"A gentleman never addresses a lady as Ms."

[qbman1]

This comment was posted on the EU thread by SS over the weekend.

Rather than run the risk of incurring the wrath of the Modplods by responding to it (off-topic) over there, I thought it might merit it's own thread!

My question is, therefore, if you don't know the actual "status" of the lady, ie Miss or Mrs, what should the correct form of address for a lady (assuming it is a "gentleman" wishing to address her !!)?

[GillD46]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know I detest the term Ms.

I also hate being addressed as Madam, which often happens on board, though accept it's easier than trying to remember everyone's names.

[qbman1]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know I detest the term Ms.

I also hate being addressed as Madam, which often happens on board, though accept it's easier than trying to remember everyone's names.

Perhaps they thought you were a "proper madam" Gill ?!

[qbman1]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know I detest the term Ms.

I also hate being addressed as Madam, which often happens on board, though accept it's easier than trying to remember everyone's names.

I know what you mean, Gill, but I don't know what the alternative is.

My current horror is the "Gender neutral title " Mx

[Stephen]

Oi, bitch.

[qbman1]

Helpful, as ever !

[Boris+]

I think that a 'gentleman' would know.

However, if a female isn't wearing a wedding ring, then it's fair enough to assume that she is not currently married, and therefore there is a likelihood that she doesn't use the title 'Mrs'.

I don't like using words such as 'lady' or 'gentleman' and unless I know that a female is a Lady then she's a 'woman' in my book - no shame in that. By the same token, if I know that a male is not a gentleman, then I use the word 'man'. I really abhor the use of the words 'lady' or 'gentleman' to refer to someone who is simply either male or female and who is behaving in such a manner which makes it blatantly obvious that they are neither a Lady nor a gentleman.

I can put up with the usage of the words 'madam' or 'sir' when it's in a customer/service situation, or 'sir' and ma'am in a situation where seniority is prescribed within an organisation (such as the armed forces, aviation etc).

In real life day to day situations, I don't like being addressed by my first name by people other than those with whom I am closely friendly or related. I really don't like being called by my first name by check-in staff - it shows a complete lack of respect at the very least.

If a woman wishes to be addressed as 'Mrs', then she should wear a wedding-type ring on the appropriate finger.

I do sometimes think though, that Ms is short for miserable - which is either the result of being able to enter a secure relationship with a man in the first place; or it's the result of a divorce.

[qbman1]

...but, if you are writing to, or about, someone you don't know and whose marital status you are unaware of, then how should you correctly address her ?

The French probably have it right where a jeune fille is always "Mademoiselle" and a lady of a certain age is "Madame" !!

[qbman1]

Merv will know - he's a true gent !!

[Gill W]

I think that a 'gentleman' would know.

However, if a female isn't wearing a wedding ring, then it's fair enough to assume that she is not currently married, and therefore there is a likelihood that she doesn't use the title 'Mrs'.

I don't like using words such as 'lady' or 'gentleman' and unless I know that a female is a Lady then she's a 'woman' in my book - no shame in that. By the same token, if I know that a male is not a gentleman, then I use the word 'man'. I really abhor the use of the words 'lady' or 'gentleman' to refer to someone who is simply either male or female and who is behaving in such a manner which makes it blatantly obvious that they are neither a Lady nor a gentleman.

I can put up with the usage of the words 'madam' or 'sir' when it's in a customer/service situation, or 'sir' and ma'am in a situation where seniority is prescribed within an organisation (such as the armed forces, aviation etc).

In real life day to day situations, I don't like being addressed by my first name by people other than those with whom I am closely friendly or related. I really don't like being called by my first name by check-in staff - it shows a complete lack of respect at the very least.

If a woman wishes to be addressed as 'Mrs', then she should wear a wedding-type ring on the appropriate finger.

I do sometimes think though, that Ms is short for miserable - which is either the result of being able to enter a secure relationship with a man in the first place; or it's the result of a divorce.

I don't wear a wedding ring (I suffer from eczema, and find that wearing rings really aggravates it) yet I've been happily married for 35 years next month.

When I'm out and about, I people normally address me as Mrs W, and I haven't noticed anyone trying to look at my hand to work out my title.

But the truth is, I don't really mind what people call me - Mrs, Ms, Miss, Gill, Gillian, Madam, Lady, Woman, it's nothing to get wound up about

[Gill W]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know I detest the term Ms.

I also hate being addressed as Madam, which often happens on board, though accept it's easier than trying to remember everyone's names.

I know what you mean, Gill, but I don't know what the alternative is.

My current horror is the "Gender neutral title " Mx

Haven't heard of Mx before. Now that one might bother me - if people couldn't tell I was female I'd be concerned!

[qbman1]

I think it was coined for people for whom the difference is immaterial !

[Meg 50]

I was bawled out once for calling my 'crocodile' of 4 years old girls as ladies.... I was told it was sexist to call females 'ladies' - it should only be 'women'....

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reckon being called a lady is a compliment - 'woman' isn't.

referring to 'that lady' sounds so much more pleasant/polite than 'that woman'

[qbman1]

I was bawled out once for calling my 'crocodile' of 4 years old girls as ladies.... I was told it was sexist to call females 'ladies'- it should only be 'women'....

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reckon being called a lady is a compliment - 'woman' isn't.

referring to 'that lady' sounds so much more pleasant/polite than 'that woman'

What a load of tosh - PC gone mad !

What do they want on the door to the ladies' loo (or do they use the "gents" lav) !?

[Boris+]

...but, if you are writing to, or about, someone you don't know and whose marital status you are unaware of, then how should you correctly address her ?

The French probably have it right where a jeune fille is always "Mademoiselle" and a lady of a certain age is "Madame" !!

I don't get wound up about this, but if someone has written to me and a reply is required, if that person has put a name (eg Jenny Smith), and no indication of a 'title', then the reply will go back to Ms. Smith - simple enough.

I think that to fail to include a 'title' with your name at the end of a written communication to recipients who don't know you is a cross between sloppiness, arrogance, and a general feckless show of behaviour.

However, it seems to the a modern day failing - this failure to use 'titles' etc - we've got the mix-up between 'ladies/gentlemen' and 'men/women'. Then there's the group greeting - 'guys' - I am not a guy, and don't expect to be greeted as such. There's also a sloppiness in the English language which is becoming more and more prevalent - and that is a crying shame.

[qbman1]

Fair point, Em - and a lot of said "sloppiness" seems to have crept over from our friends across the Atlantic.

[Stephen]

Helpful, as ever !

I do my best

[Boris+]

I was bawled out once for calling my 'crocodile' of 4 years old girls as ladies.... I was told it was sexist to call females 'ladies'- it should only be 'women'....

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reckon being called a lady is a compliment - 'woman' isn't.

referring to 'that lady' sounds so much more pleasant/polite than 'that woman'

What a load of tosh - PC gone mad !

What do they want on the door to the ladies' loo (or do they use the "gents" lav) !?

I think that on the door to the female loos on Celebrity the word they use is 'women' - the only one I've really noticed is the loo next to Michael's Club on Eclipse - and that said plainly and clearly - 'women'. Fair enough, it's plain language.

I don't much care for all this 'pc' lark of calling a female a lady when she clearly isn't; same applies to calling a male a 'gentleman' when he patently isn't. I also call a spade a spade, and not a garden improvement implement - and I'm quite capable of using one. I prefer to be accurate in using words as much as I can. Whatever next - calling a caravan a detached property???

[qbman1]

Helpful, as ever !

I do my best

I know, I know.

Whilst we are at it - do you prefer to be called "Lady" or "Woman" or "Ms" ?!

[qbman1]

I was bawled out once for calling my 'crocodile' of 4 years old girls as ladies.... I was told it was sexist to call females 'ladies'- it should only be 'women'....

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reckon being called a lady is a compliment - 'woman' isn't.

referring to 'that lady' sounds so much more pleasant/polite than 'that woman'

What a load of tosh - PC gone mad !

What do they want on the door to the ladies' loo (or do they use the "gents" lav) !?

I think that on the door to the female loos on Celebrity the word they use is 'women' - the only one I've really noticed is the loo next to Michael's Club on Eclipse - and that said plainly and clearly - 'women'. Fair enough, it's plain language.

I don't much care for all this 'pc' lark of calling a female a lady when she clearly isn't; same applies to calling a male a 'gentleman' when he patently isn't. I also call a spade a spade, and not a garden improvement implement - and I'm quite capable of using one. I prefer to be accurate in using words as much as I can. Whatever next - calling a caravan a detached property???

OK, so let's redesign the signs on the lavatory doors - "Yobbos" and "Slappers" ?!

[Stephen]

Helpful, as ever !

I do my best

I know, I know.

Whilst we are at it - do you prefer to be called "Lady" or "Woman" or "Ms" ?!

Sir, will do. And don't you forget it

[qbman1]

Aye aye

[GillD46]

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reckon being called a lady is a compliment - 'woman' isn't.

referring to 'that lady' sounds so much more pleasant/polite than 'that woman'

I quite agree.

And I think few of us when referring to a "lady" mean a titled Lady. Or maybe I just mix in the wrong circles!

[Boris+]

Oh no - don't redesign anything on ship loo doors until the ship is ready for a refit! Don't give the cruise lines an excuse for increased prices!

[Boris+]

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I reckon being called a lady is a compliment - 'woman' isn't.

referring to 'that lady' sounds so much more pleasant/polite than 'that woman'

I quite agree.

And I think few of us when referring to a "lady" mean a titled Lady. Or maybe I just mix in the wrong circles!

One needs to be so careful with this daft and incorrect use of the word 'lady' - it can be used with sarcastic intent, and that isn't nice (either to use the word in that way, or to be on the receiving end).

In the marriage words (in the UK at any rate), the person conducting the ceremony always starts with '......... to join together this man and this woman....' . I think that even in the case of members of the Royal Family getting married, those are the words which are used?

Ok - it's sloppy sticky bun time, and I'm off! Nothing brings people down to the same level quite like a messy sticky bun/cake/gateau, and there's no nicer way to do it, either! Sticky buns forever!