EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[anniec]

Looks like they'll have the 100,000 signatures by about 10pm.

[screwy]

Signed..Bet they don't listen tho..!

[Mervyn and Trish]

Looking at the government response posted to the petition they've already decided that!

[Onelife]

I wouldn't expect anything different from a government that stopped listening years ago.....even the most die-hard conservative must have come to the realisation that their party is made up of tax evaders, heartless thugs and not fit for purpose ministers. ....its time for the emergence of a new political party.

[towny44]

I wouldn't expect anything different from a government that stopped listening years ago.....even the most die-hard conservative must have come to the realisation that their party is made up of tax evaders, heartless thugs and not fit for purpose ministers. ....its time for the emergence of a new political party.

That's been tried and failed a few times over the years, the Social Democrat spin off from labour, then the merger with Lib Dems, then the LD coalition with the Conservatives not to mention Nigel's merry Ukippers, and the current overcrowded SNP benches which I predict will wither on the vine at the next general election.
No the only real option is the Yanks two party system, which is probably the only safe alternative to a centralist socialist or fascist dictatorship.

[oldbluefox]

No the only real option is the Yanks two party system

Fine unless the only choice you have is the loose cannon that is Trump and the scary, overly ambitious Hilary Clinton. We can't scoff though. Have you looked at the alternatives to Cameron and the Tories. If you think they are bad the rest look even worse.

[Solent Richard]

No the only real option is the Yanks two party system

Fine unless the only choice you have is the loose cannon that is Trump and the scary, overly ambitious Hilary Clinton. We can't scoff though. Have you looked at the alternatives to Cameron and the Tories. If you think they are bad the rest look even worse.

You are spot on OldBlueFox. There is no alternative at present.

Which is probably why the better option is to vote for Brexit and keep one's fingers crossed that David Cameron will step down after loosing the vote.

Whatever happens, he is going to join that list of disgraceful Conservative Prime Ministers that include Ted Heath and John Major.

[towny44]

No the only real option is the Yanks two party system

Fine unless the only choice you have is the loose cannon that is Trump and the scary, overly ambitious Hilary Clinton. We can't scoff though. Have you looked at the alternatives to Cameron and the Tories. If you think they are bad the rest look even worse.

You are spot on OldBlueFox. There is no alternative at present.

Which is probably why the better option is to vote for Brexit and keep one's fingers crossed that David Cameron will step down after loosing the vote.

Whatever happens, he is going to join that list of disgraceful Conservative Prime Ministers that include Ted Heath and John Major.

I always thought John Major drew the short straw, after all he did win a general election, something Gordon Brown failed to achieve, and he was never forgiven by some for stabbing Maggie in the back.

[oldbluefox]

He was the one who developed 'rights'. What he failed to include was 'responsibilities'.
I see them all as a nest of vipers and have little faith in any of them - except Frank Field, the only one who speaks with any conviction. He was told to think 'the unthinkable', was stabbed in the back by Blair when he did and replaced by that revolting Harmann woman who once told a PO worker on £14000pa 'Well there are winners and losers!'

[Onelife]

I wouldn't expect anything different from a government that stopped listening years ago.....even the most die-hard conservative must have come to the realisation that their party is made up of tax evaders, heartless thugs and not fit for purpose ministers. ....its time for the emergence of a new political party.

That's been tried and failed a few times over the years, the Social Democrat spin off from labour, then the merger with Lib Dems, then the LD coalition with the Conservatives not to mention Nigel's merry Ukippers, and the current overcrowded SNP benches which I predict will wither on the vine at the next general election.
No the only real option is the Yanks two party system, which is probably the only safe alternative to a centralist socialist or fascist dictatorship.

Hi towny...had we had proportional representation then the political landscape might look a whole lot different to what it dose now. It could be argued that the lib-dems would have been in a far stronger position to bolster their leadership claims had PP been in place. (prior to the 2010 elections)..However a lot of water has passed under London bridge since then and there's no point in arguing what could or might have been. What is obvious is that our political system has been hijacked by those with money resulting in a political system whereby .....'whoever pays the piper calls the tune'.

Perhaps a two party system is the way forward but until such time that this country can deliver politicians/ministers who have some expertise in the areas they are susposed to administer then we will continue to have a dysfunctional government made up of politicians not fit for purpose and swayed by the powers of influence

l'll be voting for the OBF party when he decides to stand

Regards

Keith

[Frank Manning]

Yes, the way things are going we will have a choice between Comrade Corbyn, or Loony Boris at the next election. Then we really will be the laughing stock of the world. I wont vote Tory if they stab Cameron in the back, and I wont vote Labour until they get rid of these loonie lefties, and also the hypocritical pseudo socialists (Scrap public schools ; but not until I've had my child educated there. Oh and keep your hands off my property empire). Perhaps the Liberals will have a resurgence.

I agree Keith. We need a Centre party, they would have a broader appeal to the silent majority than the present lot.

[Silver_Shiney]

He was the one who developed 'rights'. What he failed to include was 'responsibilities'.
I see them all as a nest of vipers and have little faith in any of them - except Frank Field, the only one who speaks with any conviction. He was told to think 'the unthinkable', was stabbed in the back by Blair when he did and replaced by that revolting Harmann woman who once told a PO worker on £14000pa 'Well there are winners and losers!'

I agree - Mr Field is the only prominent politician who seems to have any integrity. A Conservative government would do well to offer him a Cabinet post.

[Silver_Shiney]

No the only real option is the Yanks two party system

Fine unless the only choice you have is the loose cannon that is Trump and the scary, overly ambitious Hilary Clinton. We can't scoff though. Have you looked at the alternatives to Cameron and the Tories. If you think they are bad the rest look even worse.

Talking to my American DIL last night, she's voting for Trump . Her view is that, as a successful businessman, he may be in a position to sort out the USA's finances. She's got a point. He knows diddly-squit about politics but, then again, when I was employed on "work study / organisational effectiveness", we went into situations to advise on things we knew nothing about (eg a cook would go in to look at an engineering matter) simply because we'd have no preconceptions or bias to bring to the table. It worked.

I still wouldn't vote for Trump myself though. It could be argued that Boris is our equivalent and, although I think he's a buffoon, I think he's a fairly honest buffoon and has brought all his skeletons out of the cupboard. I may be wrong.....

[Manoverboard]

It would be nice to have proportional representation and for everybody to go round and round in ever decreasing circles hoping that everybody will eventually arrive at a conclusion ... hang on, we already have one of those and we are about to cast a vote to escape from it.

I think that Cameron is only guilty of trying to protect the business reputation of his deceased father, at least he paid his Tax liabilities in full.

What caustic comments will you lefties make when they expose the Panamanian connections with Teflon Tony and Chums ?

[towny44]

I do think the media are overplaying the Panama tax haven story which of us, in the past, given a legal way of avoiding paying all our tax liabilities would not have considered something similar if the savings were large enough.
In fact I have always assumed that most self employed do fiddle their returns to minimise their tax payments, and a lot of these will be journalists.
When working as a buyer I never disclosed the value of any perks or xmas gifts I received, in fact during the 70s and 80s I don't think I even knew I should.
The current view does seem to be against tax avoidance and I assume most agree that this is a step in the right direction, but what happened in the past should not keep being trawled over, especially by two faced journalists.

[Frank Manning]

I agree Towny, sometimes those moronic sharks in the media think they are the "Story" with their mindless attempts to bring people down so that they can write purile headlines aka The Sun :- "IT WOS THE SUN WOT WON IT", and "UP YOURS DELORS".

Sorry but I like Cameron. He is trying to get it right. But they smell blood and start a feeding frenzy. Cameron cant even rely on friends in the Tory party because they are all turning into a bunch of rabid Loonies baying for his blood, clambering over each other to get the top job for themselves. It's 1976 all over again.

[Solent Richard]

I do think the media are overplaying the Panama tax haven story which of us, in the past, given a legal way of avoiding paying all our tax liabilities would not have considered something similar if the savings were large enough.
In fact I have always assumed that most self employed do fiddle their returns to minimise their tax payments, and a lot of these will be journalists.
When working as a buyer I never disclosed the value of any perks or xmas gifts I received, in fact during the 70s and 80s I don't think I even knew I should.
The current view does seem to be against tax avoidance and I assume most agree that this is a step in the right direction, but what happened in the past should not keep being trawled over, especially by two faced journalists.

Nice point Towny.

I'm a self confessed 'Tax Avoider'.

Nothing illegal in that.

[Silver_Shiney]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

[Solent Richard]

Not according to The Independent...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74791.html

[Silver_Shiney]

What they call "evasion" is what I call "avoidance". You owe tax but won't pay.

What they call "avoidance" is what we called "mitigation" when I worked in financial services. You find ways of reducing your tax bill.

[Dark Knight]

as the topic is circling the drain, I saw a rather interesting piece on the whole pantomime this morning where the rather astute talking head said " neither side has any facts, all they have is supposition"
which sums it up nicely I thought

[Solent Richard]

What they call "evasion" is what I call "avoidance". You owe tax but won't pay.

What they call "avoidance" is what we called "mitigation" when I worked in financial services. You find ways of reducing your tax bill.

Hi Silver Shiney.

Sounds straight out of the Donald Trump book of diplomacy.

Frankly I don't care because by using a perfectly legitimate mechanism I avoided a SIX figure Capital Gains Tax bill when we sold the hotel.

[barney]

as the topic is circling the drain, I saw a rather interesting piece on the whole pantomime this morning where the rather astute talking head said " neither side has any facts, all they have is supposition"
which sums it up nicely I thought

That hits the nail on the head DK

Both sides state their opinion as fact

It really annoys me !

[Dark Knight]

As it does me , Barney
far too much fear factor and personal agendas and not enough hard facts, whichever source I look at they all have their own agenda and it is difficult to find unbiased, factual answers to any of the questions posed

[Quizzical Bob]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.