Current Affairs

[towny44]

Keep it up Jack, I think we might try and seek a trade agreement wigh Catalonia.

[Jack Staff]

Keep it up Jack, I think we might try and seek a trade agreement wigh Catalonia.

Good idea! We've tried and failed with all the other countries that actually exist at present.

[oldbluefox]

I was watching BBC Parliament this morning (I know) and they were showing a re-run of the European Parliament debate on the Brexit position so far.
I was amazed at the attacks and vitriol by some of the MEPs on Verhofstadt and Juncker.

One Irish MEP was scathing about the EU 'attitude' and openly said that unless a compromise is reached, the Irish economy will go to pot.
The same with a German and Dutch guy and a French woman.

I only watched for about half hour, but from what I witnessed, it's not all quite so unified as they would have us believe.

The 27 leaders may be signing from the same hymn sheet but many of the MEPs are not.

I think it's time to up the stakes and openly declare our hand, to see the EU reaction.

The proposition should be,
zero tariffs with existing EU countries, customs arrangements to be agreed, no border in Ireland and EU citizens get exactly the same rights as UK citizens, no more, no less, no exceptions. If they don't like it, they are free to leave.

No payment for access unless it is reciprocated and they also pay us for access to the UK market.

We will honour all payments due until the end of this budget period, i.e 2020.

We are happy to discuss separation of UK assets in the EU and come to a compromise.

We are happy to take over the pension obligations of UK members of Parliament and Commissions and incorporate it into our domestic pensions, so they need not worry for the future. I stress UK only.

Absolute freedom of movement will end (both ways) but EU citizens are welcome to apply, like any other third country.

We will ensure that absolutely no restrictions are placed on Tourism, either way, and visas will never be needed.

Then ask if that is enough clarity for them.

If the EU 'negotiators' still refuse to talk about any deal, then it's time to get ready for the inevitable.
They will have shown that they are unable to negotiate anything.

Are you David Davis' script writer? If you aren't, you should be!!!
The EU, in their refusal to make any progress on Brexit are playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship to make it as difficult as it can be to leave the EU. The comments of the Remainers actually encourage them. Time for us to say enough is enough; if you are not going to negotiate this is what we will do and then bring on Barney!!!

[Stephen]

Barney for PM

Who will second him.

[Jack Staff]

Barney for PM

Who will second him.

ME!

We need a clear voice at the moment, to end the Brexit fiasco. (Though I do not know which way it will go even then).

[Jack Staff]

Are you David Davis' script writer? If you aren't, you should be!!!
The EU, in their refusal to make any progress on Brexit are playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship to make it as difficult as it can be to leave the EU. The comments of the Remainers actually encourage them. Time for us to say enough is enough; if you are not going to negotiate this is what we will do and then bring on Barney!!!

Until we resolve the Northern Ireland question, the EU doesn't even know the name of the country it will be negotiating with.
It is us who are doing the brinkmanship and we may well walk away, with all that entails.

[barney]

The point really is Jack, that Mr Barnier is a negotiator in title only.
He is actually the mouth piece for the remaining 27 Commissioners.
You only need to open your dictionary to 'clarify' the meaning.
So far, we have seen nothing of negotiation, have we?

And as for the NI question ?????
What is the question?
Unless you know better, our nation is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and the duly elected Government represents that.
If the Republic of Ireland wished to stake claim to it, most would say, please take it, in my humble opinion.

After leaving, that will be our only land border.
We are entitled to say, that from the UK side, there will be no hard border.
If the EU decide to implement one, then they can explain that to the Irish.

On your last point, would you seriously not expect us to play a bit of brinkmanship when just walking away is always on the table.
The EU is trying to appear as they have all the cards, but they don't.
It's a two way street.
We know, they know.
They assumed that the UK would 'roll over' as all others have done previously.
They underestimated the UK's resolve and now, as the clock is ticking, many more questions are being asked of their original stance.
My guess is that these three key issues that MUST be complied with before any talks can happen will slowly fade into the background as time goes by and panic sets in.

True we may have short term difficulty in finding new suppliers but that will pale into insignificance as they try to find new customers for all of their products.
A tiny bit of research shows the true scale.

[oldbluefox]

We have tried negotiating with Barnier & Co and they have blocked us at every opportunity without putting any resolutions in place, other than monotonously repeating the EU status quo. The clock is ticking and they are the ones who are wasting our time so perhaps it's time to man up and tell them that unless they do negotiate we will indeed walk away. Better we do that rather than just roll over.
There is no reason why we cannot negotiate our own deal with Ireland to resolve the border issue to the satisfaction of the Irish on both sides of the border. It is the EU dragging its heels over the £20billion May offered them and it's the EU insisting that EU citizens have the protection of the European courts if they are working in the UK without any mention of safeguards for UK migrants. The EU train is heading in the wrong direction and it's time to bail out.

[barney]

The EU train is a great metaphor Foxy.

Mr Juncker let the cat out on his last State of the Union address.

The train's destination is a fully federal EU, with one court and one governing body. Individual Nations in name only.

All aboard for the United States of Europe.

No thanks not for me.

[Stephen]

Barney for PM

Who will second him.

ME!

We need a clear voice at the moment, to end the Brexit fiasco. (Though I do not know which way it will go even then).

I would say motion passed,but we are already up to our necks in it

[barney]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ ... servatives

I know it's from the Express and should be taken with a pinch of salt, but the very last paragraph is interesting.

[Jack Staff]

The point really is Jack, that Mr Barnier is a negotiator in title only.
He is actually the mouth piece for the remaining 27 Commissioners.
You only need to open your dictionary to 'clarify' the meaning.

The European chief negotiator, "the mouth piece for the remaining 27 Commissioners" explains it very well I think.

So far, we have seen nothing of negotiation, have we?

No we haven't. Mainly due to Diddy Davids use of 'constructive ambiguity' ensuring we don't.

And as for the NI question ?????
What is the question?
Unless you know better, our nation is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and the duly elected Government represents that.
If the Republic of Ireland wished to stake claim to it, most would say, please take it, in my humble opinion.

Exactly, so that needs to be settled before we can progress, doesn't it?

After leaving, that will be our only land border.
We are entitled to say, that from the UK side, there will be no hard border.
If the EU decide to implement one, then they can explain that to the Irish.

The Irish do not want a hard border.
The Northern Irish do not want a hard border.
The EU does not want a hard border.
As far as I am aware it is only the 'Little Englander Brexiters' who do want it. I thought that was the whole point of Brexit - To control our borders!

On your last point, would you seriously not expect us to play a bit of brinkmanship when just walking away is always on the table.

So it is us playing the brinkmanship card then?

The EU is trying to appear as they have all the cards, but they don't.

They do. It is us that wanted to leave remember.

It's a two way street.
We know, they know.

It is a one way street, to the cliff.

They assumed that the UK would 'roll over' as all others have done previously.
They underestimated the UK's resolve and now, as the clock is ticking, many more questions are being asked of their original stance.
My guess is that these three key issues that MUST be complied with before any talks can happen will slowly fade into the background as time goes by and panic sets in.

The panic has already set in. Nobody wants to be the Brexit PM. The Conservatives are doing their very best at appearing incompetent and unelectable, unfortunately, Labour are better at doing it than they are.

True we may have short term difficulty in finding new suppliers but that will pale into insignificance as they try to find new customers for all of their products.
A tiny bit of research shows the true scale.

Yes, I am seeing a lot of reports of how Germany is preparing. Efficiently, in true German fashion. But things will be a lot easier for them, because most of what they need will be in the EU after Brexit anyway. Just one example, AstraZeneca. https://www.thelocal.se/20170928/astraz ... ve-from-uk

[Kendhni]

Don't worry, the Eu is also negotiating with the Labour party.
Corbyn is weak and will kowtow to the EU demands causing disruption and blockages in the House of Commons.

The EU started with a stronger hand; the EU's hand got strengthened by the British electorate at the general election; now the EU is playing the divide and conquer game .... absolute textbook.

[barney]

The way I see it Ken is that the decision has been made by the electorate and it's now all about taking sides.
One has to ask one's self, do I side with my country or do I side with the opponent, because that is what they are now, like it or not.

If, like our friend Jack, you are happy to side with the opposition, to prove a point, that is a decision the individual must make.

At the end of the day, it's his tax money that the EU are trying to extort.

Maybe Jack thinks that it is totally reasonable that the UK pays for access to the EU market.
The South Koreans don't. Nor do the Canadians.
Why? Because the EU did a 'trade deal'

Maybe Jack thinks that the ECJ should continue to over ride the Highest UK Court.
I don't know their jurisdiction over Canada, but guess that they don't.

Maybe South Korea had to accept free movement as part of the trade deal? Don't think so some how.

It could be because Canada and South Korea send millions of tourists to the European beach resorts every summer.
Nah! not that either.

So, I'm at a loss as to why other 'third countries' are more acceptable to deal with than a county that has paid in hundreds of BILLIONS into EU coffers over the years, helped save them from Nazi oppression and is ALWAYS first to step up to the plate in a crisis.

If the EU commission had any honour or principals, they would be thanking us for our passed contributions and falling over backwards to come to a suitable arrangement, that would be mutually beneficial.

The reality is that the want to ring the very last cent out of the UK cash cow.

I believe that the UK stance has been more than generous but instead of thanks and attempting negotiation, that are stalling.

The irony is, that at the beginning, the phrase around the EU was that the UK could not have it's cake and eat it.
Now that is exactly what they are asking for.
EU citizens living in a 'third country' but wanting the same rights as if they were in an EU country?
How can that possibly work?
Is an Italian working in Saudi under the jurisdiction of the ECJ?
Of course not. He abides by the laws and rules of the country he is in.

We have Hotelier friends in Malta and they are crapping themselves about Brexit and the impact it will have on their tourism because they know that if the UK goes into recession, the first sacrifice is foreign holidays.
Just imagine the impact of Spain's fragile recovery.
12 million Brits went to Spain last summer.

Living in Kent, we see the full picture of foreign trucks bringing EU imports into this country.
Believe me when I say that it will be tough on us, but tougher on them.
We may have no oranges but they will have no livelihood.
While the EU fiddles, Europe could easily burn.

[Kendhni]

Hi Barney, I am quite happy and proud to admit that after long deliberations and considerations, I was a remain voter ... not because remain was any less ignorant than brexit but because history has shown that, as a species, the greatest advancements throughout our history have been made when we work together rather than against each other.

However, irrespective of lies told and the ignorance and fickleness shown by the public the vote was taken and the government should honour the decision. The one thing the government should not lose site off though is that it was very close and it is up to the government to take the concerns of the remain voters into consideration as well. We should continue down the path to see what brexit actual means - no one, not even the government or the EU, currently has a clue (those who say they know what brexit means really aren't worth listening to) - basically at the minute we have thrown the baby out with the bath water in the hope/belief it can be rescued.

Worse still, when the electorate had a chance to strengthen the hand of the government they chose to severely weaken it - not a bit of wonder that the EU is negotiating with the Labour party as well - when both our main parties should be working together, the EU has successfully driven a wedge between them and causing adversarial politics to rule - that will always ensure that any stance the UK takes will end up being diluted ad infinitum.

Once the cards are laid out on the table, and we know what brexit means, then I suspect that EU might make a counter offer - which may be good, may be bad, but then, for the first time, people (probably the HoC and Hol) will be able to take a vote from the point-of-view of being 'informed' ... but all that is still at least 2 years away and the impact of whatever decision we take will be felt and shouldered (good or bad) by the next generation (not us).

I am not surprised there are many people very nervous about this. Some of my old colleagues are consultants who helped to relocate businesses and jobs from overseas into various parts of the British Isles. I was talking to one a few weeks back and she was telling me that at the minute ALL their work is one way - relocating jobs from the UK to other countries (and we are talking of thousands of high quality, high paying jobs here). That is not to say that there isn't another company moving jobs the other way.

No matter what happens a lot of change was needed in the EU, but the old boys club preferred to work with the status quo and the path of least resistance (so not unlike any other government, government body or public sector department). Maybe the EU will buck up its ideas and become an attractive offering (rather than it's current behaviour which is purely self-serving).

Irrespective, the next decade is going to be very interesting - hang on for that roller coaster ride.

[Jack Staff]

The way I see it Ken is that the decision has been made by the electorate and it's now all about taking sides.
One has to ask one's self, do I side with my country or do I side with the opponent, because that is what they are now, like it or not.

If, like our friend Jack, you are happy to side with the opposition, to prove a point, that is a decision the individual must make.

I refuse to allow you to play the patriot card and what amounts to a personal insult (at the very least).

You seem happy to see the break up of my country ...

If the Republic of Ireland wished to stake claim to it, most would say, please take it, in my humble opinion.

and knowingly wish hard times on its citizens ...

Believe me when I say that it will be tough on us, but tougher on them.

That is not patriotic.

I put it to you sir, that the Remainers are the ones siding with our country.

While you might think that what you beLeave is patriotic, it is only true in some Commando Comic, Great Escape kind of way.

Similar to the Iraq war, in a few years time, when we have the 'Chilcot' inquiry into Brexit, it will be difficult to find anyone who voted for it.

[oldbluefox]

There is nothing patriotic about subscribing billions of pounds to a bloated organisation which is careering ever faster towards federalism.
It is disappointing, Jack, how selective you are in dissecting Barney's post and ignoring the essential elements relating to those countries which already trade with the EU without the restrictions they are trying to inflict on us. So far I remain unconvinced by any of the arguments you put forward to encourage me to think I may have made a mistake in voting to leave. Actually the way the EU is behaving over negotiations and what is subsequently coming out of Brussels only helps to convince me that leaving is the only option.

[Jack Staff]

There is nothing patriotic about subscribing billions of pounds to a bloated organisation which is careering ever faster towards federalism.
It is disappointing, Jack, how selective you are in dissecting Barney's post and ignoring the essential elements relating to those countries which already trade with the EU without the restrictions they are trying to inflict on us. So far I remain unconvinced by any of the arguments you put forward to encourage me to think I may have made a mistake in voting to leave. Actually the way the EU is behaving over negotiations and what is subsequently coming out of Brussels only helps to convince me that leaving is the only option.

I was selectively replying to his implication that I was unpatriotic. In the same way I am being selective in replying to your post.
I could continue about billions to a bloated or mistake in voting leave, but I think that only confuses things. I prefer item by item rather than essay by essay.

[david63]

I find it all rather futile for David Davies et al to "negotiate" anything knowing full well that whatever deal is arrived at it is highly likely that the 27 states will not unanimously agree to it (how long did it take to reach a trade deal with Canada only to be scuppered by some small state in Austria?) and if the unimaginable should happen that they do agree to it what are the chances that it will get through the HoC/HoL?

[Jack Staff]

At the request of Oldbluefox:

The way I see it Ken is that the decision has been made by the electorate and it's now all about taking sides.
One has to ask one's self, do I side with my country or do I side with the opponent, because that is what they are now, like it or not.

If, like our friend Jack, you are happy to side with the opposition, to prove a point, that is a decision the individual must make.

Covered elsewhere.

At the end of the day, it's his tax money that the EU are trying to extort.

That I am very happy to pay for the advantages it gives us (me). Especially as it was only 1.1% of my 2016 tax payments. Due to Government(s) mismanagement, 5.3% went on national debt interest. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ax-summary

Maybe Jack thinks that it is totally reasonable that the UK pays for access to the EU market.

Yes, it is our membership fee.

The South Koreans don't. Nor do the Canadians.
Why? Because the EU did a 'trade deal'

Yes and as in any 'deal' there is a cost, trade tariffs, lower than WTO, but tariffs nonetheless.
We do not pay these tariffs because we are in the EU market, so do not need (and have to pay for) access.

Maybe Jack thinks that the ECJ should continue to over ride the Highest UK Court.
I don't know their jurisdiction over Canada, but guess that they don't.

Of course not, I thought you had been doing research? Canada are not members of the EU so need to negotiate a trade deal (as above).
Personally, I don't think you can have too much 'justice', so am easy with the ECJ.

Maybe South Korea had to accept free movement as part of the trade deal? Don't think so some how.

You are confusing trade deal with free trade. I thought you had been doing some research.

It could be because Canada and South Korea send millions of tourists to the European beach resorts every summer.
Nah! not that either.

Can't make head nor tail of that. Sorry.

So, I'm at a loss as to why other 'third countries' are more acceptable to deal with than a county that has paid in hundreds of BILLIONS into EU coffers over the years, helped save them from Nazi oppression and is ALWAYS first to step up to the plate in a crisis.

The EU is happy to deal with us once we have sorted our departure. We are not the only ones to contribute to the EU, actually we pay less than Italy (2016). While we did fight for our very survival during WWII, we were helped in no small way by the squadrons of Polish and Czech pilots, the free French, the resistance fighters of all occupied countries and the country that contributed the most, in their Great Patriotic war.

If the EU commission had any honour or principals, they would be thanking us for our passed contributions and falling over backwards to come to a suitable arrangement, that would be mutually beneficial.

Don't they know we are British!
This might have worked in 1917.

The reality is that the want to ring the very last cent out of the UK cash cow.

By the[y], I assume you mean the EU. They simply want what we owe them. Negotiation is the only way here.
However, the individual member states, along with the rest of the world, want to take all they can. We are going to be ripped apart.

I believe that the UK stance has been more than generous but instead of thanks and attempting negotiation, that are stalling.

Don't they know we are British! They should be grateful for us turning up. Bl**dy foreigners.

The irony is, that at the beginning, the phrase around the EU was that the UK could not have it's cake and eat it.
Now that is exactly what they are asking for.
EU citizens living in a 'third country' but wanting the same rights as if they were in an EU country?
How can that possibly work?
Is an Italian working in Saudi under the jurisdiction of the ECJ?
Of course not. He abides by the laws and rules of the country he is in.

People have been born here, in the EU. They obviously have EU rights as EU citizens. The EU is looking after its people. It is a shame we are not looking after our ex-pats in the same way.

We have Hotelier friends in Malta and they are crapping themselves about Brexit and the impact it will have on their tourism because they know that if the UK goes into recession, the first sacrifice is foreign holidays.

That's not very patriotic, is it? Brexit means recession in the UK, and all you care about is your Maltese friends????

Just imagine the impact of Spain's fragile recovery.
12 million Brits went to Spain last summer.

So the recession the Brexiters have inflicted on the UK will hurt Spain as well. Brilliant work, we don't want to suffer alone, do we?

Living in Kent, we see the full picture of foreign trucks bringing EU imports into this country.

Have they bulldozed your house yet, to make way for the lorry park, queuing for customs?

Believe me when I say that it will be tough on us, but tougher on them.
We may have no oranges but they will have no livelihood.
While the EU fiddles, Europe could easily burn.

Every thing will be fine as long as Johnny Foreigner suffers as well as us. Brilliant work.

[Jack Staff]

I find it all rather futile for David Davies et al to "negotiate" anything knowing full well that whatever deal is arrived at it is highly likely that the 27 states will not unanimously agree to it (how long did it take to reach a trade deal with Canada only to be scuppered by some small state in Austria?) and if the unimaginable should happen that they do agree to it what are the chances that it will get through the HoC/HoL?

It was Wallonia, Belgium.
And how long will it take for Corbyn or the 'Government of National Emergency' to agree to the EU?

[oldbluefox]

Perhaps we should just roll over and let the EU squeeze us for every penny we have, just so we don't upset our European neighbours eh?
At the end of all of this Europe will still trade with UK, probably with tariffs. That doesn't worry me since we import more from Europe than we export. After 40 odd years of belonging to the bloated club I see no tangible evidence, away from the major cities, of the benefit of belonging. I see parts of the country where little has changed over the past 50 years apart from jobs lost to Europe, overstretched health and education services, antiquated road and rail infrastructure and a lack of affordable housing. Meanwhile we have lost much of our manufacturing industry which has somehow leeched to the Continent.
Some have fared very well as a consequence of our membership to the EU so I understand the pain they are feeling but the majority of us do not enjoy those benefits. Whatever Jack says they are not our friends and seeing Merkel and Macron cosying up only serves to reinforce that opinion.

By the way Jack, according to my information (European Commission) Italy contributes £85 per head more into the EU than it receives compared to £110 per head in the UK. Maybe they pay more initially but they get more back.

[Jack Staff]

Perhaps we should just roll over and let the EU squeeze us for every penny we have, just so we don't upset our European neighbours eh?
At the end of all of this Europe will still trade with UK, probably with tariffs. That doesn't worry me since we import more from Europe than we export. After 40 odd years of belonging to the bloated club I see no tangible evidence, away from the major cities, of the benefit of belonging. I see parts of the country where little has changed over the past 50 years apart from jobs lost to Europe, overstretched health and education services, antiquated road and rail infrastructure and a lack of affordable housing. Meanwhile we have lost much of our manufacturing industry which has somehow leeched to the Continent.
Some have fared very well as a consequence of our membership to the EU so I understand the pain they are feeling but the majority of us do not enjoy those benefits. Whatever Jack says they are not our friends and seeing Merkel and Macron cosying up only serves to reinforce that opinion.

By the way Jack, according to my information (European Commission) Italy contributes £85 per head more into the EU than it receives compared to £110 per head in the UK. Maybe they pay more initially but they get more back.

I think we have already upset our European neighbours. But they have already moved on and are looking to the future.
Perhaps you should worry about rising prices though.
You have noticed the benefits of belonging in the major cities. The way these benefits are distributed (excluding direct grants etc.) have nothing to do with the EU. They are the responsibility of our UK government(s). It is our government(s) that have failed us.
As a country we have benefited greatly for our membership, which has lead to higher wages. Our manufacturing has mainly gone to the far east/China. Admittedly, some jobs have been saved and transfered to other up and coming EU members, but we would have already lost these to the East anyway.

I am happy to admit I cocked up those figures and we have since overtaken Italy. But trying to sort out the actual answer I think we could easily get bogged down in boring figures depending on who gets what back, whether done by head of population, GDP ..... Lets just say we pay in less than France and Germany as I don't think there can be any dispute there.

[oldbluefox]

The way these benefits are distributed (excluding direct grants etc.) have nothing to do with the EU. They are the responsibility of our UK government(s). It is our government(s) that have failed us.

So what is the point of us giving money to the EU which they then return to us to do with as we please? That does not make sense.

As a country we have benefited greatly for our membership, which has lead to higher wages.

Really!!! That's not my experience and neither is it the experience of many others. I have seen no tangible evidence of benefit for our membership of the EU. They even get rid of their undersized oranges to us whilst keeping the best for themselves!!
One of the arguments against EU migrants in areas like Boston, Lincs is that they are suppressing local wages and actually pay no tax because of the low wages they are willing to accept. This is a dreadful state of affairs, not only for the migrants but also for the local clientele. On a more positive note those I have come across in the service sector have shown themselves to be hard-working and pleasant and should be allowed to stay (although the Remainers try to pass on the lie that they must all return to their own native lands as a consequence of the Brexit vote). The 'Little Englander' accusation does not wash with me. I welcome them for the positive benefits they bring.
But higher wages????

[Jack Staff]

As a country we have benefited greatly for our membership, which has lead to higher wages.

Really!!! That's not my experience and neither is it the experience of many others. I have seen no tangible evidence of benefit for our membership of the EU. They even get rid of their undersized oranges to us whilst keeping the best for themselves!!
One of the arguments against EU migrants in areas like Boston, Lincs is that they are suppressing local wages and actually pay no tax because of the low wages they are willing to accept. This is a dreadful state of affairs, not only for the migrants but also for the local clientele. On a more positive note those I have come across in the service sector have shown themselves to be hard-working and pleasant and should be allowed to stay (although the Remainers try to pass on the lie that they must all return to their own native lands as a consequence of the Brexit vote). The 'Little Englander' accusation does not wash with me. I welcome them for the positive benefits they bring.
But higher wages????

Yes, higher wages. However, since the 2008 crash and the subsequent seven years of Conservative austerity I can well see how some would think it is the EU that was holding wages down NOW.
The "Little Englander Brexiter" does not apply to you if you wish to see your country of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland retain its size and stature.