Brexit

[Mervyn and Trish]

Are we back to the Brexit campaign told lies while the Remain campaign was whiter than white argument?

[barney]

They have been saying that for nearly two years now, Ray.

Project Fear is officially dead and buried.

Of course things will be different when we leave the EU. That was the point of the vote.
The majority voted for change and only a certifiable idiot would vote for change and then not expect change.

Every bit bit of bad news is followed by 'because of Brexit' and every bit of good news (of which there is much) is followed by 'in spite of Brexit'

The only way that I feel I had been conned is if May agrees to some wishy washy compromise to appease the Anti Democrats in this country.

Labour will be demanding a re-run of the local elections as their predicted wipe out of Tories didn't materialise

Anyone remember the day when a result was accepted by the losing side and folk just got on with doing better next time.

There is a general election in 2022 and by then we should have left the EU.
For all of the Anti Democrats who couldn't accept the result of the referendum, they have the opportunity to lobby a party to re-join the EU.
I wonder if they will have the guts.
LibDems tried and failed.
Maybe they will try again, who knows?
Good luck to them and if they or any other party can gain enough support and win on that mandate, I promise that I will accept it.

[Ray Scully]

I really hope your right Barney. Please put my mind at rest and explain to me how Joe Public will benefit from leaving the customs union etc. not just speculation but concrete provable facts. Unfortunately it will be too late for many if the government gets it wrong.

[towny44]

I really hope your right Barney. Please put my mind at rest and explain to me how Joe Public will benefit from leaving the customs union etc. not just speculation but concrete provable facts. Unfortunately it will be too late for many if the government gets it wrong.

Ray the benefits will come from no longer being coerced into even deeper federalisation of the EU, and being able to take back total control of our trade deals and setting, where needed, our own regulations.
It was always understood that there would very likely be negative aspects to leaving the EU, but everyone I know who voted leave accepted that this would be more than worth the probable outcome if we remained members. Whether we or you will be proved correct neither of us yet know, but so far I am more than happy with the situation and the progress of the independence negotiations.

[david63]

Unfortunately it will be too late for many if the government gets it wrong.

That applies whichever way things go - whether we leave or if we had stayed in. As my boss used to say "This is not a rehearsal - it is the real thing!".

[CaroleF]

Interesting comment by Janet Daley in today's Sunday Telegraph. She speaks of an interview on the BBC with the Laura Parker the National Co-ordinator of Momentum about Labour's failure to take control in Wandsworth in the Council elections, one of the Crown Jewels it had vowed to win. It was pointed out to her that Labour had thrown everything into its fight for this borough, sending in platoons of volunteers and senior party figures. Ms Parker was undaunted by this apparent humiliation. She was quite ecstatic about what she called their "fantastic, energetic campaign" which had been such a marvellous experience for all the people who had participated in it. Janet Daley went on to say that it's when she realised for Corbynite Labour activism is the whole point of their politics, they are more concerned with the journey not the outcome.
This all seems to make a lot of sense.

Carole

[barney]

It appears all is not well in LaLa Land.

At least we are not the only country with a government that will not toe the Brussels line

https://www.politico.eu/article/europea ... ng-streak/

I can't figure out why the EU just don't go the whole hog and declare every national election or referendum 'advisory'

[Mervyn and Trish]

Or recognise that if they don't reform the party is over

[towny44]

I note that Mrs Krankie has been having discussions with Barnier, and surprise surprise they both seem to agree that the UK should stay in the single market and the customs union, who would have thought it?
On a more serious note after putting forward 2 options to solve the Irish border issue, both of which the EU say won't work even before they have explored them, Barnier and Co. still want the UK to come up with a solution. Surely the whole idea of a negotiation is for both parties to consider ways to resolve problems, not to say it's you who are wanting to leave so its entirely your responsibility to resolve all the problems, even when its EU intransigent rules that are causing all the problems.
Maybe we should remind them that "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the observance of fools".

[barney]

I think this border issue is a bit of a red herring towny, unless of course, there are Paramilitary terrorists currently hiding in trenches either side of the border, waiting to open fire the day after we leave.
It seems a load of old tosh to me.

Surely it is up to the EU to 'protect' their external border with a third country, not up to us ?

I was reading this morning that Whitehall have made little or no contingency for a no deal scenario.
Does that sound familiar?
Cameron did the same pre referendum because they couldn't lose.

The whole thing sounds a bit like Fred Karno's Circus to me.

[Ray Scully]

Hmm... being part Irish and living very near to its second capital city Liverpool and having friends who work in the North, I do not see the border problem in such simplistic terms. The years of hatred and resentment built up on the injustices ( both sides) of many decades have not disappeared, and to take the chance of reigniting them would be the ultimate folly.

[barney]

I'm genuinely curious Ray.

Have either side actually said that by imposing a soft border, hostility will resume?
Why would they?

The IRA fought for a united Ireland and the UDF fought to remain in the Union.
So what difference would any kind of border make?
There is already a border of such as the UK & Ireland are different countries, with different laws.
The impression being given is that any kind of border would split the country.... that is already split ????

The actual reality is that both the EU and the Irish will use any tactic to keep the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market and the ECJ.
https://www.politico.eu/article/barnier ... isdiction/

They have done their sums and have found that they don't add up.
https://www.politico.eu/article/4-takea ... -visegrad/

Scan down to the graph to see that eight countries will lose over 20% of funding
The worst affected seem to be the Visegrad countries.
Poor little Malta is also a big looser after many good years of excessive funding.
You should read the comments section in the Times of Malta.
The UK is not the only Eurosceptic country.

[Ray Scully]

I'm genuinely curious Ray.

Have either side actually said that by imposing a soft border, hostility will resume?
Why would they?

The IRA fought for a united Ireland and the UDF fought to remain in the Union.
So what difference would any kind of border make?
There is already a border of such as the UK & Ireland are different countries, with different laws.
The impression being given is that any kind of border would split the country.... that is already split ????

The actual reality is that both the EU and the Irish will use any tactic to keep the UK in the Customs Union and Single Market and the ECJ.
https://www.politico.eu/article/barnier ... isdiction/

They have done their sums and have found that they don't add up.
https://www.politico.eu/article/4-takea ... -visegrad/

Scan down to the graph to see that eight countries will lose over 20% of funding
The worst affected seem to be the Visegrad countries.
Poor little Malta is also a big looser after many good years of excessive funding.
You should read the comments section in the Times of Malta.
The UK is not the only Eurosceptic country.

I think we will agree to differ on this one Barney

[Jack Staff]

Hi Guys!

Have I missed anything?

[towny44]

Jack, it's good to see you back, have you changed sides since you were last here? I assume that #FBPE stands for Free Britain Post Europe, good to see you've seen the light.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, it's good to see you back, have you changed sides since you were last here? I assume that #FBPE stands for Free Britain Post Europe, good to see you've seen the light.

Haven't you heard? It's the quitters who are changing sides.
So much so that I thought I would drop by to see how many of you guys were left.

#FBPE has been very effective, even Hatey Kopkins was using it for a time (but that just publicised it even more). The new one is #PeoplesVote, check it out, you'll love it.

[towny44]

Jack, it's good to see you back, have you changed sides since you were last here? I assume that #FBPE stands for Free Britain Post Europe, good to see you've seen the light.

Haven't you heard? It's the quitters who are changing sides.
So much so that I thought I would drop by to see how many of you guys were left.

#FBPE has been very effective, even Hatey Kopkins was using it for a time (but that just publicised it even more). The new one is #PeoplesVote, check it out, you'll love it.

Sorry Jack I don't Twitter.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Jack, it's good to see you back, have you changed sides since you were last here? I assume that #FBPE stands for Free Britain Post Europe, good to see you've seen the light.

Haven't you heard? It's the quitters who are changing sides.
So much so that I thought I would drop by to see how many of you guys were left.

#FBPE has been very effective, even Hatey Kopkins was using it for a time (but that just publicised it even more). The new one is #PeoplesVote, check it out, you'll love it.

Sorry Jack I don't Twitter.

Not since you've been taking the tablets.....

[Jack Staff]

Sorry Jack I don't Twitter.

People's Vote is much more than just a Twitter handle John. It's an umbrella campaign bringing together:
Britain for Europe
European Movement UK
For our Future’s Sake (FFS)
Healthier IN
InFacts
Open Britain
Our Future Our Choice (OFOC)
Scientists for EU
Wales for Europe
Have a look here https://www.peoples-vote.uk/about

We're getting organised, unlike the Quitters who are now just blaming everyone else and each other for the ongoing Brexit débâcle.

[towny44]

Sorry Jack I don't Twitter.

People's Vote is much more than just a Twitter handle John. It's an umbrella campaign bringing together:
Britain for Europe
European Movement UK
For our Future’s Sake (FFS)
Healthier IN
InFacts
Open Britain
Our Future Our Choice (OFOC)
Scientists for EU
Wales for Europe
Have a look here https://www.peoples-vote.uk/about

We're getting organised, unlike the Quitters who are now just blaming everyone else and each other for the ongoing Brexit débâcle.

No Jack we are blaming the EU negotiators for not even considering anything the UK side put forward. Anything that does not conform to EU rules is not a acceptable to them, even though we are leaving the sinking ship they want to tie us so firmly to them that we will go down with them. That's not a negotiation, but it's the sort of thing we have come to expect from the bureaucratic federalists of Brussels.

[Ray Scully]

No Jack we are blaming the EU negotiators for not even considering anything the UK side put forward. Anything that does not conform to EU rules is not a acceptable to them, even though we are leaving the sinking ship they want to tie us so firmly to them that we will go down with them. That's not a negotiation, but it's the sort of thing we have come to expect from the bureaucratic federalists of Brussels.

Sorry for maybe appearing a tad naive, but what did we expect of the EU other than to play a hard game. Should it have been another country other than GB, say France leaving, we would be cheering such tactics.

[Jack Staff]

No Jack we are blaming the EU negotiators for not even considering anything the UK side put forward. Anything that does not conform to EU rules is not a acceptable to them, even though we are leaving the sinking ship they want to tie us so firmly to them that we will go down with them. That's not a negotiation, but it's the sort of thing we have come to expect from the bureaucratic federalists of Brussels.

Thank you John for proving my point so eloquently.

I know Leavers have a short memory, but you will remember David Davis and his 'row of the summer'?
The EU said 'this is how it's going to be'
DD said 'Yes that's fine. What time's lunch?'

That was the negotiation. It's over, DD blew it.

[barney]

Ray and our dear friend Jack are 100% correct.

Our Government have been nothing short of disastrous in the way they have handles this negotiation.
It's been a shambles from start to finish, with wishy washy May, bending like a reed in the breeze.

It's akin to having a project manager who does not really believe in the project.

It's been fascinating to watch the Channel 4 fly on the wall documentary Carry on Brussels.

The Quislings are working overtime to ensure that should Brexit actually happen, the UK get as bad a deal as possible.
You really couldn't make it up.
UK elected MEPs trying to stitch up the UK voters by chucking their force behind the EU.
Did you know that 20 UK MEPs, lead by the single Liberal in Brussels, have a monthly meeting with Guy Verhofstadt to discuss the best ways of undermining and disrupting Brexit.

Now, supported by funds from that well known 'man of the people' George Soros, the Anti Democrats are galvanising themselves for one huge push to try and thwart a legitimate democratic vote.

I do seriously fear that May will lead us to a Brexit in name only.
It could have should have been so different.

In my opinion, folk were looking for certainty and clarity.
She should have said that the UK leaves on a certain date and will become like every other country that is not an EU member.
If an agreement could be negotiated before that date, then good, but if not, we can continue to talk with the UK absolutely outside of the EU.
It's too late now becuase she has bean so weak.
An opportunity missed ?

[towny44]

No Jack we are blaming the EU negotiators for not even considering anything the UK side put forward. Anything that does not conform to EU rules is not a acceptable to them, even though we are leaving the sinking ship they want to tie us so firmly to them that we will go down with them. That's not a negotiation, but it's the sort of thing we have come to expect from the bureaucratic federalists of Brussels.
[/quote]


Sorry for maybe appearing a tad naive, but what did we expect of the EU other than to play a hard game. Should it have been another country other than GB, say France leaving, we would be cheering such tactics.
[/quote]
Not unless we were stupid Ray, if France were leaving and we were staying and wanted to stay, I would hope we would be keen to negotiate an acceptable deal to both parties which resulted in the minimum disruption of mutually beneficial trade.
But that's because I am a generous sort who prefers to make the best of any situation, and not someone who prefers to cut his own nose off just to ensure the other guy suffers most.

[barney]

You cannot argue against political doctrine towny.

Preserving the Brussels gravy train over rides everything else.