EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[towny44]

No. To my mind the EU is failing miserably and ever closer union is the last thing we need. We are different countries with different cultures and different histories. A common market was a great idea. A united states of Europe is not.

You said earlier that the EU was failing and broken. I raised the somewhat rhetorical question about ever closer union because that cannot happen with the EU in its present format because of the failings that you have already presented. There are so many members that agreement will never be reached. Some people may say that this is what they desire but it won't happen under the present system, and Britain can make sure of that by staying in the EU.

Why do you consider that the EU is 'failing miserably'? What would you rather have it do? To my mind it is working exactly the way it should.

Bob, I don't believe that Merkel's handling of the refugee crisis last year was how the EU should work, nor do I think that the Eurpoean courts should overturn sovereign court decisions, nor do I think it sensible that some countries can ignore EU legislation without being punished, whilst others are and, whilst as a trading organisation it works reasonably well, as a financial union it is a disaster.
I could go on but it would not convince you, and I don't agree with your assumption that closer political union is unlikely, if that is what Germany wants then that's what it will get, and France, Italy, Belgium and Holland will meekly follow wagging their tails.

[Mervyn and Trish]

EU failing miserably? Where should I start? "Refugees" pouring in through leaky borders and no one with a clue who they are or where they are. Britain taking in refugee children because they are not considered safe in other EU countries. Unemployment and debt at record levels in some EU countries. Crises in the Euro more frequent than elections to the Euro parliament. Budgets not signed off by the auditors.... ever. If it was a company we'd close it down. If it was a dog we'd put it down. Plus all the things Towny's already mentioned.

[Quizzical Bob]

EU failing miserably? Where should I start? "Refugees" pouring in through leaky borders and no one with a clue who they are or where they are. Britain taking in refugee children because they are not considered safe in other EU countries. Unemployment and debt at record levels in some EU countries. Crises in the Euro more frequent than elections to the Euro parliament. Budgets not signed off by the auditors.... ever. If it was a company we'd close it down. If it was a dog we'd put it down. Plus all the things Towny's already mentioned.

But it is neither a company nor a dog. The Euro has been a great success and is working well. It's only Greece that has its own problems but the problem and the solution lies within Greece. Debt is at record levels in Britain too. People have been pouring into Britain for decades, not primarily from the EU.

[Mervyn and Trish]

The Euro has been a great success? Tell that to Greece, to Portugal, to Spain. Yes we have debt too, but we've been better able to manage it because we're not in the "successful" Euro

[Silver_Shiney]

But it is neither a company nor a dog. The Euro has been a great success and is working well. It's only Greece that has its own problems but the problem and the solution lies within Greece. Debt is at record levels in Britain too. People have been pouring into Britain for decades, not primarily from the EU.

Only Greece? I beg to differ. Portugal has had massive problems and had to go to Brussels for a bail out. So did Ireland.

Agreed, people have been coming to the UK for decades, but it's only in more recent years that the floodgates opened because our benefits system is seen as a soft touch (Yes, I know many come to actually work and put something back into our economy) and Brussels declared that workers can move anywhere within Europe (which, for that purpose, includes us) so they came here because wages were higher.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Yes people have arrived in the UK for decades. But once we had control. Now we don't and numbers are escalating and within the EU will continue to do so

[barney]

It's interesting to read different perceptions of what the EU is in it's existing form.

I must admit that I stupidly thought that when the Prime minister trotted off to negotiate a better deal for the UK, he would do better than he did.

As I've said before, the real con of this referendum is that they are making out like the vote is for what we have now, or to leave.
Dave says that Turkey and others won't join the EU for decades.
Let's assume that is correct.
So what future are our grandchildren going to have in a small island country absolutely swamped by uncontrolled migration.

I'd like to ask the Prime Minister one simple question.
That is, what number does our population have to reach before someone says enough is enough?

I honestly think that we have an obligation to the younger generation to get out while we have the chance or in years to come, they may well be looking back and asking why didn't we leave.

Would we join the EU on June 23rd knowing what we know?
Clearly not. I think everyone agrees with that.

So, why stay when we don't have to.
It only suits people with a vested interest like big business (tax evasion) and gravy train jobs for the 'elite'
Sunday Politics showed it up for what it is today with the Director of CBI and her other tax dodging mates
Andrew Neil ripped her a new one.
£40 billion in tax lost due to the ECJ over ruling HMRC

I can't wait for Dave & Farage head to head.
I'd reckon that Farage will eat him for breakfast as he did Clegg

[Manoverboard]

Everybody with a brain surely knows that the vote is actually about leaving vs staying in and accepting that the future of the UK will mirror that of the EU however it may turn out.

If we remain in we will of course be able to veto Turkey joining as can 27 other Countries ( problem solved ) but if we leave then they may not be vetoed so could come in anyway as part of our trade agreements with the EU .... tis pure scaremongering to suggest that anybody should vote to leave simply because any particular Country could potentially join the EU.

The future of our grandchildren if we ' Remain ' is that they could pick up sticks and move to any other Country within the EU if GB inc doesn't work out for them conversely if we ' Exit ' then prices will undoubtedly rise and their job opportunities will steadily deteriorate as a consequence ... and especially so for those on benefits or low incomes.

Fat Cats are irrelevant as they will live well in any type of economy, with or without the EU, as they did and indeed continue to do in the Soviet States of olde.

I note that the ex Retail Giant Fat Cats are predicting a steep increase in the price of food if we ' Exit ', they also pointed out that UK sheep farmers will never again sell lamb onto the continent if the French have anything to do with it. The same fate also logically awaits our highly profitable food processing factories ... as well as the financial sector plus automotive / aerospace industries as previously identified.

[barney]

"The future of our grandchildren if we ' Remain ' is that they could pick up sticks and move to any other Country within the EU if GB inc doesn't work out for them"

I lived and worked in Spain for three years in the late '70s.

The UK was in the EEC but ..... Spain were not.
I applied for and easily got what was known at the time as a work permit.
I recall it wasn't a big deal.

The trade off of a few wanting to work abroad and get better roaming mobile deals and being massively swamped with uncontrolled immigration isn't of much of deal in my opinion.

As I said on a previous post Moby, it's very geographical as to whether you are adversely affected or not.

Boston in Lincs has one of the highest immigration populations of any town in the country.
Coincidently, it also has the lowest ratio of earnings per capita.
Down here in Kent, there are massive (and I mean massive) packing plants employing hundreds of thousands of migrants.
Don't any English want this work?
Well it appears not as 99% are employed via agencies, specialising in foreign workers.

They bring nothing to the area but a drain on resources.

Pop in to Maidstone, Medway or Pembury A&E at any given time and you will see the problem through new eyes.
Have they had an accident? No.
Is it an emergency? No.
But, they cannot get registered with a GP so see A&E as a drop in centre.

Harriet Harman was on TV today saying that Spain would increase the price of their fruit if we left the EU.
Has anyone asked the Spanish fruit growers?
What utter tosh !

I'm all for a reasoned debate but many of the Remain heavyweights are actually making themselves look ridiculous with their claims.

I'm guessing that they are saving up Pestelance and Plague for the final week.

[oldbluefox]

"Harriet Harman was on TV today saying..................."
Whatever she was saying that's good enough to make my mind up, b****y hypocrite that she is!!! Can't stand the woman or her pompous, arrogant sidekick Diane Abbott!!!! The pair of them make my flesh creep. (Language Timothy).

[Silver_Shiney]

I wouldn't waste good salt on whatever Harriet Harperson has to utter....

[johnds]

The Euro has been a great success and is working well. It's only Greece that has its own problems

Bob
In those two sentences you have destroyed for me any credibility that I might have had in your repeated arguments.

Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and how many more.

Most of these countries were not able to fulfil the criteria for entrance into the Euro but were bullied by Germany and France who bent the rules to promote their dubious ambitions and for many people in those nations it has been a disaster. The rate of juvenile unemployment in Spain is only one proof of that. There have been frequent reports of a crisis in the Eurozone for years. Yes - handy for us for holidays but that's not the point really.

Economics is not the be all and end all of the arguments.

John

[Frank Manning]

"Harriet Harman was on TV today saying..................."
Whatever she was saying that's good enough to make my mind up, b****y hypocrite that she is!!! Can't stand the woman or her pompous, arrogant sidekick Diane Abbott!!!! The pair of them make my flesh creep. (Language Timothy).

Agree 100%about both of them. It doesn't make them wrong about the EU though OBF. Doesn't make Boris Johnson any more attractive to me either.

[oldbluefox]

My problem is that I don't trust any politicians because they will say one thing one day and the totally opposite the next. It was this couple of 'ladies' who insisted a comprehensive education was fine for the general populace but sent their own children to private education because they 'wanted the best for them'. Insincerity knows no bounds so why should I believe anything they say?
Tony Blair told us only 13000 Polish people would come to UK, Mark Carney told us he would consider increasing interest rates when the jobless total fell to 7% or below etc etc. The list is endless.
Politicians present statistics to substantiate their arguments but the same statistics only present half of the argument. Captains of industry and finance, no doubt in the grip of, or indeed directing policy and doubtless accommodating our political leaders as 'advisers' are part of this political cabal. I can understand why the referendum is so divisive and why people feel so undecided. Who to believe?

PS Can you add the objectionably insincere Yvette Cooper to my list of 'can't stand' MPs. Thanks.

[barney]

At the end of the day and very fortunately, everyone has one single vote and will probably use it as they see fit, for them.

If you think that the EU is fine and are happy to continue down the political road, then fine, vote Stay
If you happen to think that is a very expensive talking shop with little gained by the average person, then vote to Leave

We may have some kind of short term financial impact if we leave. Nobody really knows.
We may hit another recession soon if we stay. Nobody really knows.

What I do know is that freedom always comes at a price, whereas serfdom costs everything

[towny44]

I am still to be convinced that there will be a financial meltdown if we leave as predicted by the remain groups. Whilst accepting that the "market" dislikes uncertainty, if we did vote to leave then initially there is likely to be very little change, unemployment will not suddenly expand and everyone will need to continue spending at the same level to at least eat, drink and take holidays, and the uncertainty around the result of the referendum is ended, and as Armageddon does not occur the market will begin to take fresh stock, and probably wonder what bloody hell all the fuss was about.
Then with Gove as PM and Boris as negotiator in chief, we can start to construct our new trade relationship with the EU and the ROW, then we can begin to enjoy an unprecedented period of unwinding everything we dislike about the EU, while keeping any good bits.
Yes there is likely to be some resentment amongst the EU ruling elite, but the average businessman is not going to want to see his livelihood ruined by new tariffs being introduced, and equally large businesses like Airbus can hardly survive without wings for their planes as it would take years to transfer production from Broughton and Filton to the continent.
So probably some initial uncertainty but as trade continues the "market" will settle down and life, a much better life centred around what is best for the UK first, will start to develop, and we Brexiteers will welcome back into the fold with open arms QBob, Moby, Frank and all the other doubting Thomas's.

[barney]

Anyone remember The Millennium Bug?

[CaroleF]

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm fed up with both sides saying about how dreadful it's going to be if we don't do what they wish us to do. How about both sides having to give a talk about the positives they believe their side offers without once mentioning the Doomsday scenario that will happen if we don't listen to them. All the headlines this morning are scaremongering - "PM: Vote Brexit, get recession".

I have made my mind up and no amount of scare tactics are going to make me change it but it must be very difficult for those people who don't know which way to vote. By the way I'm voting Out but I fully expect the In side to win, largely because people are less likely to vote for the unknown, for change.

[johnds]

By the way I'm voting Out but I fully expect the In side to win, largely because people are less likely to vote for the unknown, for change.

Carole
Hear hear - that's my position too. But I believe people will in the end fall for the ridiculous scaremongering being pumped out on a daily basis by Cameron and Osborne. The current daily outrageous scare stories are incredible. Where is there an honest politician ? I know there aren't any.
I have voted Conservative all my life but never again will I vote for these two complete liars. Their behaviour is disgraceful and given recent outpourings neither of them is fit to ever be believed again nor to run even a coffee morning
Just remind me - who was it who said that if he didn't get the deal he wanted he would vote to leave. That can now be seen as a bare-faced lie.

Touble is now just who else could I vote for

John

[Quizzical Bob]

The Euro has been a great success and is working well. It's only Greece that has its own problems

Bob
In those two sentences you have destroyed for me any credibility that I might have had in your repeated arguments.

Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and how many more.

Most of these countries were not able to fulfil the criteria for entrance into the Euro but were bullied by Germany and France who bent the rules to promote their dubious ambitions and for many people in those nations it has been a disaster. The rate of juvenile unemployment in Spain is only one proof of that. There have been frequent reports of a crisis in the Eurozone for years. Yes - handy for us for holidays but that's not the point really.

Economics is not the be all and end all of the arguments.

John

I can't agree. The Euro is sound and has been a great success and is well on its way to becoming a reserve currency. Any problems that individual countries might have are due to poor financial management rather than the currency that they are using. Now, with the single currency, businesses and people across the continent can trade freely and without the uncertainty of exchange rate variations or horrendous bank charges.

[Quizzical Bob]

EU failing miserably? Where should I start? "Refugees" pouring in through leaky borders and no one with a clue who they are or where they are. Britain taking in refugee children because they are not considered safe in other EU countries. Unemployment and debt at record levels in some EU countries. Crises in the Euro more frequent than elections to the Euro parliament. Budgets not signed off by the auditors.... ever. If it was a company we'd close it down. If it was a dog we'd put it down. Plus all the things Towny's already mentioned.

This is a complete myth. The budgets have been approved by the auditors for the latest seven years.

[Silver_Shiney]

I can't agree. The Euro is sound and has been a great success and is well on its way to becoming a reserve currency. Any problems that individual countries might have are due to poor financial management rather than the currency that they are using. Now, with the single currency, businesses and people across the continent can trade freely and without the uncertainty of exchange rate variations or horrendous bank charges.

It has been the practice of this charity to pick up the bank charges of the receiving bank when we send money overseas. Now, due to some Brussels interference, we can no longer do so when sending money to Eurozone countries, the recipient must pay the charges. Admittedly the bank charges are lower than sending to African and Asian countries, but they're still high. Agreed, trade within the Eurozone means there are no exchange rates to worry about but "sound"? No. It's paper money, not backed by anything.

NowI saw a talking head on TV over the weekend saying how disastrous it would be to the NHS if we leave the EU. I have sitting in front of me a glossy leaflet, giving the impression that it is printed by the NHS giving "5 positive reasons to Vote Leave and take back control"

1 - we send over £350 million to the EU every week - enough to build a modern hospital every week of the year. If we vote to remain in the EU, we will keep sending this money to Brussels each week. If we Vote Leave, we can spend our money on our priorities - like the NHS, schools, and housing.

2 - Take back control over our laws - If we vote to remain, EU laws will overrule UK laws and the European Courts will be in control of our trade, our borders, and big decisions like whether prisoners are allowed to vote. If we Vote Leave, UK laws will have ultimate authority and we will take back control. We should be able to vote out the people who make our laws.

3 - Build a fairer, safer immigration system - If we vote to remain in the EU, we'll be stuck with an out-of-control immigration system which is bad for our security. The European Courts will be in charge of who we let in, and who we can remove. Imagine if Turkey joins this broken system. If we Vote Leave, we will be able to have a fairer, more humane system based on the skills we need, We'll be able to control numbers without having to turn away talented people from outside the EU who want to contribute.

4 - Free to trade with the whole world - At the moment, the UK has no trade deals with important countries like China, India and Australia. If we vote to remain, we won't be able to make our own deals. We'll keep having the same old rows about bailing out the euro (€). If we Vote Leave, we can have a friendlier relationship with the EU based on trade, as well as regain our seat on global bodies like the World Trade Organisation.

5 - Vote Leave is the safer choice - If we vote to remain in the EU, we'll be locked in the back of the car going somewhere we don't want to go. We'll keep subsidising other EU countries and losing more control every year. If we Vote Leave, UK laws will have ultimate authority and we will take back control. We'll be free to spend our money on our priorites. Which do you think is safer for you and your family?

They say "5 positive reasons", but there are actually only four, as the fifth is just a repeat. There's also a deal of the usual scaremongering so loved of both sides. However, it strikes me as odd that the head honcho, who says we should remain in, presides over an organisation seemingly publishing a leaflet saying we should leave. If the NHS didn't have a hand in this, then it's a poor show from the Remain campaign - but I'm still voting "out".

I don't know how widespread distribution of this leaflet is - we didn't get one at home. Again, we didn't get CMD's £9m brochure either.

[towny44]

The Euro has been a great success and is working well. It's only Greece that has its own problems

Bob
In those two sentences you have destroyed for me any credibility that I might have had in your repeated arguments.

Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and how many more.

Most of these countries were not able to fulfil the criteria for entrance into the Euro but were bullied by Germany and France who bent the rules to promote their dubious ambitions and for many people in those nations it has been a disaster. The rate of juvenile unemployment in Spain is only one proof of that. There have been frequent reports of a crisis in the Eurozone for years. Yes - handy for us for holidays but that's not the point really.

Economics is not the be all and end all of the arguments.

John

I can't agree. The Euro is sound and has been a great success and is well on its way to becoming a reserve currency. Any problems that individual countries might have are due to poor financial management rather than the currency that they are using. Now, with the single currency, businesses and people across the continent can trade freely and without the uncertainty of exchange rate variations or horrendous bank charges.

Bob, I am sure that by your support of the euro you are just playing devil's advocate, because you could not really be thick enough to believe it's been a huge success.
If the likes of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc had not been in the euro their govts. could have allowed their currencies to devalue, avoiding quite a lot of the pain of the recession. I will accept that fiscal mismanagement has been at the heart of the Greek problems, but even here a floating currency could have alleviated a lot of the horrors of austerity.
So to try to advocate that a fixed currency has been successful in growing EU trade whilst, Germany apart, it is languishing behind most other countries is just plain stupid.
Now I do accept that trading with floating exchange rates can be problematic, but if all govts. could agree to tax excess profits made by exchange rate firms at say 150% (and maybe hedge fund firms as well) then just possibly we would see a bit more stability in the exchange rate market, thus eliminating the German's desire to have us all tied to their Deutsch euro.

[Silver_Shiney]

There will be one definite disadvantage to leaving the EU. Despite the promise that the Scottish referendum was the end of the matter either way, if we do leave, Shrek and la Krankie will call for another vote on independence which they will certainly win. They will then apply for EU membership which, if granted, will necessitate border controls between Scotland and the other countries in the (dis)United Kingdom

[Mervyn and Trish]

EU failing miserably? Where should I start? "Refugees" pouring in through leaky borders and no one with a clue who they are or where they are. Britain taking in refugee children because they are not considered safe in other EU countries. Unemployment and debt at record levels in some EU countries. Crises in the Euro more frequent than elections to the Euro parliament. Budgets not signed off by the auditors.... ever. If it was a company we'd close it down. If it was a dog we'd put it down. Plus all the things Towny's already mentioned.

This is a complete myth. The budgets have been approved by the auditors for the latest seven years.

Even if that's true, and you seem to be the only one to think that QB, that's a pretty poor record in the time the EU has existed.

I'm beginning to think you're some sort of undercover plant for the leave campaign. Pretty much everything you post supposedly in the name of staying makes me more determined to vote leave. Surely you must be Boris's twin separated at birth!