EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[oldbluefox]

Don't get too excited SR. As long as you can read Ladybird Book 2c you'll be fine. It doesn't tell you a lot which you haven't heard before. It hardly gives any facts so having read it you are no better off. In other words, a disgraceful waste of taxpayers' money which could have been better spent elsewhere.

The wins keep coming as we approach the impossible dream but I don't like to think about it too much in case we come unstuck. The trouble is I can't STOP thinking about it!!!

[johnds]

Don't get too excited SR. As long as you can read Ladybird Book 2c you'll be fine. It doesn't tell you a lot which you haven't heard before. It hardly gives any facts so having read it you are no better off. In other words, a disgraceful waste of taxpayers' money which could have been better spent elsewhere.

The wins keep coming as we approach the impossible dream but I don't like to think about it too much in case we come unstuck. The trouble is I can't STOP thinking about it!!!

Mine is on its way to No 10 as we "speak"

[Solent Richard]

This seems to have gone off topic !!
The same words have been used in many different ways so clarity is absent
However the LEGAL position is crystal clear - at least to me - who qualified as a Chartered Accountant 50 years ago.

Tax mitigation is perfectly legal and in my view moral. It covers for example paying money into a pension scheme to obtain tax relief on the contributions. It may also cover such things as the deed of arrangement that Ed Miliband did after his father's death. (Note anything similar to the present debacle ?)

Tax Avoidance is also perfectly legal, it was the subject of dicta many years ago which said that a taxpayer is perfectly able to arrange his affairs so as to reduce the tax otherwise due. This could apply to David Camerons gifts from his mother and equally perhaps to what the Milibands did. I regard that as completely moral. However to the disgrace of my profession there are firms who use the law to devise artificial arrangements which may be legal and may pass srutiny in the courts and therefore be legal but in my view are not moral. Some may say that morality has nothing to do with the law but in my view morality is a key tenet in life.

In recent years HMRC require the disclosure of the use of any "Tax Avoiance Scheme " on tax returns and will challenge it where they feel justified.
There is also increasingly complicated "Transfer Pricing Policy" legislation aimed at trying to stop firms such as St*rb*cks in the USA for example selling coffee to themselves in the UK via weird African nations ensuring that their UK company makes a loss and all the profit is in low tax countries.
Obviously this legislation isnt having the desired effect.

Tax Evasion is downright dishonesty and is illegal. It covers hiding income by underdeclaring it, any form of untruth and also those things that many might consider trivial like paying the plumber in cash ( save the VAT gov)

Yep, and with a little help of one of your brethren my wife and I did just that.

Profit into new venture = nil CGT.

[Solent Richard]

If anything is immoral in the tax world it is double taxation.

The worst example is Inheritance Tax.

Taxed on making it and taxed when passing it on.

[Solent Richard]

Don't get too excited SR. As long as you can read Ladybird Book 2c you'll be fine. It doesn't tell you a lot which you haven't heard before. It hardly gives any facts so having read it you are no better off. In other words, a disgraceful waste of taxpayers' money which could have been better spent elsewhere.

The wins keep coming as we approach the impossible dream but I don't like to think about it too much in case we come unstuck. The trouble is I can't STOP thinking about it!!!

Mine is on its way to No 10 as we "speak"

Good on you Sir.

[anniec]

Don't get too excited SR. As long as you can read Ladybird Book 2c you'll be fine. It doesn't tell you a lot which you haven't heard before. It hardly gives any facts so having read it you are no better off. In other words, a disgraceful waste of taxpayers' money which could have been better spent elsewhere.

The wins keep coming as we approach the impossible dream but I don't like to think about it too much in case we come unstuck. The trouble is I can't STOP thinking about it!!!

Mine is on its way to No 10 as we "speak"

As is mine, posted to Downing Street today.

[Onelife]

Not sure if this is reflective of all students but l asked my daughter who is studying at York University how she thought her friends would vote in the EU Referendum. She said that she and all her friends would be voting to stay in the EU which is quite worrying for us Brixiters as there's an awful lot of students out there who could just tip the balance come voting day.

[Quizzical Bob]

Not sure if this is reflective of all students but l asked my daughter who is studying at York University how she thought her friends would vote in the EU Referendum. She said that she and all her friends would be voting to stay in the EU which is quite worrying for us Brixiters as there's an awful lot of students out there who could just tip the balance come voting day.

Let's hope so. It is their future after all.

[oldbluefox]

I don't subscribe to this 'it's their future' idiom and the implication that the result of the referendum will only affect the younger generation which seems to be very popular with the Bremain faction. I am getting the impression that the Bremain support is focusing its attention on an emotional, doom and gloom fear tactic and glossing over the shortfalls of our EU membership (understandable from their point of view). Hopefully the younger generation will see through this charade.
We had a presenter on TV the other morning who felt anybody over 60 should not be voting at all!!! Hello, we live in a democracy my dear.
In or out it is a result which will affect everybody in the country.

[Onelife]

Not sure if this is reflective of all students but l asked my daughter who is studying at York University how she thought her friends would vote in the EU Referendum. She said that she and all her friends would be voting to stay in the EU which is quite worrying for us Brixiters as there's an awful lot of students out there who could just tip the balance come voting day.

Let's hope so. It is their future after all.

Indeed QB......that's why l tried to convince my daughter that it will be short term pain (5-10 years) for long term gain.

Regards

Keith

[Dark Knight]

It seems that it does not matter which side of the argument people are on, as I have yet to see or read an honest appraisal of our position if we stay or leave
Neither side has any facts to offer or any worthwhile options
Much like the circular and insular comments being posted here

[Solent Richard]

It seems that it does not matter which side of the argument people are on, as I have yet to see or read an honest appraisal of our position if we stay or leave
Neither side has any facts to offer or any worthwhile options
Much like the circular and insular comments being posted here

Hmnnnn.

Having been alerted at the breakfast table by incoming email alert I could hardly resist a response to 'insular comments being posted here'.

Would that be the 'insular' that my dictionary equates to...."ignorant of or uninterested in cultures, ideas, or peoples outside one's own experience".

Because, if it does, that is exactly why the Europhobes are pursuing project fear: in the hope those poor ignorant Brits (their interpretation) who have a vote in this matter will be hoodwinked by their doomed and failing project.

What country, or group of countries, would part with €4 Billion, and a promise to accept Turkish nationals visa free entrance to Europe, in return for accepting the return of a couple of hundred blatantly economic refugees.

Always happy to discuss issues of national importance.

[towny44]

It seems that it does not matter which side of the argument people are on, as I have yet to see or read an honest appraisal of our position if we stay or leave
Neither side has any facts to offer or any worthwhile options
Much like the circular and insular comments being posted here

As a Brexit supporter I understand the difficulties of outlining a successful outcome.
You could perhaps foresee that the major EU federalist supporters might want to "punish" the UK for leaving, as a deterrent to others who might be considering leaving; this scenario would be unlikely to lead to an acceptable trade negotiation for the UK.
Conversely, as we have a major trade imbalance with the EU, it could be argued that big business in the EU will lean on the politicians to ensure that they do not lose exports, which should then lead to an acceptable negotiation for the UK, in my view the more likely pragmatic outcome.
On the Bremain side the most optimistic outcome for the UK is that the EU honour the few weak demands that DC has secured, on the down side they might never implement any of them.
The choice is yours.

[Dark Knight]

Towny, the choice is ours but based on what evidence?
I see nothing but scaremongering on both sides and few if any facts

[Solent Richard]

It seems that it does not matter which side of the argument people are on, as I have yet to see or read an honest appraisal of our position if we stay or leave
Neither side has any facts to offer or any worthwhile options
Much like the circular and insular comments being posted here

As a Brexit supporter I understand the difficulties of outlining a successful outcome.
You could perhaps foresee that the major EU federalist supporters might want to "punish" the UK for leaving, as a deterrent to others who might be considering leaving; this scenario would be unlikely to lead to an acceptable trade negotiation for the UK.
Conversely, as we have a major trade imbalance with the EU, it could be argued that big business in the EU will lean on the politicians to ensure that they do not lose exports, which should then lead to an acceptable negotiation for the UK, in my view the more likely pragmatic outcome.
On the Bremain side the most optimistic outcome for the UK is that the EU honour the few weak demands that DC has secured, on the down side they might never implement any of them.
The choice is yours.

"Conversely, as we have a major trade imbalance with the EU".

Exactly. And with even more trouble piling up for European nations this week the last thing they would want is for us to place an embargo or tariffs on their exports.

Conversely of course the Frogs would riot in the streets if we were to cease sending them our huîtres.

[barney]

"The EU would not give us free access to the European market"

That is a 'statement' often quoted by the Stay team.

But is not based on one shred of fact. Why would they not give us free access as a major customer?

"We would have to renegotiate all trade deals with all other countries"

Again stated as fact with no basis of truth.

Why would we? We could simply say to AN Other country, we'll keep it all terms the same as the previous EU deal, which you are clearly happy with, so, no need for renegotiation.

As AK says, it's all smoke and mirrors

What I do know for a fact is that another EU member country is keeping a close eye and have said that if it's an exit vote, they may follow suit.

[oldbluefox]

Maybe the lack of facts is because there are no facts to support in or out. We do have trade figures and they are not good. We also know how much we pay in and how much we receive in return. The rest is based on the status quo and what impact our membership of the EU has on the rest of the UK. In many cases this is not good either, in my opinion.
You takes your pick and makes your choices.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Another interesting thing I note from Dave's leaflet - the government believes it is in our interest to stay in the EU.

So why didn't they just say that and put it in their manifesto as a pledge instead of giving us a choice which is now causing ripples and might reach a conclusion they believe is bad for the country? After all Labour are in favour of in, so they wouldn't have made it an election issue.

Well we know why, to try to buy off UKIP voters.

So they believe it is in the country's interests to stay in, but not at risk of losing power. So party interests above UK interests. Hmmmm.

I'm still out. In fact I was out before. Dave's meaningless negotiation with Europe (on a par with Neville Chamberlain's piece of paper) made me more out. And now Dave's leaflet has made me even more out!

Perhaps he should start arguing for out and then perhaps I'd be in?

[anniec]

And in the leaflet is an unauthorised photograph, taken by a Brexit supporter. He's not a happy boy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-36024016

[Onelife]

Another interesting thing I note from Dave's leaflet - the government believes it is in our interest to stay in the EU.

So why didn't they just say that and put it in their manifesto as a pledge instead of giving us a choice which is now causing ripples and might reach a conclusion they believe is bad for the country? After all Labour are in favour of in, so they wouldn't have made it an election issue.

Well we know why, to try to buy off UKIP voters.

So they believe it is in the country's interests to stay in, but not at risk of losing power. So party interests above UK interests. Hmmmm.

I'm still out. In fact I was out before. Dave's meaningless negotiation with Europe (on a par with Neville Chamberlain's piece of paper) made me more out. And now Dave's leaflet has made me even more out!

Perhaps he should start arguing for out and then perhaps I'd be in?

The Conservative party have a pretty good record when it comes to u-tuns so l wouldn't put anything past them.

   “I’ll be battling for Britain. If we can get a good deal I’ll take that deal but I will not take a deal that doesn’t meet what we need,” Cameron told reporters as he arrived for the meeting in Brussels.

Well it doesn't Dave so why have you gone back on your word?

Vote out and let's start rebuildiing our country again.

[oldbluefox]

The Conservative party have a pretty good record when it comes to u-tuns so l wouldn't put anything past them.

   “I’ll be battling for Britain. If we can get a good deal I’ll take that deal but I will not take a deal that doesn’t meet what we need,” Cameron told reporters as he arrived for the meeting in Brussels.

Well it doesn't Dave so why have you gone back on your word?

Vote out and let's start rebuildiing our country again.

Don't tell us OL. Tell your daughter and all her mates!!

[Onelife]

Don't worry Foxy.....l made her walk the last 20 miles when l drove her back up to York....that'll teach her not to argue with her dad

[oldbluefox]

You are just so persuasive OL!!!!

[Frank Manning]

I will still vote STAY.

[Onelife]

I will still vote STAY.

Let me know when you want a lift to York Frank