Brexit

[Manoverboard]

… or … " Nonsense, lies and exaggeration "

Should we have a vote ?

[Ray Scully]

… or … " Nonsense, lies and exaggeration "

Should we have a vote ?

Will it take the form of a referendum ???

[Jack Staff]

… or … " Nonsense, lies and exaggeration "

Should we have a vote ?

That would be the democratic thing to do. https://www.peoples-vote.uk/

[barney]

Once again I feel the need to correct your 'truth' Jack
The story of the change to EU legislation with reference to migrants undercutting wages was well covered in the UK press.
The Guardian actually ran it on the first page of their website.

Unfortunately too little, too late as far as the UK are concerned.

Even in Europe, there are serious doubts as to whether it can ever actually be enforced.
Similar to the EU ruling that any migrant who doesn't find work within three months can be removed. It has never actually happened to the best of my knowledge, anywhere.
https://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/v ... bby.679956

Freedom of movement has implications all over Europe.
The talent drain from some Eastern European countries has set them back a long way.
But as long a we have someone to make our Latte, it's all good eh!

We have a situation now that we could not have envisaged ten years ago and much of it is down to the refusal of the EU to change it's path, even slightly.
The rule makers in the EU have 100% bought into the project but the general population doesn't seem to.

The rise of populism doesn't seem to bother them. They plough on regardless.
Look what we have at the moment.
The UK has a populist left party that may well take power, led by a committed anti EU leader.
Italy has a populist right wing government.
Hungary has a populist right wing government
Poland have a populist right wing government.
Slovenia will shortly be electing a right wing populist party
France is led by a Europhobe with the second party RN being a right wing populist party.
The second party in Denmark are right wing populist.
Germany have a fragile coalition of centre right and left with third main opposition party being AFD right wing populits.

If you bothered to study it Jack, you would see that the rise of the (far) right is all across Europe.
Many of these parties are pretty anti Brussels.
The EU solution is ..... more EU.
Talk about head in the sand.

I was too young to vote in the '75 referendum but I have not come across one single person who has said that they fully understood the implication of that vote.
They were told that they were voting for a Common Market, not a political union.
I would go as far as to say that anyone who did vote in '75 and says that they knew what it meant long term is an outright liar.
History has absolutely proven that the text was buried so deeply, as to decieve the electorate.

So, in a nutshell, the UK voted to stay in , based on a huge lie.
The first opportunity it had to get out, it took it.

But the anti democrats simply cannot stand that they lost, so will do literrally anything to over turn the decision.
It is throwing up some very, very strange bed fellows

What will happen if there is another vote?
What if it's another 52/48 to leave?
Then what?
Do all the anti democrats go away?
What if it's a 52/48 to stay?
Does that over ride the original vote?

The world has gone well and truely bonkers.
And the really bonkers thing about it all is that some think it's normal and natural.

[Manoverboard]

I voted ' Yes ' in the 75 referendum but only for the single market … some years later it became clear that Ted Heath had lied threw his teeth to us but meanwhile the Governments of the day accepted the various Treaties that tied us to a Federalist State …. in the very beginning even Winston Churchill knew which way it would go but we didn't !!

Is my appreciation of events over the years.

[Ray Scully]

I was too young to vote in the '75 referendum but I have not come across one single person who has said that they fully understood the implication of that vote.
They were told that they were voting for a Common Market, not a political union.
I would go as far as to say that anyone who did vote in '75 and says that they knew what it meant long term is an outright liar.
History has absolutely proven that the text was buried so deeply, as to decieve the electorate.

So Barney nothing changes, very few new what they were v0ting for, promoting, or the implications, sadly this is very evident when you consider the almost complete failure of Messrs Davies and Co to negotiate a way out which does not do great harm to our economy and massively weaken our worldwide influence.

[Jack Staff]

No one voted for European union in 1975 as it was not created until 1992. Implemented by the John Major Conservative government.

[towny44]

No one voted for European union in 1975 as it was not created until 1992. Implemented by the John Major Conservative government.

But if you read some of the comments attributed to the EEC founding fathers you can see the way they envisaged it should develop, sadly none of this was made public in 1975 otherwise I hope I would have reconsidered the way I voted.

[barney]

That is exactly my point Jack.cheers.

[Jack Staff]

That is exactly my point Jack.cheers.

I suggest you take that up with John Major in 1992 then.

[Jack Staff]

No one voted for European union in 1975 as it was not created until 1992. Implemented by the John Major Conservative government.

But if you read some of the comments attributed to the EEC founding fathers you can see the way they envisaged it should develop, sadly none of this was made public in 1975 otherwise I hope I would have reconsidered the way I voted.

" If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can. " Winston 1946

"Whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives above all from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can — and indeed must — play our full part in it." Harold Wilson 1967

"Didn’t they hear Churchill say, “If Europe is to be a living force, Britain will have to play her full part as a member of the European family” Daily Mail June 1975

It was all public.

[Jack Staff]

The Logic of Brexit.

Leave a Free Trade Area to trade more freely

Leave trade agreements to get new trade agreements

Weaken influence to become stronger

Turn inward to be more global

Opt out by opting in

Welcome people by being hostile

Avoid customs checks by leaving a Customs Union

Keep access to the single market by leaving the single market

Maintain an invisible border by installing infrastructure

Cut red tape by adding to it

Boost investment by creating uncertainty

Boost jobs by reducing growth

Take responsibility by blaming others

Unite by creating divisions

Respect the Union by ignoring the wishes of its nations.

Enhance devolution by centralising power

Protect Consumers by reducing standards

Help workers by removing guarantees of rights

Put people first by making them poorer

Save the NHS by driving doctors and nurses away

Bolster public services by reducing tax-take

Keep the exact-same rights by removing some of them

Tackle environmental threats by leaving an environmental regulator

Ensure security by leaving security cooperation structures

Help farmers by stopping subsidies and making their markets harder to access

Help research by making funding and cooperation harder

Guarantee peace by undermining the GFA

Save money by recreating the present at substantial cost

Bring clarity by creating confusion

Replace reality with fantasy

Evidence with blind faith

Honesty with dishonesty

Policy with buII5h1t

Strategy with blagging

Possible with impossible

Leading with following

Richer with poorer

Sanity with insanity

The future with a non-existent past

:Steve Bullock

[Ray Scully]

and that Jack just about sums it up. BLOODY FRIGHTENING

[Mervyn and Trish]

But it's what a majority of people voted for. A bigger majority than have elected a government in living memory. That's called democracy. Something events in Italy have demonstrated the EU and its believers have no time for.

[towny44]

Jack, your Steve Bullock is not famous enough to be listed in Wikipedia, makes him less influential than an old Stockport county footballer!

[Kendhni]

To be honest I am not convinced that there should be another referendum, and definitely not at this stage. If there is another referendum then, unlike the last one, the government is going to have to be clear about what is on offer - so the electorate will be much better informed (something governments do not like when it comes to referendums and elections).

We know how 48% of the voting population are likely to vote but how will brexiteers vote - will they vote against something they did not want or would they continue to vote for it even if it looks like a bad deal, does not go far enough, goes too far or looks like an entire generation will struggle? Are people willing to admit that they were wrong or ill informed at the original referendum? unlikely.

I am not convinced a fair referendum could be created - the public are far too fickle

[Jack Staff]

Almost two-thirds of Tory members don’t have confidence in the Government’s handling of Brexit.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetor ... rexit.html

[oldbluefox]

We know how 48% of the voting population are likely to vote

Really?

[Ray Scully]

We know how 48% of the voting population are likely to vote

Really?

Speaking with friends and acquaintances who voted leave, many now feel we are likely to end up with the worst possible scenario, namely accepting nearly all the rules of the EU but having little or no say.

[towny44]

We know how 48% of the voting population are likely to vote

Really?

Speaking with friends and acquaintances who voted leave, many now feel we are likely to end up with the worst possible scenario, namely accepting nearly all the rules of the EU but having little or no say.

That will be status quo then Ray since the EU took no notice of anything we said when we were in the club.

[Ray Scully]

We know how 48% of the voting population are likely to vote

Really?

Speaking with friends and acquaintances who voted leave, many now feel we are likely to end up with the worst possible scenario, namely accepting nearly all the rules of the EU but having little or no say.

That will be status quo then Ray since the EU took no notice of anything we said when we were in the club.

Well John, that contradicts my understanding that GB virtually ran the show.

[oldbluefox]

Speaking with friends and acquaintances who voted leave, many now feel we are likely to end up with the worst possible scenario, namely accepting nearly all the rules of the EU but having little or no say.

Since Remainers are firmly in the pockets of the EU can we really be so surprised?

[Jack Staff]

Since Remainers are firmly in the pockets of the EU can we really be so surprised?

... unlike the Quitters who are now just blaming everyone else and each other for the ongoing Brexit débâcle.

[oldbluefox]

Since Remainers are firmly in the pockets of the EU can we really be so surprised?

... unlike the Quitters who are now just blaming everyone else and each other for the ongoing Brexit débâcle.

Who else would there be to blame..........................???
Meanwhile it appears Ken Clarke knows exactly what he wants for the country.................

quote-i-look-forward-to-the-day-when-the-westminster-parliament-is-just-a-council-chamber-kenneth-clarke-75-28-75.jpg

[Mervyn and Trish]

We know how 48% of the voting population are likely to vote

Really?

I wouldn't count on it either. Some polls have suggested that having seen the increasing arrogance of the EU since the referendum there are remainers likely to change sides too.

It's a foolish politician who tries to second guess the ekectorate. As Call Me Dave and Ozzy Osborn. Utterly convinced they could cajole the British people into accepting their pathetic compromise with the EU that was worth as much as Mr Chamberlain's piece of paper. And look what happened to that pair of weasels.

I don't pretend to know what the outcome of a second vote would be either but noone should count their chickens.

BTW if a second poll did reverse the decision I presume the House of Lords would campaign for "best of three".