EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[oldbluefox]

In the interests of levity...........
For anybody who doesn’t fully understand the Euro situation,

it is explained very simply in the picture below........

EU.jpg

Pythagoras' theorem - 24 words.
Lord's Prayer - 66 words.
Archimedes' Principle - 67 words.
10 Commandments - 179 words.
Gettysburg address - 286 words.
US Declaration of Independence - 1,300 words.
US Constitution with all 27 Amendments - 7,818 words.
EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words

[oldbluefox]

To be fair Frank, nobody wants immigration stopped

Immigration is not and never has been the issue

The issue for many is the uncontrolled immigration that we currently have by being a member of the EU

Poorly educated low skilled workers can rock up to their hearts content and work for minimum wage while highly skilled and much needed people from outside the EU, with much to offer this country have to apply for visas and have a job to come to.
That condition should apply to all in my opinion.

We need clever people, not more fruit packers.

Good point Barney.

[Quizzical Bob]

You are fully entitled to your opinion Frank, as is everyone else.

Every individual will vote as they see fit.

I would add however that any money coming from the EU for any project in the UK is simply giving some back of that which we've given them in the first place.

We are a massive net contributor, another 100% fact.

If we left the EU the loss in government income from a reduced economy would dwarf any net payments that we make to the EU. In practice we would probably have to pay an access fee anyway for the EU markets which wouldn't be far away from what we pay now.

If you must find a target for saving money then how about the overseas aid budget which is higher than our EU contribution.

[oldbluefox]

That, as well!! Can we really afford it ( especially when you see some of the corrupt tyrants it helps to support, and when you hear of the waste at the end of the financial year just to spend it up)?

[barney]

How about this for a bit of radical thinking QB

IF we exit the EU, we do a deal that imposes no tariffs either way.

The UK has full and free access to the single market with no contribution, and in return, we give then full and free access to the UK market.

Everyone is a winner.

If they don't like that deal, all the BMW, Merc and Audi dealerships can close overnight and we'll use the land for housing.
French wine and cheese makers can sell to themselves
Spanish ceramic makers and fruit growers can find someone else to sell to
Italian engineering products can sit on the shelves
And ......... so on !

[Silver_Shiney]

f we left the EU the loss in government income from a reduced economy would dwarf any net payments that we make to the EU. In practice we would probably have to pay an access fee anyway for the EU markets which wouldn't be far away from what we pay now.

If you must find a target for saving money then how about the overseas aid budget which is higher than our EU contribution.

We need to do that as well - it is ridiculous paying "aid" to India, which is a nuclear country in the space industry with very highly skilled IT workers, but with abject poverty and a very discriminatory caste system. They should be using the money for space exploration instead to alleviate the suffering of their citizens, not expecting us to do it (if any of that money actually reaches the poor, in the first place). Similarly, the money we spent on routine overseas aid would be better spent getting this country back off its knees until such time as we are better placed to help other nations (sending aid in case of emergencies, like the Nepal earthquake, obviously must continue).

We pay huge fees to stay in this iniquitous organisation and by no means get all of it back in project funding. We have a perfectly good legal system but if the prosecutor/defence doesn't like the verdict, they appeal to the European courts who can, and do, overturn our courts. This must stop and is part and parcel of the British sovereignty that we are losing.

Foxy, are you sure you've got us on the right branch in that cartoon?

[Silver_Shiney]

How about this for a bit of radical thinking QB

IF we exit the EU, we do a deal that imposes no tariffs either way.

The UK has full and free access to the single market with no contribution, and in return, we give then full and free access to the UK market.

Everyone is a winner.

If they don't like that deal, all the BMW, Merc and Audi dealerships can close overnight and we'll use the land for housing.
French wine and cheese makers can sell to themselves
Spanish ceramic makers and fruit growers can find someone else to sell to
Italian engineering products can sit on the shelves
And ......... so on !

less of the common-sense already!!

[barney]

An interesting survey I saw recently from the EU asking existing member states their attitude should the UK leave.

A very high percentage (in the 70's) thought that the UK should be 'punished' with tariffs on goods exported to other EU countries.
When the question was reversed and asked if their exports to the UK should attract a tariff imposed by the EU, surprising it was an overwhelming zero %

Well guys, guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it.

Trade is a two way street that must be mutually beneficial.

We need their marketplace, they need our marketplace

As an example, the UK is BMWs fourth largest market
China, USA, Germany then UK
We are worth billions to BMW and billions to the EU

Would they really walk away from that?
Of course not.
They are teetering on the brink and a 'trade war' would finish the EU off, for sure.

My prediction is with or without the UK, the EU will eventually eat itself anyway.
It's a basket case of an institution.
We need to get out before that happens.

[Mervyn and Trish]

How about this for a bit of radical thinking QB

IF we exit the EU, we do a deal that imposes no tariffs either way.

The UK has full and free access to the single market with no contribution, and in return, we give then full and free access to the UK market.

Everyone is a winner.

If they don't like that deal, all the BMW, Merc and Audi dealerships can close overnight and we'll use the land for housing.
French wine and cheese makers can sell to themselves
Spanish ceramic makers and fruit growers can find someone else to sell to
Italian engineering products can sit on the shelves
And ......... so on !

less of the common-sense already!!

Makes sense to me too. The rest of the EU sells more to us than we do to them so why would they wish to erect trade barriers? And if they did, and we match them, which we would, the income to us through the tariffs we charged would be more than the costs of paying their charges.

[towny44]

...........and we should adjust the company car taxation to ensure that its only worthwhile for recipients to buy cars made in the UK, same thing for motabilty cars.
Any other ideas?

[david63]

Italian engineering products can sit on the shelves

But don't the Italians build our cruise ships?

a very discriminatory caste system

The caste system in India was made illegal several years ago

[barney]

But don't the Italians build our cruise ships?

Great spot David

Can you imagine the MD of Frincanteri being informed that he'll have to up his rates because of tariffs and the work going elsewhere.
They would go into meltdown

[towny44]

But don't the Italians build our cruise ships?

Great spot David

Can you imagine the MD of Frincanteri being informed that he'll have to up his rates because of tariffs and the work going elsewhere.
They would go into meltdown

I don't believe that P&O are likely to order any new ships any time soon, however TUI UK do have a new build on order from Germany or France but of couse they are German owned anyway, and the ordering process for Carnival is mainly from the USA, and they probably screw the price down to a level that probably require EU subsidy, maybe paid for out of our non refundable contributions.

[Quizzical Bob]

How about this for a bit of radical thinking QB

IF we exit the EU, we do a deal that imposes no tariffs either way.

The UK has full and free access to the single market with no contribution, and in return, we give then full and free access to the UK market.

Everyone is a winner.

If they don't like that deal, all the BMW, Merc and Audi dealerships can close overnight and we'll use the land for housing.
French wine and cheese makers can sell to themselves
Spanish ceramic makers and fruit growers can find someone else to sell to
Italian engineering products can sit on the shelves
And ......... so on !

There will be no such deal. Any negotiations would take maybe 10 to 15 years and involve 27 other parliaments, not all of whom like us very much

We need the EU far more than they need us. If you think that international trade is just cars and cheese then you are very much mistaken.

[Silver_Shiney]

a very discriminatory caste system

The caste system in India was made illegal several years ago

Try telling that to the Dalits. Illegal it may be but the caste system is still infull swing

[towny44]

There will be no such deal. Any negotiations would take maybe 10 to 15 years and involve 27 other parliaments, not all of whom like us very much

We need the EU far more than they need us. If you think that international trade is just cars and cheese then you are very much mistaken.

Bob, since you are clearly unable to appreciate that the EU need to trade with us, far more than we need to trade with them, then why should we believe anything you tell us.

[Quizzical Bob]

There will be no such deal. Any negotiations would take maybe 10 to 15 years and involve 27 other parliaments, not all of whom like us very much

We need the EU far more than they need us. If you think that international trade is just cars and cheese then you are very much mistaken.

Bob, since you are clearly unable to appreciate that the EU need to trade with us, far more than we need to trade with them, then why should we believe anything you tell us.

We represent 16% of the EU's exports.
46% of our exports go to the EU.

Believe that.

[towny44]

There will be no such deal. Any negotiations would take maybe 10 to 15 years and involve 27 other parliaments, not all of whom like us very much

We need the EU far more than they need us. If you think that international trade is just cars and cheese then you are very much mistaken.

Bob, since you are clearly unable to appreciate that the EU need to trade with us, far more than we need to trade with them, then why should we believe anything you tell us.

We represent 16% of the EU's exports.
46% of our exports go to the EU.

Believe that.

Where do you get your statistics from?

[Mervyn and Trish]

Percentages are, as always, deceptive. In cash terms the EU sells more to us than we do to them. In cash terms they have more to lose than we do. If we stopped trading with the EU our balance of payments would improve, theirs would worsen.

[david63]

Just looking at the poll results on here they are almost the opposite of the latest "official" poll but the other interesting point that was brought out on the political show last night is that there is a greater percentage (sorry Merv) of elderly voters in favour of leaving than there is younger voters - not sure where the dividing line is.

Now without any disrespect to any members of this site I would guess that explains the divergence.

[oldbluefox]

Now without any disrespect to any members of this site I would guess that explains the divergence.

You speak for yourself!!!!

[barney]

The latest 'poll of polls' shows 55% stay - 45% leave

With the majority of under 40's to stay and the majority of over 60's to leave

So it definitely appears a generational thing.

I think that come June 23rd a few differing factors will swing it either way.

It is accepted that the more 'mature' voter is more inclined to put his/her shoes on and actually get out there and vote.

The weather can also play a part.
Young voters are less inclined to turn out in bad weather

Will England be playing that day?
If so, with most younger people working in the day, they are less inclined to turn out.

Do many of the younger voters even realise the importance of it all.
I spoke to a couple of young blokes a few weeks ago who clearly couldn't give a fig about it all.
They had no interest whatsoever.

Then finally Esther, the fact that the polls are often wildly out, as in the last election.

My prediction today is ............... 52% Stay - 48% Leave
The ayes have it !

[allatc]

Paxo did quite a good prog yesterday trying to show how the EU works.

What really sums up the bureaucratic nightmare the EU has become is that although everyone acknowledges that the monthly move to Strasbourg is a nonsense nobody can change it "because its in the treaty".

[towny44]

For my own benefit I have just been trying to understand some trade statistics and whilst they do seem shrouded in fog I think I have found one quite important fact, although I am sure QBob will tell me I have got it wrong. It seems that with our annual imports of approx 550 billion Euros we would become the EU's largest non EU export market, comfortably exceeding the USA's 370 billion.
If that's the case does anyone not agree that negotiating a satisfactory trade deal with us would be the EU's number one priority following a leave vote?

[barney]

As the gent who owns JML explained towny, you don't NEED a trade deal, just a willingness to trade.

The USA has no trade deal with the EU
China has no trade deal with the EU
India has no trade deal with the EU

The boot is very much on the other foot to the terms agreed when we went in.
We were an economy is tatters and the sick man of Europe.
Now we are a driving force for progress with unemployment half of the Continents and that is with 2.5 million EU citizens coming here to work.

The argument has been bogged down in 'what they will allow us to do'

With a strong team at the helm (not Dave btw) we can get what's best for us, and if the Mandarins running the EU won't play ball, the UK should tell them to do one.

I was reading an article about Poland the other day and how their economy is so linked to ours due to folk sending money back.
They were worried people were going to be sent back.
I'm pretty sure that will never happen, but we may well stop more unqualified from coming in the future