Brexit

[Jack Staff]

Jack, I fear old Foxy is correct you are definitely paranoid, I'm not sure we Brexiteers are the correct people to advise you how to escape from this pit of despair you seem to have dug yourself into.

Spot on, I seek no solace here. Luckily there is a very large remain community, full of hope, compassion and a great feeling of togetherness. All things that Brexiters seem to be oblivious.

But things are rarely as bad as the so called experts would have us believe, I well remember the paranoia that descended on our IT dept when they started to believe the Millenium Bug fantasies. Highly educated and qualified staff seemed to suddenly be overcome with this lemming like rush to try and solve a problem that the wise old sages amongst us predicted was an overblown fantasy propagated by lots of money grabbing IT start ups who had suddenly found a golden goose that was going to make their fortune, and for some it probably did.

How very Brexity of you! To dismiss and belittle something you have no/limited knowledge/understanding of as fantasies, while assuming that you are amongst the "wise old sages". Many thousands of professionals worked like 'lemmings' to ensure that planes did not fall out of the sky and that you could use your cash card on January 1st.
That situation was clear. There will be a problem at this time unless we do something. We (and I include myself here) did something. The problem was solved before the time. No problem.

This is also happening with Brexit for the people who actually understand what is really going on.
John Redwood advises his clients not to invest in the UK.
Jacob Real-Smug invests in Russia.
Nigel Lawson applies for French residency.
Nigel Farage applies for German nationality for his family.
Jeremy Hunt is set to make a killing on the collapse of the NHS (dya see what I did there?)
...and what actually is Mr Mays' day job?
All your Brexity pals know what is coming.
Your confirmation bias and blind faith will not help you this time.

You can bet that amongst the hair shirt ripping remainers there will be a large number looking to make money out of this so called crisis, and some poor firms are very likely to fall for it hook line and sinker.
I understand my comments are going to fall on your deaf ears but I hope you will still be around come Brexit day to see the sun rise and the port of Dover bustling with vehicles heading unencumbered in both directions, and gradually the truth will dawn on the unbelievers that the world hasn't ended after all.

You maybe right on this. The queues may not happen. There is no profit in parked up lorries. They will simply not send them. More importantly, the Dutch today have advised not to buy British in future https://news.sky.com/story/european-bus ... t-11395908.

[Ray Scully]

What I can't understand is why all this appears such a surprise. Not to realise that the EU was going to give us anything knowing our very weak bargaining position just shows the arrogance and incompetence of Messrs Davies, Fox and Co.

[Jack Staff]

At last Jack has admitted that he is no Mystic Meg and doesn't claim to know what will happen. Hooray for that.

I'm not Mystic Meg, I have no idea which combination of events will actually happen.

[Mervyn and Trish]

Oh dear. I'm wishing now that Jack hadn't reappeared. Nothing personal, but while I'd missed his line by line rebuttals, his return has merely restarted the merry go round where we all restate our positions and no-one convinces anyone else.

I'm really tired by the notion that Brexiteers are all thick, didn't understand the question, didn't realise that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market etc, while the Remainers all have Oxbridge double firsts in international politics and economics.

For me it's easy. Over the years the EU has become increasingly corrupt, domineering and ineffcient. And by the EU I don't mean the consituent countries, many of whom recent events show are becoming as hacked of as 52% here are. Just ask the unemployed in Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal for example. They'll tell you all about the economic benefits of the EU. I mean the un-elected occupants of the gravy train who know nothing of the poverty they've helped to generate but now see a major contributor to the aforementioned gravy cutting off the supply.

I know my view is no more valid than anyone else's. But my vote, along with the rest of the 52%, was just a vaild as that of the 48%. If the 48% wanted to us to stay they should not be blaming the 52%, nor the leaders trying to deliver Brexit, but the "leaders" who tried to sell us worthless concessions from the EU, ran a toxic and ill considered campaign and then rode off into the sunset to sneer from the sidelines.

Off you go now Jack. Rebut away!

[Jack Staff]

Oh dear. I'm wishing now that Jack hadn't reappeared. Nothing personal, but while I'd missed his line by line rebuttals, his return has merely restarted the merry go round where we all restate our positions and no-one convinces anyone else.

I'm really tired by the notion that Brexiteers are all thick, didn't understand the question, didn't realise that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market etc, while the Remainers all have Oxbridge double firsts in international politics and economics.

For me it's easy. Over the years the EU has become increasingly corrupt, domineering and ineffcient. And by the EU I don't mean the consituent countries, many of whom recent events show are becoming as hacked of as 52% here are. Just ask the unemployed in Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal for example. They'll tell you all about the economic benefits of the EU. I mean the un-elected occupants of the gravy train who know nothing of the poverty they've helped to generate but now see a major contributor to the aforementioned gravy cutting off the supply.

I know my view is no more valid than anyone else's. But my vote, along with the rest of the 52%, was just a vaild as that of the 48%. If the 48% wanted to us to stay they should not be blaming the 52%, nor the leaders trying to deliver Brexit, but the "leaders" who tried to sell us worthless concessions from the EU, ran a toxic and ill considered campaign and then rode off into the sunset to sneer from the sidelines.

Off you go now Jack. Rebut away!

Thank you for the invitation.
I don't think that Brexiters are thick. I think they have been lied to by people they trust.

Anyone could stop the merry-go-round here and now. Just answer this simple question.

How will Brexit make us better off/safer/more secure/live longer?

(Us as in you and me, not the Brexity prophets who will profit. Better off as in prosperous, (say) richer than our parents. Safer as in 'health and safety'. More secure as in European arrest warrant for example. Live longer as in the supply of medicines, plus all of the above.)

Or perhaps more simply 'Brexit why?' without the sovereignty, Rule Britannia tosh.

Don't worry Merv, we know who to blame and the idea of a Chilcot Iraq style inquiry into apportioning that blame is already on the cards.

[towny44]

Thank you for the invitation.
I don't think that Brexiters are thick. I think they have been lied to by people they trust.

Jack, we fairly intelligent brexit supporters could just as equally suggest that you remainers are being lied to by the people you trust.
Can't you see the futility of continually using the same arguments to validate your views, for myself I assume that any future government will continue to do their best to address all your concerns whether we are in or outside the EU. As to whether we will be "better off" in or out we will never know, unless somehow you remainers have discovered a way of keeping tabs via a parallel universe.

[allatc]

It seems to me that the choice comes down to :

Do we want to be in slavish obedience to a bureaucratic elite in Brussels or
Do we want to be in slavish obedience to an incompetent elite in Westminster ?

the difference being we can change the incompetent elite at Westminster in a general election.

[towny44]

It seems to me that the choice comes down to :

Do we want to be in slavish obedience to a bureaucratic elite in Brussels or
Do we want to be in slavish obedience to an incompetent elite in Westminster ?

the difference being we can change the incompetent elite at Westminster in a general election.

[Jack Staff]

It seems to me that the choice comes down to :

Do we want to be in slavish obedience to a bureaucratic elite in Brussels or
Do we want to be in slavish obedience to an incompetent elite in Westminster ?

Finally, something we can all agree on!

the difference being we can change the incompetent elite at Westminster in a general election.

Only in as much as my constituency of Dunny-on-the-Wold elects one MP to Parliament, we can only change him/her.
The same is true for our MEP's. We can change our own representative(s) to the EU Parliament, but not the whole government - just the same as Dunny-on-the-Wold.

[Jack Staff]

Thank you for the invitation.
I don't think that Brexiters are thick. I think they have been lied to by people they trust.

Jack, we fairly intelligent brexit supporters could just as equally suggest that you remainers are being lied to by the people you trust.
Can't you see the futility of continually using the same arguments to validate your views, for myself I assume that any future government will continue to do their best to address all your concerns whether we are in or outside the EU. As to whether we will be "better off" in or out we will never know, unless somehow you remainers have discovered a way of keeping tabs via a parallel universe.

I was not using an argument to validate my views.

I asked a question you (and Brexiters in general) seem unable to answer.

How will Brexit help people?

Don't need a parallel universe, just use the internet, it's easy, try it .... http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-uk-ec ... 010-2018-2

[Manoverboard]

Exactly, we will sink or swim but by the due process of UK decision makers.

Out of interest ( Jack ) I voted on the basis of my living experience in the real World, it had absolutely nought to do with the lies spouted from either side. My mind was already made up and I simply preferred the lies from the side that I had intended to support.

[Jack Staff]

Exactly, we will sink or swim but by the due process of UK decision makers.

Out of interest ( Jack ) I voted on the basis of my living experience in the real World, it had absolutely nought to do with the lies spouted from either side. My mind was already made up and I simply preferred the lies from the side that I had intended to support.

Priceless!

[Manoverboard]

Indeed so … but I suspect that many folk will have done exactly the same thing having made up their minds years ago that they want to get the hell out of the EU / really enjoy being in the EU. Surely you do not believe that the majority didn't have a clue which way to vote and needed to wait for information to be fed to them before deciding … a minority maybe.

[Jack Staff]

I've been asking MPs of a certain age and endowed with parliamentary memory whether they can think of any precedent for what will happen on Tuesday - namely a government asking MPs to reject serious proposals that would shape the economy and governance of the UK for generations to come, without actually being able to offer those MPs a detailed alternative plan.

Perhaps it may surprise you that everyone I've approached has said that Theresa May is attempting something in the House of Commons without proper precedent - and most of them argue, even a few ardent Brexiters, that what she is doing is wrong,

It is seen as degrading the status of MPs to ask them - as she is - to vote against their consciences, which tell many of them that the UK should stay in the customs union, that it is paramount the Ireland border should remain open and that MPs should be able to force the PM back to the negotiating table if they don't like final Brexit terms, without explaining what her alternative and cunning plan may be.

That is why the resolve of rebel Tory MPs to defy her whip and will is being reinforced. And there is a serious risk for her that the usual dozen of ultra-Remainy Conservative troublemakers will be joined by colleagues normally seen as May loyalists - but whose patience is being sorely tested by the conspicuous absence of a Brexit trade policy worth the name.

That patience was challenged again by the PM a few minutes ago in answering Corbyn at PMQs, when she refused even to give guidance on when a Brexit white paper - designed to set out the government's negotiating position - will be published.

But if Tuesday's votes are in and of themselves taking us into uncharted territory, the aftermath will almost certainly do that too.

Because if May loses the votes she will do her utmost to ignore them. And in the case of the customs vote, that would be theoretically possible for her, since its status is largely symbolic.

But if she is defeated, there could no longer be any doubt that the will of parliament is for the UK to stay in a customs union.

So with confidence in politicians and our polity so fragile, the PM would presumably think twice before treating Parliament as a tinpot talking shop whose views are contemptible.

But how she avoids doing that, without simultaneously conceding that the kernel of her Brexit strategy is bankrupt, would take some doing?

Brexit was supposed to be about taking back control. Right now, either Parliament or the PM and her executive are in danger of being castrated.

Robert Peston:

[Ray Scully]

Indeed so … but I suspect that many folk will have done exactly the same thing having made up their minds years ago that they want to get the hell out of the EU / really enjoy being in the EU. Surely you do not believe that the majority didn't have a clue which way to vote and needed to wait for information to be fed to them before deciding … a minority maybe.

and of course there would be those who made up their minds having considered the case as put by those erstwhile red tops the Mail & Express

[Manoverboard]

Indeed so … but I suspect that many folk will have done exactly the same thing having made up their minds years ago that they want to get the hell out of the EU / really enjoy being in the EU. Surely you do not believe that the majority didn't have a clue which way to vote and needed to wait for information to be fed to them before deciding … a minority maybe.

and of course there would be those who made up their minds having considered the case as put by those erstwhile red tops the Mail & Express

Absolutely Ray but the influences would logically have gone either way rather than all, for example, to the Exit cause.

[oldbluefox]

and of course there would be those who made up their minds having considered the case as put by those erstwhile red tops the Mail & Express

......................................as opposed to the Guardian and Independent.
That argument can be applied at all levels. Perhaps Remainers should give credit to those who do not rely on being force fed. Neither are they xenophobic, anti Europe or racist. Some MPs and Remainers are still hanging on to the £350 million which COULD go to the NHS. Give me strength!!!

[oldbluefox]

I asked a question you (and Brexiters in general) seem unable to answer.

No point. We have already gone down that road ad infinitum. What is the point of going over the same ground over and over again?

[Jack Staff]

I asked a question you (and Brexiters in general) seem unable to answer.

No point. We have already gone down that road ad infinitum. What is the point of going over the same ground over and over again?

Anyone could stop the merry-go-round here and now. Just answer this simple question.

So you can't either. There is no benefit to the British people.

Unless anyone else wants to chip in, I think that question is finally answered.

[towny44]

I asked a question you (and Brexiters in general) seem unable to answer.

No point. We have already gone down that road ad infinitum. What is the point of going over the same ground over and over again?

Anyone could stop the merry-go-round here and now. Just answer this simple question.

So you can't either. There is no benefit to the British people.

Unless anyone else wants to chip in, I think that question is finally answered.

What benefits would you like Jack, higher youth unemployment, more pointless Brussels red tape regulations, being forced to join the Euro, fishing quotas reduced to a fish pond net full, being forced to accept an increased quota of economic migrants plus anything else Brussels conjures up?

[oldbluefox]

I asked a question you (and Brexiters in general) seem unable to answer.

No point. We have already gone down that road ad infinitum. What is the point of going over the same ground over and over again?

Anyone could stop the merry-go-round here and now. Just answer this simple question.

So you can't either. There is no benefit to the British people.

I didn't say that Jack. I'll repeat what I did say:
"No point. We have already gone down that road ad infinitum. What is the point of going over the same ground over and over again?"

The answers you are looking for lie 500 posts or so back so why keep asking the same question?

[oldbluefox]

What benefits would you like Jack, higher youth unemployment, more pointless Brussels red tape regulations, being forced to join the Euro, fishing quotas reduced to a fish pond net full, being forced to accept an increased quota of economic migrants plus anything else Brussels conjures up?

Seems a fair price to pay if you are a Remainer, towny. The Euro Army will always look after you and subsequently reduce the high unemployment amongst the youth in Italy, Spain and Greece.

[Jack Staff]

You guys only had to say higher GDP or better healthcare or something (that was actually true).

But you prefer to waffle and obfuscate and carry on the pretence. Never mind.

Another Davis, sorry day tomorrow.

[oldbluefox]

Anyone could stop the merry-go-round here and now. Just answer this simple question.

So you can't either. There is no benefit to the British people.

What benefits would you like Jack, higher youth unemployment, more pointless Brussels red tape regulations, being forced to join the Euro, fishing quotas reduced to a fish pond net full, being forced to accept an increased quota of economic migrants plus anything else Brussels conjures up?

Are you not going to respond to towny's post, Jack? It seems to me you tend to ignore any points you don't like but maybe in your rosy EU world all is absolutely hunky-dory.
Put it like this................ If the EU was so wonderful the result would have been overwhelmingly unanimous in favour irrespective of how much it cost us as a country. So how do you account for that which appears to be a paradox?

[Jack Staff]

Anyone could stop the merry-go-round here and now. Just answer this simple question.

So you can't either. There is no benefit to the British people.

What benefits would you like Jack, higher youth unemployment, more pointless Brussels red tape regulations, being forced to join the Euro, fishing quotas reduced to a fish pond net full, being forced to accept an increased quota of economic migrants plus anything else Brussels conjures up?

Are you not going to respond to towny's post, Jack?

I asked a very simple question. He avoided answering by asking a question.

It seems to me you tend to ignore any points you don't like but maybe in your rosy EU world all is absolutely hunky-dory.

I was ignoring him trying to change the subject to something he thinks he will be more comfortable.

Put it like this................ If the EU was so wonderful the result would have been overwhelmingly unanimous in favour irrespective of how much it cost us as a country. So how do you account for that which appears to be a paradox?

I asked a very simple question. You are avoiding answering by asking a question.

You guys clearly have no answer to how Brexit will benefit the British people.

So lets move on to how long the fiasco will last. Maybe not even as long as lunchtime if Davis does the dirty.