EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[oldbluefox]

Pay £13 billion per annum to belong to a club which has yet to have its books audited, which overspends year on year, yet on imports/exports 'Data from the Office of National Statistics showed a deficit of 8.1 billion pounds ($11.7 billion) in January and 23 billion pounds over the past three months' (Bloomberg)?
I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination but that does not look a good deal to me.
I do my best to find something positive about our EU membership but, not being much keen on wine even that does not tempt me.

[Delboy]

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us?

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.
Simon Sweeney
Lecturer in international political economy, University of York

[Delboy]

For years now, the auditors refuse to sign off the EU accounts!


This is false. The European Court of Auditors gave a clean bill of health on our 2013 accounting books, for the seventh time in a row. This means every euro spent from the EU budget was duly recorded in the books and accounted for.

Where does the error rate the Court is constantly reporting come from?

When it comes to payments, the Court can confirm that the EU spending was in line with the rules only when the error rate is less than 2%. The Commission is working to move closer to this 2% threshold.

In the past years the Commission managed to keep the error rate under 5%. In other words, out of every 100 euro spent by the EU, at least 95 euro was free from error. While this is not enough to get the Court of Auditors' positive opinion, it does indicate the very high standard of management and control applied to taxpayers' money at EU level.

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/myths/myths_en.cfm

It is worth noting that the errors in EU spending are usually administrative mistakes, which are not fraud. According to Commission´s estimations only 0.2% of annual spending may be affected by fraud.

[Silver_Shiney]

Pay £13 billion per annum to belong to a club which has yet to have its books audited, which overspends year on year, yet on imports/exports 'Data from the Office of National Statistics showed a deficit of 8.1 billion pounds ($11.7 billion) in January and 23 billion pounds over the past three months' (Bloomberg)?
I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination but that does not look a good deal to me.
I do my best to find something positive about our EU membership but, not being much keen on wine even that does not tempt me.

If a company had refused to have its accounts audited for even a year, it would be in BIG trouble. Why is the EU exempt basic accounting law?

As you're not keen on wine, Foxy, I'll have your share

[Delboy]

The EU accounts are fully audited every year, 2014 accounts were audited in 2015 and signed off as reliable, the 2015 accounts will be audited this year.

[towny44]

Delboy, it does seem from reading Simon Sweeneys bio that he is a very left wing leaning social democrat who believes the Guardian is the custodian of the holy grail. So I would expect him to be a pro european and as a very eloquent senior lecturer in international political economics, I would expect him to be able to spin any lies to suit his arguments.

[oldbluefox]

I stand corrected..................
One of the articles I read said "European Union auditors say the EU misspent about €7bn (£5.5bn) last year - that is, 4.7% of its annual budget. The €7bn is described as "errors" in budget allocations, only part of which could be called fraud or waste. The European Court of Auditors (ECA) said the EU budget should be focused on achieving results rather than on "just getting funds spent"".(BBC News)
It still doesn't sound good does it?

[towny44]

I stand corrected..................
One of the articles I read said "European Union auditors say the EU misspent about €7bn (£5.5bn) last year - that is, 4.7% of its annual budget. The €7bn is described as "errors" in budget allocations, only part of which could be called fraud or waste. The European Court of Auditors (ECA) said the EU budget should be focused on achieving results rather than on "just getting funds spent"".(BBC News)
It still doesn't sound good does it?

Give any organisation a sum of money to cover a years activities and come Feb and March there will be a major flurry to spend up before any surplus gets swept up into reserves, our Town centre is currently full of road works with lots of Haz Vest clad folk staring around vacantly; and the Govt. want to give them even more as part of their devolution plan.
If politicians had brains they would be dangerous.

[oldbluefox]

Who am I to argue?

Churchill.jpg

[Frank Manning]

Yes, but that was 1953 OBF, when we still had the vestiges of empire, a large navy, and our own industries, and when the memory of "their finest hour" was fresh. Much of Europe still resembled a massive train wreck.Things are very different now. All through the 1950's we led the world in shipbuilding. Not any more, our British way of management; muddling through with no long term planning cost us dear. Simon Sweeney may be left wing, and I will admit to having left of centre tendencies myself, but for me, he makes a lot of sense.

[oldbluefox]

You little leftie, you!!!
For me, Frank, the words still ring true. I don't want to be ruled by Europe. A relationship with Europe is fine, trading with Europe is fine but the fabric of the governing body known as the EU is cumbersome and flawed and I want Britain to have no part in it.
The refugee crisis only goes to underline just how incapable it is and is yet another example of EU incompetency.

[Frank Manning]

OK, but the fabric of the governing body of the UK is also cumbersome and flawed. That is the bureacracy of government in democracy. Our politicians are also an uninspiring lot. The alternative is dictatorship.

They are holding a "consultation" about putting pay and display meters in the roads near the beach in Poole. Now don't call me cynical but my experience of these consultations is that they are just cosmetic. There are 6000 signatures against it already, but it wont make a scrap of difference, neither will the councillors. The Transport Dept at Poole don't want to be confused by democracy, their minds are made up.

I agree that the EU needs reforming, and millions of Europeans agree with that. But we wont get reform by taking our ball away and saying "I'm not playing".

Any way I accept lots of the arguments of the Brexiteers, but it's still imho in our interests to stay in and play a full and constructive part.

[towny44]

OK, but the fabric of the governing body of the UK is also cumbersome and flawed. That is the bureacracy of government in democracy. Our politicians are also an uninspiring lot. The alternative is dictatorship.

They are holding a "consultation" about putting pay and display meters in the roads near the beach in Poole. Now don't call me cynical but my experience of these consultations is that they are just cosmetic. There are 6000 signatures against it already, but it wont make a scrap of difference, neither will the councillors. The Transport Dept at Poole don't want to be confused by democracy, their minds are made up.

I agree that the EU needs reforming, and millions of Europeans agree with that. But we wont get reform by taking our ball away and saying "I'm not playing".

Any way I accept lots of the arguments of the Brexiteers, but it's still imho in our interests to stay in and play a full and constructive part.

Frank, you make a good point and I would be with you 100% if the EU had any record of taking the UK's reservations about a federal Europe and a one size fits all euro into account, but it does not take any notice of the fairly lonely UK voice. So what point is there in remaining a member, we will be far better off staying on the platform as the EU heads for a train wreck.

[Delboy]

OBF

I don't think you'll find a sensible person to argue the EU doesn't need reform. Everyone agrees it does. But to solve the relatively small problems of poor administration by withdrawing wholesale seems entirely disproportionate to me, and clearly more about ideology than economics.

You are happy to trade with them but don't want to be ruled by them.

So let's take for example Norway a much wealthier country than ours (mainly due to the oil).

However for them to trade with the EU, they have no input into any decision making but still have to abide by any EU legislation.
They have to retain all EU standards, regulations and still have to pay substantial contributions to the EU budget.
No say but still pay.
Norway also has higher immigration than Britain, not everything is sunnier on the other side.

Personally I don't think we are fit enough to go it alone. At this moment I still need to be convinced being outside one of the largest trading blocks in the world is a good thing. We would be out of Europe but still tied to their rules if we want to trade..... It's not a free ride.

Very little large-scale UK manufacturing is UK owned. Carlos Ghosn (boss of Nissan) has said clearly, many times, that the Sunderland plant would close if UK was outside EU. Also around 1000+ very highly paid engineering jobs at Nissan Cranfield would follow. So maybe 5000 or 6000 jobs.

Honda sell more in Europe than they sell in UK, so would they stay? That's around another 4000 highly paid jobs. Even JLR, the very iconic British brand, has chosen Slovakia for it's next facility, maybe with one eye on the UK's uncertain commitment to Europe.

Modern manufacturing is much more mobile than people imagine, and a UK outside the EU would be a disaster for those employees, and for the tens of thousands who support them.

That's before you imagine what an economy without manufacturing looks like; not healthy.

[Mervyn and Trish]

So what about steel? Our steel industry is about to collapse. But it's a strategic industry for defence.

The problem is caused by China dumping cheap, state subsidised steel in the EU. And now the Chinese are imposing a 46% tariff on the specialist steel we send there. So what are the EU doing about it? Resounding silence.

In the meantime, fighting back by subsidising our own steel industry would be illegal under - guess what - EU rules.

[barney]

You can use all the logical argument you want Delboy and much of it is hard to dismiss but it still avoids the fundamental question, and that is that the EU is on a rollercoater ride to Political Federalism.

That is an absolute fact and cannot be argued

If you wish to be governed to a group of foreign countries, then vote to stay in

But, as I've already said, I'd prefer to live in a country where we are masters of our own destiny

There are many more countries existing quite nicely outside of the EU and they are doing ok.

The only ones appealing to join are the ones that need something.

If it is all as brilliant as you make out, why are more affluent countries not applying to join and why are we having this discussion in the first place.

If the vote in June was to Join as opposed to Stay in, there would be an overwhelming rejection.

[Silver_Shiney]

So what about steel? Our steel industry is about to collapse. But it's a strategic industry for defence.

The problem is caused by China dumping cheap, state subsidised steel in the EU. And now the Chinese are imposing a 46% tariff on the specialist steel we send there. So what are the EU doing about it? Resounding silence.

In the meantime, fighting back by subsidising our own steel industry would be illegal under - guess what - EU rules.

We could always refuse to sell our specialist steel to the Chinese. Presumably they're buying ours because it's the best available (only available? I don't know) If they want it, they should pay the going rate for it.

[Delboy]

Well Barney I prefer to debate with logical argument than an Hypothesis.

There are many who would total disagree with your assumption that it is a fact which cannot be argued with, that Europe is on a Rollercoaster to becoming a Political Federation.

Also vote to join rather than stay in is a totally different argument with totally different considerations to consider.

Personally at my age mid seventies it will have very little impact on my life if we stay in or leave, I may not even still be around to see it finalised should we decide to leave.

I am more interested in how it will affect my grandchildren, I am certainly more convinced their future is more assured by being in than out of the EU.

Masters of our own destiny is what worries me, based on previous experience.

I agree when they say those who have already made up their minds on how they will vote, will not be persuaded to change their minds, logical argument or otherwise. I am also of the opinion many will base their vote purely on the issue of immigration.

[Frank Manning]

Mervyn,
In 1986 I was very involved in a research paper about the old British Steel Corporation. They had made massive improvements in productivity, but they still needed further tremendous investment to bring them into line with the latest continuous casting mills being built in emerging economies. Instead of making that investment, it was sold off, very thoughtlessly to competitors with little appetite for investing in it. As fast as the latest investor invests, the UK government ups its business rates, and it is paying more than double the energy costs of its competitors on top of that. With fixed costs like those it has no chance. The Chinese have been expanding their steel making capacity in line with their economic growth, which is now stalling, and consequently they are dumping steel at low prices. The problem is not Europe, it is a Tory government (and previous Labour ones) with no industrial strategy; hence endless shrinking UK markets for steel, and inability to compete internationally. Even if the EU allows us to nationalise steel, there is no appetite among the Tories to turn it into a truly efficient world class industry. They just don't have the mind set to understand industry. As Thatcher said "We are going to be a service economy", and a fat lot she understood about economics, outside of retail.

[Quizzical Bob]

So what about steel? Our steel industry is about to collapse. But it's a strategic industry for defence.

The problem is caused by China dumping cheap, state subsidised steel in the EU. And now the Chinese are imposing a 46% tariff on the specialist steel we send there. So what are the EU doing about it? Resounding silence.

In the meantime, fighting back by subsidising our own steel industry would be illegal under - guess what - EU rules.

The reason that the EU has low tariffs on Chinese steel is entirely down to the UK. Despite what you might think, or have read in the Daily Mail, we have enough influence in Brussels to insist that the Chinese can export their steel to us cheaply.

[Manoverboard]

So what about steel? Our steel industry is about to collapse. But it's a strategic industry for defence.

The problem is caused by China dumping cheap, state subsidised steel in the EU. And now the Chinese are imposing a 46% tariff on the specialist steel we send there. So what are the EU doing about it? Resounding silence.

In the meantime, fighting back by subsidising our own steel industry would be illegal under - guess what - EU rules.

The reason that the EU has low tariffs on Chinese steel is entirely down to the UK. Despite what you might think, or have read in the Daily Mail, we have enough influence in Brussels to insist that the Chinese can export their steel to us cheaply.

And also, seemingly, to prevent ( by veto ? ) all the other EU Countries imposing tariffs on the same cheapo Chinese steel ... according to the BBC Breakfast News.

[Mervyn and Trish]

So what about steel? Our steel industry is about to collapse. But it's a strategic industry for defence.

The problem is caused by China dumping cheap, state subsidised steel in the EU. And now the Chinese are imposing a 46% tariff on the specialist steel we send there. So what are the EU doing about it? Resounding silence.

In the meantime, fighting back by subsidising our own steel industry would be illegal under - guess what - EU rules.

The reason that the EU has low tariffs on Chinese steel is entirely down to the UK. Despite what you might think, or have read in the Daily Mail, we have enough influence in Brussels to insist that the Chinese can export their steel to us cheaply.

I wonder why you constantly insult me QB by assuming all my views are based on the Daily Mail? I am old enough and wise enough to make my own mind up. I'm no more influenced by the Daily Mail than the pro-EU BBC or even your own business interests.

[Delboy]

Re British Steel,we make very little in this country of the specialised Hi Tec steel which China has recently put a 46% tariff on.

British Steel. it has been nationalised twice, lost 3bn in three years and sold twice to two very competent companies. Not one fact in relation to Steel making in the UK has anything to do with the EU.

Brexit logic: steel making in the UK is not profitable, we part of the EU = All the EU's fault. If we left then UK steel would be profitable. Rubbish."

We just cannot compete tariffs or no tariffs, compare the salaries of Port Talbot workers, average £40 thousand, starting salary £30 thousand per year, against this of a Chinese worker. Port Talbot employs 4,000 workers but is loosing a £1 million pound a day.

Also if we were to introduce tariffs on steel, what affect would that have on all the steel consuming industries in this country.

[Frank Manning]

It's still very sad though. I knew some of the boys at both Scunthorpe and Llanwern, and even though they used to pull my leg a bit, they were salt of the earth to a man. At Scunthorpe I was often being exhorted to "Get a few pints of John Smiths down you boy!" We'll turn you into a Northerner yet!

[Manoverboard]

Of course it's sad, the whole bloody Country is sad ... tis third World in the making.

If I wor a lad I'd deffo get out of this crap and emigrate to Oz, no doubt about it bonny lad.

Meanwhile I will vote on behalf on my Grand children ( who haven't got a clue what's at stake ), even though I would feel a whole lot happier by voting to Exit.