. It has chance to make itself more credible to the British people and has put two fingers up at those British people who polls indicate have had enough.

No?

Then why doesn't all this happen in other EU countries?

[towny44]

It is not people in London who insist we pay child benefit to children living in Poland. It is not people in London who insist we must pay the same benefits to people from Romania who just arrived to live here as to those born from British families who've paid into the system for years. It is not peopie in London who say we have to admit other Europeans whether or not they have a job to come to and whether they have a string of criminal convictions or not. It is not people in London who are handing EU passports to economic migrants to get them off their hands and wave them on towards the UK.

The EU is in serious trouble. It is corrupt to its very roots. It has chance to make itself more credible to the British people and has put two fingers up at those British people who polls indicate have had enough.

No?

Then why doesn't all this happen in other EU countries?

Do you know for certain it doesn't, and if it doesn't why aren't Brussels getting on their backs for not following the rules?

[towny44]

Just been reading all the so called experts opinions, and it suddenly struck me that if the EU was a multi national corporation somebody would make a takeover bid and then make a fortune breaking it up and selling off its component parts. Proving my view that seperately the EU would be worth more it is combined!!!

[Mervyn and Trish]

It is not people in London who insist we pay child benefit to children living in Poland. It is not people in London who insist we must pay the same benefits to people from Romania who just arrived to live here as to those born from British families who've paid into the system for years. It is not peopie in London who say we have to admit other Europeans whether or not they have a job to come to and whether they have a string of criminal convictions or not. It is not people in London who are handing EU passports to economic migrants to get them off their hands and wave them on towards the UK.

The EU is in serious trouble. It is corrupt to its very roots. It has chance to make itself more credible to the British people and has put two fingers up at those British people who polls indicate have had enough.

No?

Then why doesn't all this happen in other EU countries?

For the most part because the UK has a stronger economy, higher wages and higher benefits and lower unemploymen than most other countries in Europe. No one is racing to move to Romania to work for their low rates and send their lower rate of child benefit home to the UK. But some other wealthier countries are looking to follow what the UK wants to do, noteably Germany, and the eastern countries want to stop the UK getting a better deal because they fear a domino effect.

Yes there is an element that the UK follows rules that others ignore, but what's the point in being in a club and not following the rules? Everytime the UK fails to dot an i or cross a t the EU throws up its hand in horror. We wanted to control our borders - they said no. Now others are putting up razor wire fences and that's okay. We wanted to limit the number of immigrants and there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. Now Austria has imposed a quota without anyone getting upset.

I repeat, the EU is corrupt to the core. Who wants to be part of that?

But to pick up what seems to be you main concern previously, if industry is going to be so hard hit by not exporting to Europe why don't they adapt to manufacture the goods and provide the services we currently buy at great cost from Europe, unshackled by the red tape we often hear aboout? Small businesses have been griping about that for years. Nolw they have chance to ditch it. Where's the problem?

[Quizzical Bob]

It is not people in London who insist we pay child benefit to children living in Poland. It is not people in London who insist we must pay the same benefits to people from Romania who just arrived to live here as to those born from British families who've paid into the system for years. It is not peopie in London who say we have to admit other Europeans whether or not they have a job to come to and whether they have a string of criminal convictions or not. It is not people in London who are handing EU passports to economic migrants to get them off their hands and wave them on towards the UK.

The EU is in serious trouble. It is corrupt to its very roots. It has chance to make itself more credible to the British people and has put two fingers up at those British people who polls indicate have had enough.

No?

Then why doesn't all this happen in other EU countries?

For the most part because the UK has a stronger economy, higher wages and higher benefits and lower unemploymen than most other countries in Europe. No one is racing to move to Romania to work for their low rates and send their lower rate of child benefit home to the UK. But some other wealthier countries are looking to follow what the UK wants to do, noteably Germany, and the eastern countries want to stop the UK getting a better deal because they fear a domino effect.

Yes there is an element that the UK follows rules that others ignore, but what's the point in being in a club and not following the rules? Everytime the UK fails to dot an i or cross a t the EU throws up its hand in horror. We wanted to control our borders - they said no. Now others are putting up razor wire fences and that's okay. We wanted to limit the number of immigrants and there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. Now Austria has imposed a quota without anyone getting upset.

I repeat, the EU is corrupt to the core. Who wants to be part of that?

But to pick up what seems to be you main concern previously, if industry is going to be so hard hit by not exporting to Europe why don't they adapt to manufacture the goods and provide the services we currently buy at great cost from Europe, unshackled by the red tape we often hear aboout? Small businesses have been griping about that for years. Nolw they have chance to ditch it. Where's the problem?

The red tape comes from the UK, not the EU.