Current Affairs

[Mervyn and Trish]

Recent polls, post Brexit, indicate that a significant majority of Scots do not want another referendum and that if there were one more would vote to remain in the UK than last time.

[qbman1]

Since when has public demand come into it ?! The woman wants a dictatorship

[Silver_Shiney]

That might be what she wants, but what she needs is a kick up the sporran

[qbman1]

Form an orderly queue....!

[oldbluefox]

For those of you who don't tend to look in on LOTP and with thanks to Not so Ancient Mariner I rather enjoyed this clip

[Frank Manning]

I hope the Scots don't vote for independence, but since they are a proud nation lets not ignore their Remain vote and aggravate them completely. One of the main resentments for Scots is the arrogance of the out of touch Westminster rule. One of mine as well, when people keep calling the Remain camp insulting names saying "you lost". Wait and see. We could all be losers in the end, because we do have a massive balance of payments deficit and we dont have the export potential to close that gap, having sold our manufacturing industries down the swanee.

[oldbluefox]

Having just returned from a week in London I can confirm that most of them are totally and entirely clueless about the rest of the country and what goes on there. Those in charge in Westminster don't have a clue either, and that is very worrying.

[Mervyn and Trish]

So here's my fear and why I'm so irritated by the outnumbered Bremainers now bitching and trying to muddy the waters.

We have had a referendum, with the timing set by the arch Bremainer, Call Me Dave, who also negotiated what he considered the best deal he thought he could get to entice us to stay. The question was examined an re examined prior to the vote and was judged fair. We all had ample opportunity to vote, including an extension of the registration period for those who couldn't get their act into gear in the previous months. Mainly potential Bremainers if the polls were to be believed.

Those who couldn't turn up on the day had the chance to organise a postal vote, as we did. So with the exception of a small minority for whom something came up on the day we all got to vote if we wanted to. And I have not one iota of sympathy for those who couldn't be bothered to vote who now don't like the result. Talk of the result being carried by only 37% is nonsense. 52% of those who made the effort chose the path we are now on. For the rest, tough.

Donald Tusk is right, for once. We have a choice of hard Brexit or no Brexit. That was always the choice. There was no half in, half out option on the ballot. We voted to leave the EU. Full stop. Not to half leave it.

What Theresa May now has to negotiate is our relationship with the EU after we depart. There is no rule that says it has to be the Norway model, or the Swiss model, or the Canada model. The fact there are different deals tells us there is no single model. We're looking for the best possible UK model.

The EU members don't have a common idea what that looks like yet either. Most don't want us to leave at all, either because we are currently subsidising their country or because we are helping them subsidise others. When we're gone either the handouts will go down or the bills will go up. And they're scared as hell other countries will follow us out. So on one hand they don't want to make it easy.

But on the other hand we are the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. (We only slipped behind France recently on currency variations, we didn't suddenly start producing and consuming less). We are a significant market, so they don't want to stop trading with us any more than we want to stop trading with them. Tusk may be chairing the negotiations, but it won't be him facing a tough electorate in Germany, France, Poland or wherever if they screw it up.

If they offer us a crap deal they might hope to scare us into changing our minds. But if we keep our nerve and reject any such deal they lose out too. So this is a game of Poker.

What the Bremainers are demanding is we lay our cards face up on the table before we start. And that is no way to win at Poker.

I suspect that is exactly what some Bremainers want. They want us to get the worst possible deal. Some, like some EU members, so that we get scared and decide to stay after all. But I don't believe that will happen. I think TM has made it clear there is no changing our minds. Brexit means Brexit. And the EU has to believe that. The only way to play this game is for the EU to understand clearly where we stand and that our electorate's decision in the referendum trumps any view the eurocrats might have.

And other Bremainers, perversely, want us to get a bad deal so they can say I told you so.

And there are my fears. I don't want our team playing this game half heartedly with one hand tied behind their back. I want them to have the best chance of success. And I believe that after a couple of years of ups and downs we will emerge stronger as an independent sovereign country once again, intact and with our destiny in our own hands rather than those of the Tusks and Junckers of this world. I also believe others will follow us out and that if the remaining EU is to survive at all it will need to change its course and stop trying to be the new USA or USSR.

So Bremainers I don't expect you to like the result. But stop trying to sabotage our chance of making it work.

[towny44]

I hope the Scots don't vote for independence, but since they are a proud nation lets not ignore their Remain vote and aggravate them completely. One of the main resentments for Scots is the arrogance of the out of touch Westminster rule. One of mine as well, when people keep calling the Remain camp insulting names saying "you lost". Wait and see. We could all be losers in the end, because we do have a massive b3alance of payments deficit and we dont have the export potential to close that gap, having sold our manufacturing industries down the swanee.

They may well be arrogant and out of touch, but they are providing more than £1200pp in govt. spending to the Scots than the rest of the UK, for which they certainly appear to show no gratitude whatsoever.

[Silver_Shiney]

Well said, Merv

[towny44]

Well said, Merv

Fully agree with that sentiment.

[Silver_Shiney]

Your comment was spot-on, too, sir

[Stephen]

Steady on Merv, you'll blow a gasket, but I agree whole heartedly. Now, what was it you said

[david63]

I vote for Merv to be chief negotiator - sorry had a senior moment, that can't happen as he is talking too much sense!

[Jack Staff]

I should also like to add my compliments to Mervyn on a very good post (#258).
I have to admit to being surprised at the amount of common ground exposed.
Of course there is much I disagree on, but as I will have lost the right to live and work in any of the other 27 countries, I will have to stay here on our little island and try and build bridges with the BeLeavers.
It will be more difficult for them however, as they are so outnumbered, yes really. In a room of four strangers, statistically there will be one BeLeaver, one Remainiac, one couldn't be bothered and one couldn't. So tough to 74% of the population (I concede the leave vote was actually 26% not 25%).

I agree there is no option of soft Brexit, it would only mean nobody got what they wanted. There is also no chance the other 27 would agree anyway.

I also agree there is little chance of even a cr@p deal. They just want to get on. They don't want us to go as such, but as we already have the best deal we can get through 41 years of negotiation, they have zero intention of offering us anything better.

It is often stated that BMW would never allow tariffs to their second biggest market after Brexit. The reality is they are all for it. The reason being they get 27 other markets with a suddenly hamstrung JLR, Honda, Nissan....... The relocation of Mini production might be an inconvenience, but as it means more jobs in Germany, there will doubtless be E.U. funds available to them.

Someone much more knowledgeable on the subject than us said recently:
“That was pure illusion, that one can have the EU cake and eat it too. To all who believe in it, I propose a simple experiment. Buy a cake, eat it, and see if it is still there on the plate.”

The reason the Bremainers are demanding to see the cards is simply that we know there are no cards. We don't want a bad deal, we want the one we already have. "I told you so" would give me no pleasure whatsoever, as I would be suffering just the same as you.

Remainers are not trying to sabotage the chance of Brexit working, we just don't think a chance with the future of our country is a good plan.

Such a refreshing a post to read compared to the "Ha Ha We Won! Suck it up suckers!" type I read here and other places. Not a bridge, but perhaps a planning application?

[towny44]

Well your post started off fine Jack, with a distinct possibility that there might be some common ground between us.
But it then fell away badly as you sank into the well of self pity that seems the normal state of affairs for a lot of remainers, as for your supposed justification for this lack of confidence I would just point to the absurdity of one of your statements.

It is often stated that BMW would never allow tariffs to their second biggest market after Brexit. The reality is they are all for it. The reason being they get 27 other markets with a suddenly hamstrung JLR, Honda, Nissan

Its not just BMW, but Mercedes and Audi as well, with the top end of VW thrown in, IF, and that's why I put it in capitals, the rest of the 26 want or could afford luxury german cars, then they would already be buying them. However do check out the type and age of most cars next time you are on holiday in Spain, Greece or Portugal, I doubt they have seen more than half a dozen BMW salesman there in the last 10 years.
But you go on talking down the UK economy, I'm sure that it must make you feel so superior to we Brexiteers, who clearly are too dimwitted to understand your ramblings.

[Jack Staff]

Well your post started off fine Jack, with a distinct possibility that there might be some common ground between us.
But it then fell away badly as you sank into the well of self pity that seems the normal state of affairs for a lot of remainers, as for your supposed justification for this lack of confidence I would just point to the absurdity of one of your statements.

It is often stated that BMW would never allow tariffs to their second biggest market after Brexit. The reality is they are all for it. The reason being they get 27 other markets with a suddenly hamstrung JLR, Honda, Nissan

Its not just BMW, but Mercedes and Audi as well, with the top end of VW thrown in, IF, and that's why I put it in capitals, the rest of the 26 want or could afford luxury german cars, then they would already be buying them. However do check out the type and age of most cars next time you are on holiday in Spain, Greece or Portugal, I doubt they have seen more than half a dozen BMW salesman there in the last 10 years.
But you go on talking down the UK economy, I'm sure that it must make you feel so superior to we Brexiteers, who clearly are too dimwitted to understand your ramblings.

Yes, I agree. Not just BMW. I have no idea why people always just say BMW, when their is a massive German car industry, you can include Seat and Skoda, plenty of them in Spain Greece and Portugal.
I feel disappointed that Brexiteers or anyone doesn't understand my ramblings.

[Frank Manning]

I understand Jack. What I cant understand is why the Brexiteers, keep on about us being the losers, and that we should now shut up. If the arch Brexiteer Farage had shut up all these past years we would possibly never have had a referendum in the first place. Although I think his political party is now being shown in its true colours. Still the Wail et al will begin campaigning for a statue to him in Whitehall.

Interesting conversation last night with a friend who is a Court Judge. He is a bit younger than me, but he also voted Remain, and while he agrees that we are currently in unusual constitutional waters, he doesn't think any High Court challenge even if it goes to the Supreme Court will succeed. He also thinks it will be 30 or 40 years before we see the true outcome. So I wont live to see the paradise promised by the Brexiteers.

[Silver_Shiney]

Frank, we don't keep on about the Remainder being losers, we merely point out the due democratic process was done and the majority verdict (admittedly small, but a majority nevertheless) was to leave the EU. For the remain camp to call for another referendum to try for a second opinion is simply unacceptable. I have asked this several times and keep being ignored - had the result gone the other way and the exit camp demanded a second referendum, would you have denounced it as sour grapes?

[CaroleF]

Fantastic post Mervyn! I don't think anyone has promised paradise - if they have they're nuts! I'm just getting fed up with all the whining and complaining coming from those who voted Remain - my husband among them - although he's not whining I'm glad to say. He's by nature a pessimist so adheres to the saying (I think it's a Scottish one but I may be wrong) 'There's nothing so bad it can't be worse!' I've always thought his job has a lot to do with his outlook - he's a Funeral Director!

Carole

[Frank Manning]

Fantastic post Mervyn! I don't think anyone has promised paradise - if they have they're nuts! I'm just getting fed up with all the whining and complaining coming from those who voted Remain - my husband among them - although he's not whining I'm glad to say. He's by nature a pessimist so adheres to the saying (I think it's a Scottish one but I may be wrong) 'There's nothing so bad it can't be worse!' I've always thought his job has a lot to do with his outlook - he's a Funeral Director!

Carole

We are concerned for our country and for the future of our Grandchildren Carole. We see the whole thing as being hijacked by a small proportion of the country and an even smaller proportion of our elected Parliament.

[Mervyn and Trish]

It's not being hijacked by a small minority Frank. A majority voted to leave the EU. Our elected parliament is now trying to get on with that.

[towny44]

Fantastic post Mervyn! I don't think anyone has promised paradise - if they have they're nuts! I'm just getting fed up with all the whining and complaining coming from those who voted Remain - my husband among them - although he's not whining I'm glad to say. He's by nature a pessimist so adheres to the saying (I think it's a Scottish one but I may be wrong) 'There's nothing so bad it can't be worse!' I've always thought his job has a lot to do with his outlook - he's a Funeral Director!

Carole

We are concerned for our country and for the future of our Grandchildren Carole. We see the whole thing as being hijacked by a small proportion of the country and an even smaller proportion of our elected Parliament.

Frank, why do you assume we are not equally concerned about our grandchildren's futures?
We believe that a future where we are not controlled by Brussels, and in danger of being forced to join the Euro and contribute increasingly to failing economies because of the Euro, will be far less secure than being independent.

[Golden Princess]

Dont think we need to join the Euro - we nearly have parity anyway!!
What's going to happen to the NHS? And so much more.
I have so many concerns for ALL our children, grandchildren and their children. There are so many factors in play and as yet no one has been able to reassure me.
Just how much are we controlled by Brussels, or have successive governments just used it as an excuse? Now we have a government which is unleashing many policies and making decision which I feel no one actually voted for/realised would happen. With no one to rein them in.

[Silver_Shiney]

And who is reining in Brussels?

It is, of course, possible that we would have been better off staying in the EU - only time will tell - but I firmly believe that the right decision has been made.

As I said, only time will tell.