EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[oldbluefox]

Just think if we do decide to vote 'out' we may lose our place in the 'Eurovision Song Contest' Now that would be a reason to vote out.

I might have to re-consider. I hadn't thought of that!!!!

[Frank Manning]

"We are in control of our own sovereignty whatever people think"

That single statement is 100% incorrect Frank.

The whole ethos of the EU ultimately, is total political integration. One big United States of Europe with Brussels as the Capital.
The rest of the EU understand this and accepts it, but the UK government sweeps it under the carpet, to keep us subservient, as they did in the 70's
You are being lied to my friend. That is one of the few absolute facts in this debate.

Do some serious research into this Frank & Mob if you have the time and inclination.
You will be shocked at what you find.
Have a look at EFDD !

Barney, I did my research, and I studied economics academically. It is a fact that at any time our parliament can vote and put into law a bill repealing any of the previous ones which may have affected our sovereignty. This is clarified at www.parliament.uk/about/how/sovereignty/
That is not the Government position it is the parliamentary position.

The trouble is that IMHO the Brexit positions are a smoke screen appealing to an out dated supposed patriotism, intended to disguise the unpleasant effects which exit will mean. It stems from about 30 Tory rebel MP's and UKIP. Their leaders don't inspire me with confidence.

[barney]

What you fail to mention Frank is that the European Court of Justice out-trumps our highest Court

That is why certain cases that cannot be resolved nationally end up there

That, I'm afraid is another 100% fact.

And now today, with the real migration figures coming out, it's absolutely proved without doubt that there is a state conspiracy to keep the general population in the dark about the real facts.

My question is simply, how many is enough?
You decide.
80 million
90 million
100 million.
120 million

It was announced yesterday that the NHS had treated a record number of people in a year and is creaking under the strain.
No s*it Sherlock!
It's going to isn't it when we don't even know how many people are in the country.

The South East is in constant gridlock. Kent bears the brunt of the illegal migrants.
You can easily see why many have said enough is enough.

If we cannot control entry to our country, which under EU law, we cannot, the you must ask yourself where it all ends.

[Silver_Shiney]

On the one hand, we're told there's a massive difference between the numbers of immigrants arriving and the number of NINOs issued. On the other hand, the Office for National Statistics say this can be easily explained and disproved. The Treasury also say that immigrants more than pay their way in this country. Maybe I'm too sceptical for my own good, but if there's a governmental conspiracy to keep us in the EU, is it not possibly that the ONS and the Treasury might be, shall we say, a little disingenuous?

[barney]

The Treasury also say that immigrants more than pay their way in this country.

Not in Kent they don't

There are hundreds of thousands of young, single workers working in general agriculture and fruit packing of imported fruit and berries.
They generally live on site in porta cabins and it is generally 99% Eastern European. Mainly Romanians & Bulgarians

They work 35 hrs a week (no paid meal break) for minimum wage of £7.20 an hour
= £252 per week
= £13,104.00 a year
minus £11,000.00 tax allowance
= taxable pay of £2,104
20% tax = £420.00 a year

One or two visits to the hospital or doctors probably writes that off.

I think that your attitude may be formed somewhat by geography.
Ask the people of Peterborough or Boston if there is a migrant problem.
Then ask the good folk of Poole and you'll get a different answer.

[Silver_Shiney]

Hey Barney, it's not my attitude - I clearly said I was very sceptical about the official claims.

[Quizzical Bob]

On the one hand, we're told there's a massive difference between the numbers of immigrants arriving and the number of NINOs issued. On the other hand, the Office for National Statistics say this can be easily explained and disproved. The Treasury also say that immigrants more than pay their way in this country. Maybe I'm too sceptical for my own good, but if there's a governmental conspiracy to keep us in the EU, is it not possibly that the ONS and the Treasury might be, shall we say, a little disingenuous?

NI numbers never have been and never will be an accurate figure of the number of people actually in the country. Everybody knows that apart from those Brexiters trying to fool the gullible. The numbers issued are basically the sum total of everybody who has ever worked in the UK whether they have stayed for 20 days or 20 years.

[Manoverboard]

....
Ask the people of Peterborough .... if there is a migrant problem.

I did last weekend and our visitors agreed that they did have a lot of immigrants in their region but went on to say that they all worked hard and were NOT a problem as far as they were concerned.

No doubt asking other persons or posing a different question would achieve the result required by the person asking the question.

There are a smaller number in Dorset but they also work hard and do not pose any unsolvable problems that we are aware of.

[barney]

QB, you have to apply for an NI number, so it would be reasonable to assume that anyone going to the bother of applying, intended to stay here.

I'll let you in on another little scam that I've heard about.

A EU migrant workers comes to the UK and gets his NI number.

He starts legitimate work, gets paid, and gets his stoppages on the presumption that he will work for 52 weeks.
But he doesn't.
He works for six or seven months and then returns to (say) Bulgaria.
As his final annual salary earned in the UK is below £11,000 he can claim back the previously paid tax on -line.
So, by rights, he can flit in and out as he chooses, but as long as he stays below the threshold, he'll get his tax rebated, so, pays nothing.

Now, I've personally seen no evidence of this, but this is what I've been told is common place.

Another loophole?
Like the sending back of child tax credits to children in eastern Europe who have never set foot in this country?

[Quizzical Bob]

QB, you have to apply for an NI number, so it would be reasonable to assume that anyone going to the bother of applying, intended to stay here.

I'll let you in on another little scam that I've heard about.

A EU migrant workers comes to the UK and gets his NI number.

He starts legitimate work, gets paid, and gets his stoppages on the presumption that he will work for 52 weeks.
But he doesn't.
He works for six or seven months and then returns to (say) Bulgaria.
As his final annual salary earned in the UK is below £11,000 he can claim back the previously paid tax on -line.
So, by rights, he can flit in and out as he chooses, but as long as he stays below the threshold, he'll get his tax rebated, so, pays nothing.

Now, I've personally seen no evidence of this, but this is what I've been told is common place.

Another loophole?
Like the sending back of child tax credits to children in eastern Europe who have never set foot in this country?

Barney,

I'm surprised you would even begin to try that argument. Everyone who has ever worked in the UK will have been given an NI number, some people have been given several. This obviously includes anyone here on a short-term visa or on a student visa who has ever done any form of part-time work. It has been known for decades that the quantity of NI numbers issued far exceeds the number of people in the UK and this has never been an issue before, not even before Nigel Farage was in wet nappies.

I am extremely disappointed that anybody would even think of falling for these weak arguments. If this is the quality of evidence that we are being asked to consider then I hold my head in despair. Unfortunately there are some extremely gullible people who fall for it.

Anyone who works in the UK is subject to the Income Tax laws so why should anybody pay tax on earnings less than the lower earnings limit of £10,600 for the past year, £11,000 for the current year. Wht is wrong with that? Are you suggesting that 'foreigners' should pay different tax to locals?

As for Tax Credits then you should blame Gordon Brown for the horrible complexities and distortions that these cause. They were a particular favourite of his. Again, The tax system is what it is and is the same for everybody (except for the stinking rich of course).

[barney]

my turn again

OK you may be correct QB but I've had the same NI number all of my life, as I expect has everyone else.

I've certainly never heard of it so I checked and apparently it can happen but is very rare. Gov.uk site

BOOOM !

Ref the Tax, no one is suggesting a different tax system for foreign workers but simply highlighting yet another loophole to be exploited.
In a nutshell, come to the UK, work hard for seven months, go back home, have a decent rest, get your tax back and repeat
This was solely in response to the 'Treasury' statement that migrant workers are a benefit to this country
There is no benefit if they use the services provided but contribute nothing.

[Frank Manning]

Well said Sir John Major. Speaking out against a noisy minority of Tory right wingers, or should that be Tory right whingers.

[Quizzical Bob]

my turn again

OK you may be correct QB but I've had the same NI number all of my life, as I expect has everyone else.

I've certainly never heard of it so I checked and apparently it can happen but is very rare. Gov.uk site

BOOOM !

Ref the Tax, no one is suggesting a different tax system for foreign workers but simply highlighting yet another loophole to be exploited.
In a nutshell, come to the UK, work hard for seven months, go back home, have a decent rest, get your tax back and repeat
This was solely in response to the 'Treasury' statement that migrant workers are a benefit to this country
There is no benefit if they use the services provided but contribute nothing.

We can't go on like this for the next 6 weeks, me old mucker

I am one of the biggest critics of the 'open-doors' immigration (lack of) policy that we seem to have followed for the last twenty years. Any calculations of the alleged economic benefits never take into account the capital cost of providing the infrastructure that any immigrant labour will use, capital assets that have been built up over decades by the indigenous population. I just don't believe that leaving the EU would make any difference to the situation. Instead of 172k EU and 191k rest of the world we would merely have 363k from ROTW. We have the power to restrict the 191k at the moment but we don't use it so why should it be any different after Brexit?

The tax system is a gross distortion. There's nothing to stop somebody earning the minimum allowance in each of several countries during various tax years, although dual-tax arrangements should prevent this. Of course there will have been NI contributions from all parties and this is also one of the arguments in favour of indirect taxes such as VAT. Personally I favour a flat-tax system with no allowances, something like 20% would be fair in my opinion.

[oldbluefox]

Brexit, Remain. Rock, hard place.
As for John Major, he is the one who introduced peoples rights but failed to acknowledge they also had responsibilities. He was also the one who had an affair so clearly his judgement has to be brought into question.
As for the Governor of the Bank of England, wasn't he the one who claimed years ago that he would raise interest rates once unemployment fell to 7%? That didn't happen did it?
I don't trust any of them to tell the truth.

[Frank Manning]

OBF re JM/Edwina...I could amuse you with some old Merchant Navy sayings which would probably be very appropriate to that situation, but this is a family site! Personally I think in retrospect he must have been mad, and he probably thinks the same with hindsight.

[towny44]

On the one hand, we're told there's a massive difference between the numbers of immigrants arriving and the number of NINOs issued. On the other hand, the Office for National Statistics say this can be easily explained and disproved. The Treasury also say that immigrants more than pay their way in this country. Maybe I'm too sceptical for my own good, but if there's a governmental conspiracy to keep us in the EU, is it not possibly that the ONS and the Treasury might be, shall we say, a little disingenuous?

NI numbers never have been and never will be an accurate figure of the number of people actually in the country. Everybody knows that apart from those Brexiters trying to fool the gullible. The numbers issued are basically the sum total of everybody who has ever worked in the UK whether they have stayed for 20 days or 20 years.

QB, the issue is not whether NI numbers accurately reflect the total number of workers. The data chosen was new numbers issued to immigrants over a specific, fairly short, period, surely these must be reasonably accurate, and this is where the ONS immigration figures lag well behind the NI data.

[towny44]

Poor Boris he is now accused of comparing the EU to Hitler's Third Reich, how the media twist the facts to suit their plot.
As far as I understand his comments were that the EU was trying create a united Europe and that the Romans, Napoleon and Hitler had all tried this in the past and failed, ergo the current EU plan would likely also fail; and TBH there are already signs of extreme anti EU parties growing in strength in many countries.
In truth there are major differences from being subjugated under the heels of Nazi jackboots to being bamboozled by Brussels' bureaucrats, although I fear the outcome will similarly end in tears.
But I do hope that the remain campaigners jumping on this latest bandwagon soon realise how flimsy their evidence is.

[oldbluefox]

If it weren't so laughable it would be pathetic how the left wing and some of the Remain supporters immediately jumped on the H word ( ) in the same way they have branded Farage as racist when no evidence of racism exists. It's amazing what you can construe when you are selective in what you quote.

[towny44]

Sterling is beginning to show a steady improvement, seems the FX market expects a remain vote, let's all ensure they get a black eye.

[barney]

I'd recommend anyone who is sitting on the fence to watch Brexit The Movie on youtube.

Crowd funded by folk who want to exit the EU

It's quite lengthy but quite an eye opener to the inside workings of Brussels.

If you can watch that and still say, yep I'd like to stay, then I seriously give up.

[Frank Manning]

I realise that on this "friendly forum" if I disagree with the Brexits I will be howled down. However it isn't about black eyes, or Brexit The Movie. It is about the future of our people, and all this £350M a day, and stop immigration, business is a smoke screen. We get back a significant amount of what we pay in, and Brexit will not stop immigration. We have benefited from being in the EU, it is just that the Daily Wail etc will never report the benefits. This week a friend with business in Cornnwall assured me that without EU investment the main route into Cornwall would still have been a single carriageway driver's nightmare. She is needless to say voting Remain.

[barney]

You are fully entitled to your opinion Frank, as is everyone else.

Every individual will vote as they see fit.

I would add however that any money coming from the EU for any project in the UK is simply giving some back of that which we've given them in the first place.

We are a massive net contributor, another 100% fact.

[Silver_Shiney]

I realise that on this "friendly forum" if I disagree with the Brexits I will be howled down. However it isn't about black eyes, or Brexit The Movie. It is about the future of our people, and all this £350M a day, and stop immigration, business is a smoke screen.We get back a significant amount of what we pay in, and Brexit will not stop immigration. We have benefited from being in the EU, it is just that the Daily Wail etc will never report the benefits. This week a friend with business in Cornnwall assured me that without EU investment the main route into Cornwall would still have been a single carriageway driver's nightmare. She is needless to say voting Remain.

Agreed - but we're actually paying in more than we get back. If we didn't pay the EU fees, we'd have had the money available to upgrade this country's infrastructure.

Brexit would (should?) allow us to impose our own immigration controls. Yes, it's a pain in the jacksie going through all the tedium of getting in to America/Australia to visit or live, but we're all happy to do it and have no option but to accept those countries' rulings if they say no. Why can't we be the same?

[oldbluefox]

In this part of the country I see little by way of benefit from our EU membership so I understand those who have benefited will want to remain. Apparently EU have paid for the harbours in Whitehaven and Maryport to be dredged but as they have decimated our fishing fleet I am not quite sure of the benefits. They have also paid for a leisure centre in Maryport.
Meanwhile we suffer high unemployment, an archaic rail connection down the coast, main arterial roads which are potholed and still two lane, hospitals which are on their knees and so outdated we cannot recruit doctors, crumbling Victorian school buildings etc etc. However I can rest easy at night knowing the harbours have been dredged even if the rivers haven't and have flooded every few years. Meanwhile bridges which were washed away or damaged are still being repaired. With a government which thinks Manchester is north I don't feel much optimism for improvement especially since Tony Blair had to be rescued through a back door when he came to Carlisle following the foot and mouth outbreak!!
It does me no good at all to go away on a cruise and see the changes in infrastructure in those countries which are EU beneficiaries and then to return home to see a country which is struggling especially when we (along with Germany) are the only two who are EU contributors.
There is an interesting article here which adds a bit more flesh to the argument.
I cannot believe the amount of waste this organisation creates in operating between Brussels and Strasbourg. There is so much which is wrong about this perpetual gravy train I cannot even contemplate voting Remain. It's out for me - but you're still our friend Frank.

[barney]

I realise that on this "friendly forum" if I disagree with the Brexits I will be howled down. However it isn't about black eyes, or Brexit The Movie. It is about the future of our people, and all this £350M a day, and stop immigration, business is a smoke screen. We get back a significant amount of what we pay in, and Brexit will not stop immigration. We have benefited from being in the EU, it is just that the Daily Wail etc will never report the benefits. This week a friend with business in Cornnwall assured me that without EU investment the main route into Cornwall would still have been a single carriageway driver's nightmare. She is needless to say voting Remain.

To be fair Frank, nobody wants immigration stopped

Immigration is not and never has been the issue

The issue for many is the uncontrolled immigration that we currently have by being a member of the EU

Poorly educated low skilled workers can rock up to their hearts content and work for minimum wage while highly skilled and much needed people from outside the EU, with much to offer this country have to apply for visas and have a job to come to.
That condition should apply to all in my opinion.

We need clever people, not more fruit packers.