EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[towny44]

But we can veto anything we don't like, according to the PM. Really?????

Must be true - QBob said so...

It seems that QBob has done a bunk, I am still waiting for his reply to my post on Monday on why need to buy from them but they don't need to sell to us, could he perhaps be having a Damascene moment??

[Silver_Shiney]

Yes, I noticed he was conspicuous by his absence!!

[qbman1]

He's in Warsaw, canvassing for support for the Remain campaign

[gfwgfw]

Bleeding Heck

Tiz still a mucking fuddle for me and my ferrets

Never mind the Euro Cup is almost upon us

Roy and his boy's will be triumphant or not

Lubbooo all

Graham x

[Silver_Shiney]

You're right about it being a muddle, dear sir, and now they're predicting a general election before Christmas!

What's the Euro Cup, anything important?

[Frank Manning]

Things will be worse if i goes 50.1% one way and 49.9% the other. Especially if Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales are significantly different to the English view.

[qbman1]

I reckon it will be close, but not that close. I predict a lot of spoiled papers

[Golden Princess]

This came up on my (dreaded) FaceBook newsfeed. I found it to have a little different and somewhat amusing slant. Posting it here for perhaps discussion as there are some rather different points made!!! Please ignore this if it is not for you.

British friends: if you know anyone who is considering voting for Brexit (and I sincerely hope you don't), please point out to them that, thanks to the law of unintended consequences, a vote for Brexit has a 99% certainty of also being a vote for the following:

1. Boris Johnson as Prime Minister - our very own, better-educated, answer to Donald Trump!
2. Scotland leaving the United Kingdom in order to remain in the EU.
3. A three-year recession in the UK.
4. Uncontained delight for Donald Trump, Rupert Murdoch, Kim Jong-un, ISIS, the Taliban, and all other enemies of democracy.
5. A huge setback for the West as whole, and for its slow progress towards peace and stability since 1945.
6. A collapse in the pound: which will mean no more European holidays for most British people, and high inflation at home.
7. All those retired British people in Spain being sent home (or being forced home by the weak pound and lack of access to healthcare), where they will be a drain on the UK health care system instead of the Spanish one.
8. London's Polish builders all going to Germany (see point 6), and leaving us to contend with British builders.
9. No change in net immigration figures: since, in order to gain access to the EU single market, neighbouring nations also have to accept free movement of labour. There's no chance of the UK being granted an exception.
10. The final collapse of British farming, as EU subsidies are withdrawn, and promises to replace them from Westminster are not honoured.

And then ask them to consider, whether it is worth enduring this outcome, in order to express their disgruntlement over immigration policy and EU bureaucracy?

[Frank Manning]

I bet David Cameron is kicking himself for even mentioning referendum in the beginning. I guess he was trying to head off the kind of cr*p that John Major had to contend with from the 'loony right'. Instead of 'lancing to boil' of Tory rebellion he has made it worse. Brilliant cartoon in The Times today.

Interesting post Princess, Immigration has dominated the populist media, and even if Brexit makes no difference to immigration as your FB page says, the Brexits are not listening to any other arguments, and will not care. I'm not sure about Rupert Murdoch, The Times has been very sarcastic about BorisJ especially in cartoons, all through the referendum, and pretty even handed with their articles.

One thing is for sure, my MP has lost my support permanently now.

[allatc]

Like Anthony Bamford, in 1975 I voted to become part of a large European trading area - the EEC.

I did not vote to become part of a European political state into which it is increasingly becoming (and whose aim was known at that time but kept very quiet about by the political elite).

[oldbluefox]

I was very happy to vote for the EEC. It seems we were led up the garden path by the politicians on an agenda for which we did not vote, and in successive elections have been promised a chance to vote whether to go and stay. Our politicians have singularly found excuse after excuse to avoid the referendum and were it not for the rise of UKIP, and the realisation by Cameron that without offering a referendum UKIP could split his support there would be no referendum.
I believe our economy will dip for a while after Brexit. However I also feel that in the long run we will be better off from an already ailing EU. As net contributors they really do need us on board and will have to find their shortfall from somewhere else. Even if we remain I can still see we will face a period of further austerity but will then be inexorably tied to the imposition of a federal European state.

[Raybosailor]

I'm not much of a tv watcher but tonight I am waiting for the glue to dry on a project I am on so I asked Cheryl what was on the box.

BBC 1 DIY SOS Now I am a big fan of DIY but watching a load of goons put plaster board on back to front and then painting freshly plastered walls is not my idea of entertainment.

Channel 4 A family who have a beautiful Victorian villa but don't like it while millions would love a place they could afford to buy ????? Noooooo thanks

Channel 5 On Benefits Life On The Dole, a programme about low life who just don't care what happens to the country so long as they get their benefits.

ITV The ITV Referendum Debate, A load of so called experts who don't even know what being in Europe means if truth be known and one of them doesn't even want to remain part of Britain.

BBC 2 Springwatch a programme about people and organisations that dedicate their time to help wildlife survive, I often marvel how these experts really look into the lives of wildlife and get to the root of their problems, they defer the building of housing and infrastructure to let a few rare species mate and even build new homes for them. No wonder birds and aquatic life travel thousands of miles from our shores but always return to the UK for us to look after their kids, we are a soft touch and who in the human world would turn down a chance to migrate to Britain for an easy life.

[Frank Manning]

I never thought I would be cheering on the Scots Nats, but at least Mrs HichtyMichty told Boris a few home truths. If we are talking 'Project Fear' concocting myths about the European Superstate, Unrestricted Immigration, and an Imposed Euro are just as much playing on peole's fears.

(Takes cover from expected torrent of abuse).

[oldbluefox]

I saw the three of them very differently Frank; more akin to the three witches scene from MacBeth. They had plenty of ideas of what should be happening if it were not for that Tory government (not sure what that had to do with the referendum), the rhetoric sounded good even though we all know they were being unrealistic and there was an uncontrolled belief that if we leave the EU we go back to square one and start all over again. The core of their argument was in what they did not say because, believe it or not, if we vote to remain it will merely give the EU the green light to push forward more initiatives which we do not want.
By comparison I felt Boris remained very calm despite the personal attacks on him from the 'bubble, bubble, toil and trouble' characters opposite. It seemed ironic to me that Mrs Krankie was espousing closer union with Europe whilst actively seeking independence from UK.

Did anybody see Question Time last night? Eddie Izzard? No comment!!!

[CaroleF]

I have never seen such awful screeching women! If that's an example of what the Remain team have to offer than I'm glad I've already voted to leave. Did they really think that making all those personal, derogatory comments about Boris was going to gain them votes? Whatever anyone feels about Boris no one should be the target of such personal comments. I felt they were disgraceful, particularly Angela Eagle and Amber Rudd, shouting like fishwives. As for Nicola S, I stopped listening to her ages ago. I happened to listen to a conversation this morning around 6.50am on Five Live and there was a very interesting piece between two financial men in the city - can't remember their names. One was for staying, one for leaving. They exchanged thoughts, listened to each other and responded in a very calm way. Why have our politicians not been able to do the same?

Carole

[Silver_Shiney]

Them's wot resort to personal insults is them's wot's already lost the argument (see, Carole, I can talk proper too!)

One would have hoped that MPs, and those in positions of authority, would personify the epitome of culture and good manners, setting an example in all areas of life. Yes, they're only human and make mistakes, (at least Boris seems to have been more open about his failings than perhaps others..) but there's something about polls, hustings, whatever that brings out the worst in them. Broken promises, hidden agendas, backhanders - there's no call for it in a civilised society. I despair for what this country has become.

[barney]

Farage certainly handled himself best against Andrew Neil last night. I thought he got his points over very well. He knows his subject unlike many other experts

[Peter D]

The eu is good for uk business. So please explain.

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK.

We don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.

[allatc]

Peter, it's a real eye opener. Do you mind if I copy your post into another facebook forum

[towny44]

Peter, if that doesn't get Qbob to respond then nothing will.
My postal vote has already been sent off, and its goodbye EU from me.

[Dancing Queen]

I was a 'don't know' until I read this !!

Thanks Peter I think the more people who see something like this the easier it would be for them to make what will hopefully be the right decision on how to use their vote.

[Quizzical Bob]

I was a 'don't know' until I read this !!

Thanks Peter I think the more people who see something like this the easier it would be for them to make what will hopefully be the right decision on how to use their vote.

Don't be fooled, that list is extremely selective.

[Quizzical Bob]

Peter, if that doesn't get Qbob to respond then nothing will.
My postal vote has already been sent off, and its goodbye EU from me.

This kind of list just makes me mad. It is so selective that it is the epitome of misinformation. Why don't you compile a list of all the businesses that operate in the UK and sell to Europe? I'll start with Toyota at Burnaston near Derby which exports over 85% of its production to Europe. How long do you think that would last?

The real question is why nobody thinks it's worth making anything in Britain any more, and if anyone thinks that manufacturing will improve outside the EU then they are completely off their trolleys.

I really, really, really despair for our future.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Peter, if that doesn't get Qbob to respond then nothing will.
My postal vote has already been sent off, and its goodbye EU from me.

This kind of list just makes me mad. It is so selective that it is the epitome of misinformation. Why don't you compile a list of all the businesses that operate in the UK and sell to Europe? I'll start with Toyota at Burnaston near Derby which exports over 85% of its production to Europe. How long do you think that would last?

The real question is why nobody thinks it's worth making anything in Britain any more, and if anyone thinks that manufacturing will improve outside the EU then they are completely off their trolleys.

I really, really, really despair for our future.

If that's true, hard to see how Brexit will make it any worse.

[Silver_Shiney]

Peter, if that doesn't get Qbob to respond then nothing will.
My postal vote has already been sent off, and its goodbye EU from me.

This kind of list just makes me mad. It is so selective that it is the epitome of misinformation. Why don't you compile a list of all the businesses that operate in the UK and sell to Europe? I'll start with Toyota at Burnaston near Derby which exports over 85% of its production to Europe. How long do you think that would last?

The real question is why nobody thinks it's worth making anything in Britain any more, and if anyone thinks that manufacturing will improve outside the EU then they are completely off their trolleys.

I really, really, really despair for our future.

Why don't you give us a more comprehensive list?