EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[towny44]

Just been reading two letters in our local paper about the referendum.

One from a Brexit fan making all the same points I do about the wrong federal direction the EU has taken, and how the UK should be capable of negotiating a fair trade deal even if, as QB keeps pointing out, we have to make a contribution to the EU, and abide by their trade rules.

The other a remain supporter, but only because they fear the unknown of a leave vote, and are concerned about being isolated from defence, security and policing issues.

To me this latter point is meaningless in the modern world, we were a NATO member long before we joined the EEC, and will remain a member in the future. Similarly Interpol existed before we had the EEC/EU, and cooperation between security services worldwide is now essential in the fight against terrorism.

The only table we will not be present at is the EU and we have been a lone voice here for many years, and we seem to be getting more and more sidelined.

As one final point, may I may I just add to all the remain supporters that the only country ever to have negotiated a rebate from the EU is the UK, which should ease their concerns about the UK negotiating a reasonable free trade deal.

[Mervyn and Trish]

You're lucky then. Other business people I talk to are less fortunate

Any frinstances?

Not that I'm going to share on here QB without their consent. Suffice to say they are people I know personally who run small to medium sized businesses you've probably never heard of. But then they've probably never heard of yours either. My sole point is that as a businessman you speak, quite rightly, of what you believe is best for your business. But you certainly do not speak for all businesses, many of whom hold the opposite view. That's why we're having a referendum. If the answer was obvious we wouldn't need one.

And to add, selfishly I know, when the vote comes I'll vote for what is right for me, not for anyone else. So what I want both sides to do is tell me how they'll deal with my concerns, which essentially remain control of our borders and governing ourselves without interference. Not keep banging on for what's good for them.

[anniec]

My OH is Chairman of a medium-sized business. The European Time Directive is one of his main bugbears.

He's in favour of getting out, as are many of his colleagues.

[Quizzical Bob]

You're lucky then. Other business people I talk to are less fortunate

Any frinstances?

Not that I'm going to share on here QB without their consent. Suffice to say they are people I know personally who run small to medium sized businesses you've probably never heard of. But then they've probably never heard of yours either. My sole point is that as a businessman you speak, quite rightly, of what you believe is best for your business. But you certainly do not speak for all businesses, many of whom hold the opposite view. That's why we're having a referendum. If the answer was obvious we wouldn't need one.

And to add, selfishly I know, when the vote comes I'll vote for what is right for me, not for anyone else. So what I want both sides to do is tell me how they'll deal with my concerns, which essentially remain control of our borders and governing ourselves without interference. Not keep banging on for what's good for them.

I'm not supporting staying in for the sake of my business, I'm too old for that now and at my age I shall vote for what I believe is best for the future of the younger generations. I'm one of those strange people who want the best for the people of Britain. I spent some time as president of a Chamber of Commerce so I have had many dealings with businesses of all shapes and sizes.

A lot of people talk about 'EU regulations' when they should refer to 'European-wide regulations'. It's easy to blame the EU for all your ailments when all that we are doing is ensuring consistency across all the member states.

[Silver_Shiney]

But is it not the EU who make these European-wide regulations?

[towny44]

You're lucky then. Other business people I talk to are less fortunate

Any frinstances?

Not that I'm going to share on here QB without their consent. Suffice to say they are people I know personally who run small to medium sized businesses you've probably never heard of. But then they've probably never heard of yours either. My sole point is that as a businessman you speak, quite rightly, of what you believe is best for your business. But you certainly do not speak for all businesses, many of whom hold the opposite view. That's why we're having a referendum. If the answer was obvious we wouldn't need one.

And to add, selfishly I know, when the vote comes I'll vote for what is right for me, not for anyone else. So what I want both sides to do is tell me how they'll deal with my concerns, which essentially remain control of our borders and governing ourselves without interference. Not keep banging on for what's good for them.

I'm not supporting staying in for the sake of my business, I'm too old for that now and at my age I shall vote for what I believe is best for the future of the younger generations. I'm one of those strange people who want the best for the people of Britain. I spent some time as president of a Chamber of Commerce so I have had many dealings with businesses of all shapes and sizes.

A lot of people talk about 'EU regulations' when they should refer to 'European-wide regulations'. It's easy to blame the EU for all your ailments when all that we are doing is ensuring consistency across all the member states.

I am all for consistency QB, presumably that's why we all have differing electric sockets, drive on opposite sides of the road etc, and most impressive of all speak 30 or so different languages; that's bound to help us understand one another.

[barney]

I'm interested on your take on it QB because I shall vote Leave but for exactly the same reason.

I expect whatever the result, it will make no difference to my life, but if we stay, young people will be asking in years to come why we didn't vote to leave when we had the chance.

As I've said before, the ONLY question that you have to ask yourself is
'Do I wish to be governed by Brussels'?

If you're happy with that, vote to remain in!

[Frank Manning]

I worked in engineering project sales for 28 years before I went to teach at Uni, and I experienced exporting life under both Labour and Tory governments, before and after we joined the EU. In that time I can honestly say that being in the EU made my job easier. Standardisation was a minor problem and as QB says it simplified things significantly. If the Daily Mail (et al) stopped hyping up every minor inconvenience, and stopped living in the past, people wouldn't get so hot under the collar about so called loss of sovereignty. It wasn't just the trade it was the relationships as well. Everything steadily improved for us in engineering, after entry to the EU, and in my last incarnation I had sister companies and agents all over Europe, and our relationships were fantastic. I would always like doing business with the Germans and the Swedes, we learned a lot from them, and although they were 'sticklers' for standards, you always knew where you stood with them. I cant say the same for lots of British companies, where back stabbing, and internal politics were rife, making business harder to do. It's a British disease, and my experience has made me believe that logical thought and long term planning will go out of the window, and insincere populism will rule OK once the 'Little Englanders' win this referendum. Like QB I am only glad that I am too old for it to make a significant difference. In all other respects I despair that we never seem to learn in this country.

[barney]

The Daily Wail may well hype up facts but you cannot escape from the population issue that probably doesn't effect you down in sunny Poole, but does here in the South East.
We live in constant gridlock.

With 1.6 million EU migrants living and (mainly) working in the UK, it has become clear that our infrastructure cannot handle this spike.
To be fair, nobody expected it but it has happened regardless.

Without a MASSIVE investment in roads, schools, hospitals etc, this small island will grind to a halt.

This referendum is about a lot more the 'ease of business'

[Quizzical Bob]

I worked in engineering project sales for 28 years before I went to teach at Uni, and I experienced exporting life under both Labour and Tory governments, before and after we joined the EU. In that time I can honestly say that being in the EU made my job easier. Standardisation was a minor problem and as QB says it simplified things significantly. If the Daily Mail (et al) stopped hyping up every minor inconvenience, and stopped living in the past, people wouldn't get so hot under the collar about so called loss of sovereignty. It wasn't just the trade it was the relationships as well. Everything steadily improved for us in engineering, after entry to the EU, and in my last incarnation I had sister companies and agents all over Europe, and our relationships were fantastic. I would always like doing business with the Germans and the Swedes, we learned a lot from them, and although they were 'sticklers' for standards, you always knew where you stood with them. I cant say the same for lots of British companies, where back stabbing, and internal politics were rife, making business harder to do. It's a British disease, and my experience has made me believe that logical thought and long term planning will go out of the window, and insincere populism will rule OK once the 'Little Englanders' win this referendum. Like QB I am only glad that I am too old for it to make a significant difference. In all other respects I despair that we never seem to learn in this country.

Yes indeed, Frank. It's depressing isn't it.

[Quizzical Bob]

But is it not the EU who make these European-wide regulations?

Yes, with our input and agreement. They are not forced upon us. Of course, if we did leave we would still have to meet these same regulations and standards.

[Quizzical Bob]

The Daily Wail may well hype up facts but you cannot escape from the population issue that probably doesn't effect you down in sunny Poole, but does here in the South East.
We live in constant gridlock.

With 1.6 million EU migrants living and (mainly) working in the UK, it has become clear that our infrastructure cannot handle this spike.
To be fair, nobody expected it but it has happened regardless.

Without a MASSIVE investment in roads, schools, hospitals etc, this small island will grind to a halt.

This referendum is about a lot more the 'ease of business'

I totaly agree. This influx of extra population over the last twenty years is ridicuous and stupid but it hasn't all been EU, far from it. It was a deliberate policy by the previous (mainly Labour) governments. I would put our present population at between 70m and 80m which is far higher than the official figure. The thing is that we have already received most of the influx from the EU. If we did vote to leave then all those who were thinking of coming here would all rush over before the documents were eventually signed, and all the ex-pats would rush home because they wouldn't get their health treatments any more. In reality all those already here would be allowed to stay and the EU people would just be added to the Rest of the World figure. I cannot detect any enthusiasm on the part of those who are supposed to protect our borders to be more strict in the future. They've already let in several millions with no controls up to now.

[Frank Manning]

If you want to sell in the EU you have to meet EU norms and standards, and dont thnik we would go back to the old B.S. However beware, because when I was last involved, the Belgians, (who else!!) were implementing their own national standards as well, if it would give preference to a Belgian company. Our German subsidairy was as frustrated with them as we were.

I am solidly for staying in the EU. Arguments about immigration are meaningless because we will still have people wanting to come here for security and our welfare systems. The 'Little Englanders' are in for a major disillusionment if they win; once the dust has settled.

[Silver_Shiney]

. Arguments about immigration are meaningless because we will still have people wanting to come here for security and our welfare systems.

They will still want to come here, yes, but I hope that, once free of EU bureaucracy, we'd have tighter control of our borders and prevent the spongers from coming in. Genuine refugees should, of course, always be welcome.

[oldbluefox]

I see no benefits whatsoever in our membership of the EU. On the other hand last night it was reported there was a deficit in our exports to the EU. We are actually importing more from the EU than we are exporting. For this we are paying the EU £13 billion of which £4.5 billion is spent in the UK. Simply looking at those figures alone I get the impression the EU needs us more than we need them.
There is one 'little Englander' here who can't help thinking we are better off out of the EU since, so far, nobody, EU, the media or pro EU activists has convinced me otherwise.

[Silver_Shiney]

"one" little Englander? You can't count, Foxy!

[towny44]

If you want to sell in the EU you have to meet EU norms and standards, and dont thnik we would go back to the old B.S. However beware, because when I was last involved, the Belgians, (who else!!) were implementing their own national standards as well, if it would give preference to a Belgian company. Our German subsidairy was as frustrated with them as we were.

I am solidly for staying in the EU. Arguments about immigration are meaningless because we will still have people wanting to come here for security and our welfare systems.The 'Little Englanders' are in for a major disillusionment if they win; once the dust has settled.

Frank, why is it that most remain supporters either try to scare voters with their unknown views of what might happen if we leave, or resort to labelling Brexit supporters as Little Englanders or not caring about our grandchildren's future.
I cannot remember any forum members who support Brexit having to insult remain supporters to make their point, rather we are the only ones who appear to have a positive message as to why we believe that leaving the EU is the correct course to take. I would really like to hear your positive views on why we should remain, leaving out the unknown trade, security, defence and policing issues which we Brexit supporters feel that a UK Govt. should be able to resolve fairly easily.

[barney]

It is quite simply fear of the unknown towny.

If our ancestors had this attitude we'd still be living in caves

We KNOW that the EU in it's current form is not very good, and we KNOW that it's highly likely to get worse because of reluctance to reform.

What we don't know is how good we can be, fighting for our own corner.

As a nation, the UK punches well above it's weight in so many things, and always has done.

I can't believe the negativity from our own Government and others, virtually saying that should we leave, the world will collapse as we know it!!
Talk about talking down your own side.

IF we should vote leave, hopefully things WILL change but for the better.
If we stay, we just accept that they will get worse.

As Foxy says, they need us as much or even more than we need them, so a mutually acceptable agreement will need to be reached.

Don't get me wrong, I love Europe and I love going there.
I don't consider m self a little Englander but I know what I know, and I know I don't like what the EU is and what it is further turning into.

United States of Europe? Not for me thanks.

[gilly88]

It is quite simply fear of the unknown towny.

If our ancestors had this attitude we'd still be living in caves

We KNOW that the EU in it's current form is not very good, and we KNOW that it's highly likely to get worse because of reluctance to reform.

What we don't know is how good we can be, fighting for our own corner.

As a nation, the UK punches well above it's weight in so many things, and always has done.

I can't believe the negativity from our own Government and others, virtually saying that should we leave, the world will collapse as we know it!!
Talk about talking down your own side.

IF we should vote leave, hopefully things WILL change but for the better.
If we stay, we just accept that they will get worse.

As Foxy says, they need us as much or even more than we need them, so a mutually acceptable agreement will need to be reached.

Don't get me wrong, I love Europe and I love going there.
I don't consider m self a little Englander but I know what I know, and I know I don't like what the EU is and what it is further turning into.

United States of Europe? Not for me thanks.

well said barney I agree. the problem with voting to stay in the EU also is that once accepted as a "permanent" member they will be free to impose every thing they want on us and there will be nothing that we can do about it. the EU want ever closer union at any cost and what the people want means nothing and for that reason along with yours ....i'm for out.

[Frank Manning]

One further insult then, if that's what you think they are. Boris is supporting Brexit.... another reason for me to think that it must be a bad idea for the average man, and a good idea for the right wing loonies in the Tory party. But don't worry, I am sure the vote will be in favour of Brexit and we will begin an isolationist led phase of muddle and fudge while the drawn out transition to third world status begins.

[towny44]

One further insult then, if that's what you think they are. Boris is supporting Brexit.... another reason for me to think that it must be a bad idea for the average man, and a good idea for the right wing loonies in the Tory party. But don't worry, I am sure the vote will be in favour of Brexit and we will begin an isolationist led phase of muddle and fudge while the drawn out transition to third world status begins.

That should be good for us Frank, we can then stop providing aid to the third world and start receiving it for ourself.

[oldbluefox]

we will begin an isolationist led phase of muddle and fudge while the drawn out transition to third world status begins.

Are we still talking about Brexit ot Bremain?
The way the EU is developing I don't see much of a difference except in one we determine our destiny for ourselves and in the other it is decided for us.

[Quizzical Bob]

we will begin an isolationist led phase of muddle and fudge while the drawn out transition to third world status begins.

Are we still talking about Brexit ot Bremain?
The way the EU is developing I don't see much of a difference except in one we determine our destiny for ourselves and in the other it is decided for us.

We de terming our own destiny whether in or out of the EU. The only problem is that outside the EU we shall all be worse off.

[Quizzical Bob]

One further insult then, if that's what you think they are. Boris is supporting Brexit.... another reason for me to think that it must be a bad idea for the average man, and a good idea for the right wing loonies in the Tory party. But don't worry, I am sure the vote will be in favour of Brexit and we will begin an isolationist led phase of muddle and fudge while the drawn out transition to third world status begins.

That should be good for us Frank, we can then stop providing aid to the third world and start receiving it for ourself.

But there aren't any countries as generous as us.

[oldbluefox]

we will begin an isolationist led phase of muddle and fudge while the drawn out transition to third world status begins.

Are we still talking about Brexit ot Bremain?
The way the EU is developing I don't see much of a difference except in one we determine our destiny for ourselves and in the other it is decided for us.

We de terming our own destiny whether in or out of the EU. The only problem is that outside the EU we shall all be worse off.

You mean we can determine who comes into our country from the EU? That's not my understanding and that is only one aspect. A vote to remain in Europe will herald a green light towards a federal Europe. Not for me although I respect the fact you think differently.