EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[Silver_Shiney]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

semantics...

[Quizzical Bob]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

semantics...

Much more than that. It's a matter of Law. It has been determined by a judicial decision that you are entitled to arrange your affairs so as to minimise your tax liability.

Evasion, on the other hand, could land you in jail.

[towny44]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

semantics...

Much more than that. It's a matter of Law. It has been determined by a judicial decision that you are entitled to arrange your affairs so as to minimise your tax liability.

Evasion, on the other hand, could land you in jail.

I suppose we should expect a pro EU supporter to be in favour of something decreed by Shyster lawyers, rather than common sense.

[Silver_Shiney]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

semantics...

Much more than that. It's a matter of Law. It has been determined by a judicial decision that you are entitled to arrange your affairs so as to minimise your tax liability.

Evasion, on the other hand, could land you in jail.

Evasion is avoidance and, as you say, is illegal. You are, indeed, entitled to take legal measures to minimise the amount you pay.

But what would I know? I only worked in the industry for 8+ years....

[Onelife]

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

semantics...

Much more than that. It's a matter of Law. It has been determined by a judicial decision that you are entitled to arrange your affairs so as to minimise your tax liability.

Evasion, on the other hand, could land you in jail.

Evasion is avoidance and, as you say, is illegal. You are, indeed, entitled to take legal measures to minimise the amount you pay.

But what would I know? I only worked in the industry for 8+ years....

Hi QB....as you say we are all entitled to arrange our affairs so as to minimise our tax liability but very few of us will ever be in a position to employ the services of tax guru's who have the ability manipulate a tax system which the majority of UK citizens have to abide by.

Regards

Keith

[oldbluefox]

Perhaps if everybody in the country paid the tax they should (without the skills of a creative accountant) we could all be paying less or could afford better roads, schools, hospitals etc. Just saying.............

[Mervyn and Trish]

Perhaps if everybody in the country paid the tax they should (without the skills of a creative accountant) we could all be paying less or could afford better roads, schools, hospitals etc. Just saying.............

Just agreeing. It might be legal to minimise your tax through these off shore shysters, but it's immoral and anyone who does it should also avoid using public services such as the NHS.

[towny44]

Perhaps if everybody in the country paid the tax they should (without the skills of a creative accountant) we could all be paying less or could afford better roads, schools, hospitals etc. Just saying.............

Just agreeing. It might be legal to minimise your tax through these off shore shysters, but it's immoral and anyone who does it should also avoid using public services such as the NHS.

I suspect they already do that Merv, so not really a suitable punishment, but I guess we could dream one up if we put our minds to it.

[cruisecatcher]

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

semantics...

Much more than that. It's a matter of Law. It has been determined by a judicial decision that you are entitled to arrange your affairs so as to minimise your tax liability.

Evasion, on the other hand, could land you in jail.

Evasion is avoidance and, as you say, is illegal. You are, indeed, entitled to take legal measures to minimise the amount you pay.

But what would I know? I only worked in the industry for 8+ years....

But avoidance isn't evasion... There's a lot of confusion, I would say especially amongst those who make their living in the field.

[Silver_Shiney]

Welcome to the forum, cruisecatcher

Maybe things have moved on since I left financial services 11 or so years ago. The principle remains the same, whatever you call it - if you owe tax, cough up!

[Solent Richard]

tax avoidance is illegal. Tax mitigation is legal

Evasion is illegal. Avoidance is not only legal but you have a legal right to do it, almost an obligation.

Yep. And that is what makes these all to envious socialists look rather inept when levelling charges against the Prime Minister.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Well I've just read the Government's £9million leaflet and I'm none the wiser. It's full of the usual propoganda with no evidence to back it up. All the possible disadavantages of leaving are presented as this will happen, rather than this might. All the disadvantages of staying are brushed over.

A classic line is to say we do control our borders, because we still check all passports, without mentioning that we have no right to refuse entry to an EU passport holder, even if they have no job to come to here.

And they point out the benefits of us having access to free health care when travelling in Europe, while ignoring the fact that some EU countries, Spain being an example, turn their noses up at the E111 and still demand money, or that the flow to use free healthcare is very much more inwards than outwards with huge impact on the NHS.

Still out.

[qbman1]

I thought much the same Merv. Call me naive but I was hoping for something to set out the facts but it is most certainly not an "information" document.

In the immigration section it says that immigrants will not have full access to benefits until they "have worked her for up to four years", How meaningless is that ? It could mean anything. Also, the best they can do on freedom to limit immigration is throw up a comparison with Norway.

[Solent Richard]

Well I've just read the Government's £9million leaflet and I'm none the wiser. It's full of the usual propoganda with no evidence to back it up. All the possible disadavantages of leaving are presented as this will happen, rather than this might. All the disadvantages of staying are brushed over.

A classic line is to say we do control our borders, because we still check all passports, without mentioning that we have no right to refuse entry to an EU passport holder, even if they have no job to come to here.

And they point out the benefits of us having access to free health care when travelling in Europe, while ignoring the fact that some EU countries, Spain being an example, turn their noses up at the E111 and still demand money, or that the flow to use free healthcare is very much more inwards than outwards with huge impact on the NHS.

Still out.

Always out.

[Silver_Shiney]

My SIL is voting to stay in.

His rationale is this: the EU is finished, it's a sinking ship that will go down in the not too distant future. He thinks it better to wait and board the lifeboats at the appropriate time rather than jump ship now and be overwhelmed by the tsunami when it does all collapse.

There's a strange sort of logic in there....

Somewhere....

I'm still for OUT

[qbman1]

Our small sample of right-thinking people are overwhelmingly for "out" - so who are all these people who are supposedly going to vote to keep us in ?

[Silver_Shiney]

A large sample of left-thinking people?

[qbman1]

It's all them bleedin' heart liberals if you ask me !!

[oldbluefox]

Just had a quick glance to see if it will affect my chances of getting to Barcelona and Madrid in the Champions League next season!!! My vote could depend on it.

Seriously it gives a list of data showing the percentages of our share of exports to the EU. However nowhere does it show the deficit in trade with the EU nor does it explain why we are paying into the EU coffers to enjoy the benefits of this trade deficit. Is this really the best the government could come up with?
The taxpayer has just shelled out £9million for a worthless piece of Bremain propaganda. What a scandalous waste of money.

[anniec]

Our small sample of right-thinking people are overwhelmingly for "out" - so who are all these people who are supposedly going to vote to keep us in ?

Probably younger people, who won't bother to turn out and vote. I hope.

[qbman1]

Just had a quick glance to see if it will affect my chances of getting to Barcelona and Madrid in the Champions League next season!!! My vote could depend on it.

Seriously it gives a list of data showing the percentages of our share of exports to the EU. However nowhere does it show the deficit in trade with the EU nor does it explain why we are paying into the EU coffers to enjoy the benefits of this trade deficit. Is this really the best the government could come up with?
The taxpayer has just shelled out £9million for a worthless piece of Bremain propaganda. What a scandalous waste of money.

You mean like the overseas aid to fund India's space programme ?!

[oldbluefox]

The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows what the outcome of leaving the EU will be. There will be gains and there will be losses, advantages and disadvantages which, in time will need to be ironed out. My impression is that the EU needs us more than we need them. We know what will happen if we vote to remain and that prospect does not inspire me. Essentially, in many ways the EU is a lumbering, over administered white elephant providing employment and a generous lifestyle for failed politicians and bureaucrats. Do they provide the benefits to this country which we expect? Not for me.
I voted, many years ago, for Britain to join the Common Market. Given the same choice I would almost certainly vote the same way. I did not vote for a federal Europe so where did that come from?

[Solent Richard]

Just had a quick glance to see if it will affect my chances of getting to Barcelona and Madrid in the Champions League next season!!! My vote could depend on it.

Seriously it gives a list of data showing the percentages of our share of exports to the EU. However nowhere does it show the deficit in trade with the EU nor does it explain why we are paying into the EU coffers to enjoy the benefits of this trade deficit. Is this really the best the government could come up with?
The taxpayer has just shelled out £9million for a worthless piece of Bremain propaganda. What a scandalous waste of money.

Cracking result yesterday OBF.

You can always count on the 'blue' corner.

Back on track, mine hasn't arrived yet but I have the address to send it to, negative stamp of course...

Whitney Conservative Association

58-60 High Street

Witney 
OX28 6HJ

[Mervyn and Trish]

My SIL is voting to stay in.

His rationale is this: the EU is finished, it's a sinking ship that will go down in the not too distant future. He thinks it better to wait and board the lifeboats at the appropriate time rather than jump ship now and be overwhelmed by the tsunami when it does all collapse.

There's a strange sort of logic in there....

Somewhere....

I'm still for OUT

If I had advance information that a ship was going down I think I'd definitely disembark asap rather than waiting to take my chance with the lifeboats. Titanic anybody?

[johnds]

This seems to have gone off topic !!
The same words have been used in many different ways so clarity is absent
However the LEGAL position is crystal clear - at least to me - who qualified as a Chartered Accountant 50 years ago.

Tax mitigation is perfectly legal and in my view moral. It covers for example paying money into a pension scheme to obtain tax relief on the contributions. It may also cover such things as the deed of arrangement that Ed Miliband did after his father's death. (Note anything similar to the present debacle ?)

Tax Avoidance is also perfectly legal, it was the subject of dicta many years ago which said that a taxpayer is perfectly able to arrange his affairs so as to reduce the tax otherwise due. This could apply to David Camerons gifts from his mother and equally perhaps to what the Milibands did. I regard that as completely moral. However to the disgrace of my profession there are firms who use the law to devise artificial arrangements which may be legal and may pass srutiny in the courts and therefore be legal but in my view are not moral. Some may say that morality has nothing to do with the law but in my view morality is a key tenet in life.

In recent years HMRC require the disclosure of the use of any "Tax Avoiance Scheme " on tax returns and will challenge it where they feel justified.
There is also increasingly complicated "Transfer Pricing Policy" legislation aimed at trying to stop firms such as St*rb*cks in the USA for example selling coffee to themselves in the UK via weird African nations ensuring that their UK company makes a loss and all the profit is in low tax countries.
Obviously this legislation isnt having the desired effect.

Tax Evasion is downright dishonesty and is illegal. It covers hiding income by underdeclaring it, any form of untruth and also those things that many might consider trivial like paying the plumber in cash ( save the VAT gov)