EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[Silver_Shiney]

But if we decide, in a couple of weeks time, to say we leave, what's stopping us from shutting the door a fortnight tomorrow? (apart from the political will to do the right thing by this country, of course)

There is all the legal business, and these would be British laws that would have to be changed. We would need to invoke article 50 and wait for a withdrawal agreement to be finalised and we would have no say in the timing of this. In the meantime all exisiting laws would still be in force.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the ... rticle-50/

In other words, lack of political will

On whose part?

Westminster

[Mervyn and Trish]

If we vote to leave and shut the door the day after what will they do? Fine us?

And then, like the French have done in the past, we put up two fingers and tell them to do one.

[Silver_Shiney]

If we vote to leave and shut the door the day after what will they do? Fine us?

And then, like the French have done in the past, we put up two fingers and tell them to do one.

If it's good enough for the French, it's more than good enough for us

[Quizzical Bob]

For me we're only just starting to get to the heart of the debate. For weeks they've been exchanging blows over the economy, a deliberate ploy by the remain lot to avoid the issues the electorate are most concerned about. And they, I believe, are the level of immigration and the pressure it is causing on housing and public services, and national sovereignty and the ability to control our own destiny. Someone tell me I'm wrong, but that is what I believe started this whole thing.

You are right, the rise of UKIP was down to immigration. The real question is whether leaving the EU would make any difference, and I don't believe it would. We have had higher immigration because we have been in the EU but it does not follow that leaving the EU would result in lower immigration.

But it would be in our power to decide who is allowed in. I'm not against immigration. I'm against uncontrolled immigration. But the point of my post was that neither side has addressed the issue, probably because it's considered politically incorrect - remember Gordon Brown's bigot comment

I don't think it's as much about political correctness, rather a case of the political elite being out of touch with ordinary people. Those who live in a large city such as London may see a change in the characteristics of the people around them but they don't see the wider consequences such as crowded roads and transport, waiting longer for a doctor's appointment, struggling to find a school for your child or even something as mundane as a parking spot for your car.

[Silver_Shiney]

Steady on, QBob, you're starting to sound like us

[Not so ancient mariner]

The latest immigration figures show(?) that well over half of those arriving in the past year came from countries outwith the EU!

[Silver_Shiney]

The latest immigration figures show(?) that well over half of those arriving in the past year came from countries outwith the EU!

But did they, or is that just what the figures were concocted to say?

[david63]

If we vote to leave and shut the door the day after what will they do? Fine us?

And then, like the French have done in the past, we put up two fingers and tell them to do one.

Yes we could but I doubt that would work. Whether we like it or not we will have to negotiate with the EU over a myriad of issues if we leave and it is not going to help us get the "best" deal if we adopt the French attitude.

[towny44]

The latest immigration figures show(?) that well over half of those arriving in the past year came from countries outwith the EU!

But did they, or is that just what the figures were concocted to say?

The last figures I saw were that nearly two thirds of new immigrants came from the EU, of course these figures won't include illegals which might switch the percentage round of course.

[towny44]

I note that Angela Merkel seems to have had the same speech writer as Barack Obama had for her latest attempt to sway the undecided voters.
So she is now going to throw the good workers of Stuttgart and Munich under the wheels of the EU juggernaut as she tries to bully UK voters into believing we could not negotiate a satisfactory trade agreement after Brexit.
I do hope the voters give her a black eye on 23rd June.

[barney]

Dave handled himself pretty well on Sky last night.

No matter the question, he managed to bring it back to his mantra of single market and 500 million customers.

The questioning by Faisal Islam and the public was quite aggressive but he kept his cool and played the game.

The only thing he failed hugely on was immigration, by stating that he could still hit his manifesto target of under 100k while being in the EU. ??????

He was unable to answer how, just that it was his aim.

All in all, not bad and Gove to follow tonight.

[Mervyn and Trish]

So Dave says we can hit the manifesto target within the EU. If that is the case:

a) why hasn't he?

b) why has net immigration actually gone steadily upwards since he made that pledge?

c) since he hasn't made any progress whatsoever since making that pledge why should be believe it will get any better after 23rd June?

It's like a naughty kid saying "I'll be a good boy tomorrow Mummy" when he's threatened with punishment for not being a good boy today.

Not only in my mind is Dave losing this argument, he's also losing any credibility in my mind as a Prime Minister. Whichever way the vote goes I believe he'll be toast by the end of the month.

[gilly88]

having now done four vote leave campaigning days around my area. I can categorically say that there is a LOT of support for the leave vote. we did have people walking past saying they are voting to remain, that's fine, we all have an opinion, but by far the most enthusiastic people were the leavers. they are the ones who feel the most passionate about voting and I think the government are going to be surprised by the vote on the day.
just two more weekends to stand in the rain, unless our summer decides to make a show.

[oldbluefox]

Butch the Rooster

Sarah was in the fertilized egg business. She had several hundred young pullets and ten roosters to fertilize the eggs. She kept records and any rooster not performing went into the soup pot and was replaced.
This took a lot of time, so she bought some tiny bells and attached them to her roosters.
Each bell had a different tone, so she could tell from a distance which rooster was performing. Now, she could sit on the porch and fill out an
efficiency report by just listening to the bells.

Sarah's favorite rooster, old Butch, was a very fine specimen but, this morning she noticed old Butch's bell hadn't rung at all!
When she went to investigate, she saw the other roosters were busy chasing pullets, bells-a-ringing, but the pullets hearing the roosters coming, would run for cover.

To Sarah's amazement, old Butch had his bell in his beak, so it couldn't ring. He'd sneak up on a pullet, do his job, and walk on to the next one.
Sarah was so proud of old Butch, she entered him in a Show and he became an overnight sensation among the judges.

The result was the judges not only awarded old Butch the "No Bell Peace Prize" they also awarded him the "Pulletsurprise" as well.

Clearly old Butch was a politician in the making. Who else but a politician could figure out how to win two of the most coveted awards on our planet by being the best at sneaking up on the unsuspecting populace and screwing them when they weren't paying attention?

Vote carefully in the next election. You can't always hear the bells.

[Raybosailor]

That,s classic Foxy, now I know how Ranieri got the Leicester team to get their arses into gear "dilly ding dilly dong" you know what I mean ?

[Not so ancient mariner]

The latest immigration figures show(?) that well over half of those arriving in the past year came from countries outwith the EU!

But did they, or is that just what the figures were concocted to say?

The last figures I saw were that nearly two thirds of new immigrants came from the EU, of course these figures won't include illegals which might switch the percentage round of course.

Well, since some of the (mis)information coming from the leave faction is blatantly a load of guff and/or irrelevant, These figures are at the very least no more unreliable.

Actually the latest figures released by Migration Watch UK for the year ending Dec 2015 are :

Net immigration from EU countries 184,000
Bet immigration from non EU countries 188,000

So slightly rather than substantially more than half coming from non EU countries, but nothing like the one third suggested by some other activist's figures.

[johnds]

Watched both Sky News programs.
First with David Cameron, second with Michael Gove

Conclusion
Who on earth does Faisal Islam think he is. It might be the current trend in journalism to be rude and aggresive but I thought that in addition he attached far too much value to his own importance. For me a nasty piece of work

[oldbluefox]

Who on earth does Faisal Islam think he is. It might be the current trend in journalism to be rude and aggressive but I thought that in addition he attached far too much value to his own importance. For me a nasty piece of work

Sometimes these debates become more a reflection on the interviewer than the interviewee and this is the impression I got from Faisal Islam. The same used to happen with Jeremy Paxman where the interview became more about him and his own ego than getting to the truth.

I believe very little of what politicians say anyway, and the same goes for their sidekicks in finance and industry. Why should I trust them and why should I believe them when they can say one thing one day and weeks later something totally different? History shows they will resort to any tactics in order to further their own careers.

My decision is based on what I already know about the EU, whether I want to continue with it, where I see it going in the future and whether I feel the country will be better off with the status quo, or as I suspect, greater involvement and interference from our Brussels overloads. I will be voting to leave, the same decision I made years ago when Bliar promised a referendum and then revoked it by a bit of jiggery-pokery with the Lisbon Treaty.

[Dark Knight]

Apparently the EU list nearly 900 million euros to fraud last year
Luckily it was down on the previous year by almost 13 million

Nice to know our taxes are be spent wisely by this August body

[gfwgfw]

Who is the Bogey man ?

[Not so ancient mariner]

having now done four vote leave campaigning days around my area. I can categorically say that there is a LOT of support for the leave vote. we did have people walking past saying they are voting to remain, that's fine, we all have an opinion, but by far the most enthusiastic people were the leavers. they are the ones who feel the most passionate about voting and I think the government are going to be surprised by the vote on the day.
just two more weekends to stand in the rain, unless our summer decides to make a show.

I wonder how many of them were being 'polite' and telling you what they thought you wanted to hear. Remember how badly wrong the pollsters got their predictions for the general election last year.

[Not so ancient mariner]

The EU is far from perfect. Nobody in their right mind could deny that. My problem is more with the simplistic, irrelevant and often disingenuous proclamations being made by the likes of Boris Johnson & Michael Gove. They're starting to make Nigel Farage look almost pro Europe.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I finally heard a really convincing argument for staying in the EU today.

Then the pink fairy was swallowed by the big green fly and I woke up.

[johnds]

The EU is far from perfect. Nobody in their right mind could deny that. My problem is more with the simplistic, irrelevant and often disingenuous proclamations being made by the likes of Boris Johnson & Michael Gove. They're starting to make Nigel Farage look almost pro Europe.

And "Call me Dave" and his sidekick Georgie Porgie aren't telling exagerated scare stories and untruths ?

Of course they are - they are politicians.

Personalities are irrelevant - principles aren't.

And Jeremy ?? "these are my principles and if you don't like them I have others"
Jeremy has not had a "Road to Damascus" moment and the word is that in the secret ballot he will vote as he always has done to leave.

Simply because of his bullying and lying behaviour I believe that CMD is finished in or out. And wee Georgie wwill never now make P.M.

John

[gilly88]

having now done four vote leave campaigning days around my area. I can categorically say that there is a LOT of support for the leave vote. we did have people walking past saying they are voting to remain, that's fine, we all have an opinion, but by far the most enthusiastic people were the leavers. they are the ones who feel the most passionate about voting and I think the government are going to be surprised by the vote on the day.
just two more weekends to stand in the rain, unless our summer decides to make a show.

I wonder how many of them were being 'polite' and telling you what they thought you wanted to hear. Remember how badly wrong the pollsters got their predictions for the general election last year.

I count on nothing ancient mariner, I am glad the people were mainly polite but the only vote that matters is on the day. I just live in hope at the moment.