EU referendum - Stay or Leave?

[Silver_Shiney]

Anarchy maybe?

probably, more like....

[qbman1]

Telling Brussels a few home truths.

Most of them are so thick-skinned, it will all be someone else's fault

[qbman1]

Corbyn must have skin thicker than a rhinoceros if he thinks he'll have any chance of forming the next government with the ramshackle shadow cabinet he has been forced to put together. If he truly has the best interests of his party at heart then he should throw in the towel...If he doesn't then he will send the labour party to the same graveyard as Clegg took his party too.

If he threw in the towel he might have time to sort out his front garden. Every time I see him on the news coming out of his house, it looks a right old mess

I see what you mean...

CmCrFO1XIAAYVCr.jpg

[qbman1]

"Jeremy Corbyn loses vote of no confidence 40-172"

They obviously don't think much of his garden, either !!

[oldbluefox]

And Oxfam will have lost a good customer!!!

[Frank Manning]

Ray Scully - you are 100% right. He is dodgy, a self publicist and he will be found out quite quickly if he gains office. Unfortunately there is little credible opposition at present. These people who are trying to shut up the Remain camp forget that there were >16M who wanted to stay in Europe, and we are still entitled to want to stay in Europe, referendum or no referendum. We don't change our opinions overnight, and we are entitled to speak out. After all we have had to endure years of Europhobe whingeing from the Tory Right and UKIP.

[screwy]

SoJimmy Krankie, Sinn Fien and now Plaid Cwymry are all calling to leave the UK....well let them, if they think they can prosper under a failing European Order good luck...But just remember...we wont want you back..please dont come crawling for handouts when the Brussels money runs dry as it surely will when the only countries left with enough of a budget.Germany/France will not not be able to fund them. For me it will be goodbye and good riddance..Sorry if ive upset anyone but i'm sick and tired of all the Nationalism, we are a United Kingdom.

[barney]

My first post for sometime due to the knee replacement, from which I'm now recovering slowly

So, at last it's over and we have a result.

That's it, move on and get the best possible deal for this country.

If the EU feel that they are able to reach agreement on trade without us contributing or allowing free movement, then all very well and good.
If not, we should go with the same arrangements as any other country outside the EU and both sides take there chance in the free market.
As a snap poll, there are 15 houses in my cul-de-sac ( can we still use that word) and 22 German cars.
If the EU feel the need for export tariffs there may be a few less in the future
The choice is now really down to them

The Uk will do ok whatever.

[Silver_Shiney]

Ray Scully - you are 100% right. He is dodgy, a self publicist and he will be found out quite quickly if he gains office. Unfortunately there is little credible opposition at present. These people who are trying to shut up the Remain camp forget that there were >16M who wanted to stay in Europe, and we are still entitled to want to stay in Europe, referendum or no referendum. We don't change our opinions overnight, and we are entitled to speak out. After all we have had to endure years of Europhobe whingeing from the Tory Right and UKIP.

Frank, the Brexiteers camp were just as entitled to speak out - and the majority verdict was to leave. Accept it. It's called democracy.

[Gill W]

Ray Scully - you are 100% right. He is dodgy, a self publicist and he will be found out quite quickly if he gains office. Unfortunately there is little credible opposition at present. These people who are trying to shut up the Remain camp forget that there were >16M who wanted to stay in Europe, and we are still entitled to want to stay in Europe, referendum or no referendum. We don't change our opinions overnight, and we are entitled to speak out. After all we have had to endure years of Europhobe whingeing from the Tory Right and UKIP.

Frank, the Brexiteers camp were just as entitled to speak out - and the majority verdict was to leave. Accept it. It's called democracy.

Both sides are entitled to speak about it.

Just because Leave won, it doesn't mean that Remain have to stop talking about it.

The referendum was won by a very small majority. If it had gone the other way, do you think the Leavers would have said, OK, that's it, let's forget it now.' I somehow doubt it.

When you consider only about 36% of the whole eligible electorate voted leave, it really is the slimmest of mandates that leave have.

The discussions will run and run, especially as nobody in Westminster is showing any real desire to invoke article 50. Even arch-Brexiteer Boris says there's no rush

[Silver_Shiney]

Gill, both sides are, indeed, entitled to speak about it NOWHERE have I said that Remain must stop talking about it. What I wold have hoped they would have the decency to do, though, is stop crying foul and demanding a second referendum. That is totally unacceptable. General elections have been held with lower turnouts and equally slim majorities but not even Labour were immature enough to demand a second ballot. I firmly believe that Leave is the sensible option - but if the result was to Remain, and Brexiteers started demanding a second vote, I would be just as vocal in condemning their lack of respect for democracy. As I said, the majority verdict was to leave. Accept it. Frank (who, incidentally, has chosen not to answer my earlier question) says he is entitled to want to stay in the EU. Yes, he is. I am entitled to want to leave.

[Onelife]

Agree Mr Shiney ...its time for those in the remain camp to come to terms with how the United Kingdom voted. There will but no second referendum so there is no point in prolonging this futile attempt to change the democratic decision that the majority of us came to.

Regards

keith

[Gill W]

If you keep on telling people to 'accept it' or 'come to terms with it' it gives the impression that you think the there should be no further discussion about it. No one can change the result, so obviously it has to be accepted - but people still have a lot to say about it.

Who's crying foul?

It was a fair referendum - and everybody's vote counted the same.

In the forums I participate in, a second referendum has been discussed, but nobody has been running around demanding anything.

I personally think it'd be ridiculous to have a second referendum. The one we've just had was for advisory purposes only, with a small majority for Leave. Now the government have to decide what to do about it, and I think both 'sides" agree that we need clarity soon, so we can move forward with certainty. A second referendum would add to the uncertainty

I wanted to remain, but the referendum said otherwise. I will have to live with the descison made by the very small majority.

just because I still wish to discuss it, doesn't mean I haven't accepted the situation.

What do the Leavers think is going to happen next - what sort of leaving deal do you want? Do you think Article 50 will be invoked soon after the new PM is in office? What will you think if there's an indefinite delay - I ask this as Boris thinks there's no rush to leave

[Onelife]

Hi Gill.....l don't have a problem with anyone on this forum putting there opinions across, on this or any other topic. I do however have a problem with persons of influence using the media to imply somehow that the vote to exit the EU wasn't what the majority of people really wanted.

Regards

Keith

[Silver_Shiney]

Gill, it seems that you still do not understand. NOWHERE have I said the topic is no longer to be discussed. What is not acceptable is the baying for a second referendum. General elections have been settled with equally slim margins and with lower turnouts yet the supporters of the losing parties don't make this much fuss - possibly because they know they can try again in a few years, I don't know - but there are clear calls for this result to be set aside and another ballot held. That is sticking two fingers up at democracy. It's those people I am telling to accept the result, not those who wish to discuss it.

Any negative consequences will affect the Leave camp as well as the Remain camp. Any positive consequences will benefit the Remain camp as well as the Leave camp.

You say the vote was for advisory purposes only. That's the first I've heard of that. My understanding was that we were telling the government to leave, and I am disappointed that heels are now being dragged.

[Frank Manning]

Sorry SS. Parliament does not have to implement the result of the referendum. The reason why they will, is fear of the effect of UKIP on their vote if we do not leave. In any case like it or not, the Leave camp peddled some outrageous stuff. I respect The Times, their cartoon Monday sums up the contradictions in the Leave publicity for me. I feel cheated by a rag tag of disaffected politicians who appealed to a narrow section of the total population. I don't accept that the decision is the right one for my country, and you will not influence me by keep on telling me to accept it. Any way Spandau Ballet are playing 'True', on Dorset Smooth; must go.

[anniec]

Ray Scully - you are 100% right. He is dodgy, a self publicist and he will be found out quite quickly if he gains office. Unfortunately there is little credible opposition at present. These people who are trying to shut up the Remain camp forget that there were >16M who wanted to stay in Europe, and we are still entitled to want to stay in Europe, referendum or no referendum. We don't change our opinions overnight, and we are entitled to speak out. After all we have had to endure years of Europhobe whingeing from the Tory Right and UKIP.

Frank, the Brexiteers camp were just as entitled to speak out - and the majority verdict was to leave. Accept it. It's called democracy.

Both sides are entitled to speak about it.

Just because Leave won, it doesn't mean that Remain have to stop talking about it.

The referendum was won by a very small majority.

Not in England it wasn't. From the BBC website (not known for their Eurosceptism): "England voted strongly for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%, as did Wales, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%".

[Silver_Shiney]

Sorry SS. Parliament does not have to implement the result of the referendum. The reason why they will, is fear of the effect of UKIP on their vote if we do not leave. In any case like it or not, the Leave camp peddled some outrageous stuff. I respect The Times, their cartoon Monday sums up the contradictions in the Leave publicity for me. I feel cheated by a rag tag of disaffected politicians who appealed to a narrow section of the total population. I don't accept that the decision is the right one for my country, and you will not influence me by keep on telling me to accept it. Any way Spandau Ballet are playing 'True', on Dorset Smooth; must go.

Do not forget the outrageous scaremongering by the Remain camp. Both sides were, in that respect, as bad as each other.

I would have been deeply unhappy had the vote been to remain, but I would have accepted it as the will of the majority and would not be calling for a re-run. Only if it had been exactly 50/50 would there be grounds for a possible fresh ballot.

You still have not answered my question.

Ray, Frank, QBob - suppose, just suppose, that Remain won and Brexiteers started bitching about the need for annulment and a second referendum. Would you entertain such a notion, or would you remind us that it was democracy in action and expect us to get used to it?

[Gill W]

Gill, it seems that you still do not understand. NOWHERE have I said the topic is no longer to be discussed. What is not acceptable is the baying for a second referendum. General elections have been settled with equally slim margins and with lower turnouts yet the supporters of the losing parties don't make this much fuss - possibly because they know they can try again in a few years, I don't know - but there are clear calls for this result to be set aside and another ballot held. That is sticking two fingers up at democracy. It's those people I am telling to accept the result, not those who wish to discuss it.

Any negative consequences will affect the Leave camp as well as the Remain camp. Any positive consequences will benefit the Remain camp as well as the Leave camp.

You say the vote was for advisory purposes only. That's the first I've heard of that. My understanding was that we were telling the government to leave, and I am disappointed that heels are now being dragged.

No, I think it"s you who doesn't understand.

I KNOW you haven't said the topic is no longer to be discussed.

But, by keeping on saying that people need to accept it, it GIVES THE IMPRESSION, that you think there is nothing left to discuss.

But there is still everything left to discuss - the result of the referendum is not the end - it is only the beginning.

I think people find it more easy to accept the result of a general election as they can vote again in 4 or 5 years.

But the referendum is about the rest of our lives and the history of our country will be changed for ever. It may even mean the break up of the U.K. This is so big - I wonder if SOME ( note I say SOME) of the Leave voters have any idea of the magnitude of the importance of what their Leave vote has set in motion.

I was going to say that I hadn't seen any baying mobs demanding a second referendum. But I've just seen pictures on the news of demonstrators - but, as the Leavers love to point out, this is a democracy - so they are free to demonstrate if they so wish.

As Frank has confirmed, the referendum was for advisory purposes only. The government are under no obligation to leave the Eu.

As there seems there is nobody in Westminster with the will to actually press the button and start the irrevocable process of invoking article 50, the Leavers must brace themselves for a lot of heel dragging.

if I'd voted leave, I'd be furious with and extended delay - but I think that's exactly what will happen.

Perhaps we could agree, if you stop telling people to 'accept it', the Remainers won't say ' I told you so', when there's been no action by this time next year!

Note the smilie - I want to keep this friendly - I don't want to be falling out with people over this

[Gill W]

Ray Scully - you are 100% right. He is dodgy, a self publicist and he will be found out quite quickly if he gains office. Unfortunately there is little credible opposition at present. These people who are trying to shut up the Remain camp forget that there were >16M who wanted to stay in Europe, and we are still entitled to want to stay in Europe, referendum or no referendum. We don't change our opinions overnight, and we are entitled to speak out. After all we have had to endure years of Europhobe whingeing from the Tory Right and UKIP.

Frank, the Brexiteers camp were just as entitled to speak out - and the majority verdict was to leave. Accept it. It's called democracy.

Both sides are entitled to speak about it.

Just because Leave won, it doesn't mean that Remain have to stop talking about it.

The referendum was won by a very small majority.

Not in England it wasn't. From the BBC website (not known for their Eurosceptism): "England voted strongly for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%, as did Wales, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%".

But the question wasn't about whether England or Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland should leave or stay.

It was about the UK as a whole leaving or staying

It wasn't about winning constituencies or regions. It was about the individual vote across the whole of the U.K. That's the only result that counts

[Silver_Shiney]

What is left to discuss is not "we wuz robbed" or the need for another referendum. What needs to be discussed is how we go forward from here. The result was a (small) majority to leave - THAT is what must be accepted, whether it is liked or not.

This country used to be Great Britain before we joined the Common Market. Now it is just Britain. There is nothing great about it. We now have the opportunity to make it great again.

I am not calling for a ban on anyone coming to this country to work and most certainly deplore those who say that foreigners already here must leave. However, I do not think it acceptable for people from anywhere coming here to milk our benefits system, or, for example, to set up camp by Marble Arch aggressively begging, pop back home with the proceeds and come back for another session. Our benefits system is way too generous, and encourages the workshy to sit on their fat backsides and live off your and my taxes. After they have been "encouraged" to get back into work, then if there are any manual jobs still vacant then by all means advertise abroad. Australia has such a system and their economy is growing - but no-one criticises them for it.

We do not need an unelected body sitting in Brussels or Strasbourg telling us we can no longer manufacture or use tungsten light bulbs or 1000W vacuum cleaners, or overruling our justice courts.

[qbman1]

Frank, the Brexiteers camp were just as entitled to speak out - and the majority verdict was to leave. Accept it. It's called democracy.

Both sides are entitled to speak about it.

Just because Leave won, it doesn't mean that Remain have to stop talking about it.

The referendum was won by a very small majority.

Not in England it wasn't. From the BBC website (not known for their Eurosceptism): "England voted strongly for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%, as did Wales, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%".

But the question wasn't about whether England or Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland should leave or stay.

It was about the UK as a whole leaving or staying

It wasn't about winning constituencies or regions. It was about the individual vote across the whole of the U.K. That's the only result that counts

...but many people still won't accept that fact. It was dressed up as a black & white decision - stay or leave. But now it has gone the "wrong" way in some eyes, there is an awful lot of wriggling going on.

[oldbluefox]

There is no way there will be a second referendum. The die is cast.
Half truths were told on both sides, but anybody who fell for them hook line and sinker would be naive. As a Brexiteer I never for one minute believed everything Brexit said but neither did I believe the threats of economic Armageddon or the possibility that peace in Europe would break down.
As for Brexit?
Control for our own destiny returned to Westminster without interference from Brussels.
Immigration: Controlled immigration based on an Australian points based system as opposed to open borders seems pretty clear to me. It's not racist.
As for the Brexit bus:

index.jpg

Can somebody tell me where it says £350 million a week will be spent on the NHS? It is naive in the extreme to think that amount of money will be spent on one area of our economy when there are others which need financial support. It means £350 million a year may be spent as we see fit rather than being passed to the EU who will give some of it back.

[Silver_Shiney]

Well said, Foxy.

I think it's possibly also pointing out that many of the migrants who are trying to get in to this country are not from Europe but Africa and the Middle East. Once they've reached the southern coasts of the Mediterranean countries, they're free to make their way up to the Channel. If there was no free movement within the European bloc, they would have been turned back long ago (or, at least, they should have been).

[Dark Knight]

A very emotive subject to be sure, but it may help if the leader of the remain camp on this forum, didn't portray the leave camp as uneducated, racist troglodytes who know nothing and it would also help if he stopped telling everyone he knows it all, a degree and a few years of sales experience doesn't make him a politician or an economist
so whilst there is much to discuss and there will be for many years to come, it would help this topic no end if the leave campaign leader would learn some manners and also learn when to be gracious in defeat
Oh and I also have a degree and lots of sales experience, but I wouldn't presume to tell anyone they were right or wrong.......just saying