Brexit

[Jack Staff]

I know very well that you guys disagree/disbelieve pretty much everything I have previously written, but I would have thought that it might just of given you an inkling that the situation is actually a tad more complicated than you want to believe.

[oldbluefox]

I know very well that you guys disagree/disbelieve pretty much everything I have previously written, but I would have thought that it might just of given you an inkling that the situation is actually a tad more complicated than you want to believe.

I realise you might believe you are the fount of all Remainer knowledge and are firmly entrenched in your views but comments such as this are typical of the patronising attitude of the Remain camp which I find quite offensive. You can feel reassured that we do understand the situation is complicated. The easiest route would be to continue with the status quo and remain. However just because you have a different point of view does not mean it is the right one. Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
We have tried negotiating and it is clear the EU want UK to remain (and cannot afford to lose the benefits to them which our membership brings) and believe that by being obstructive and having the support of the Remain camp within the UK they can reverse the decision. It is high time we stopped trying to appease them and stand up for ourselves. They say we have taken nothing to the negotiating table but every initiative we have put forward is rebutted because 'the UK cannot cherry pick' and they have their 'rules'.
I hope you realise I have not corrected your typo.......................

[towny44]

I know very well that you guys disagree/disbelieve pretty much everything I have previously written, but I would have thought that it might just of given you an inkling that the situation is actually a tad more complicated than you want to believe.

Jack, The complications seem to stem from the unwillingness of Barnier and the EU to negotiate and compromise on anything, as when he states that it is impossible for the UK to have the benefits of the EU without wanting to fulfill all the responsibilities, his view of cherry picking. Do all other countries with a trade deal with the EU fully meet all EU responsibilities?
As regards trade we have in place a system which currently allows easy movement of goods between the UK and the EU, surely it is not beyond the wit of the various Govt IT depts to use this as the template and apply the further checks that would be needed to ensure that the correct tariffs and regulations apply when non EU goods are included in any manufactured goods being exported from the UK to the EU. I bet Amazon would have a system up and running in days.

[Jack Staff]

I am actually shocked that in this stage of proceedings you guys are still clinging so tenaciously to the fantasy.

[towny44]

I am actually shocked that in this stage of proceedings you guys are still clinging so tenaciously to the fantasy.

[Manoverboard]

Poor old Jack …. knows about Politics but nought about negotiating tactics, or so it seems.

On one side we have a Government who is making out that disarray is the order of the day, one that refuses to publish the Master Plan, one that keeps the Press fed with mis-information and one that looks weak at the knees.

On the other side we have an arrogant bully boy set of bureau-brats who expect to get everything their own way … but at the eleventh hour they will discover that all is not what it seems.

Viva la Brixette par favore Mon Dieu

[Jack Staff]

Poor old Jack …. knows about Politics but nought about negotiating tactics, or so it seems.

On one side we have a Government who is making out that disarray is the order of the day, one that refuses to publish the Master Plan, one that keeps the Press fed with mis-information and one that looks weak at the knees.

There is no master plan, mis-information = lies, weak at the knees? I would 'of' thought the lack of backbone was more of a problem.

On the other side we have an arrogant bully boy set of bureau-brats who expect to get everything their own way … but at the eleventh hour they will discover that all is not what it seems.

They expect to get everything that David Davis has previously agreed to.

Viva la Brixette par favore Mon Dieu

Testiculi ad Brexitam

[oldbluefox]

I am actually shocked that in this stage of proceedings you guys are still clinging so tenaciously to the fantasy.

Don't worry about it Jack. That's entirely understandable when you've got your head stuck in the sand.

[Jack Staff]

I am actually shocked that in this stage of proceedings you guys are still clinging so tenaciously to the fantasy.

Don't worry about it Jack. That's entirely understandable when you've got your head stuck in the sand.

[Jack Staff]

As I think we have currently reached an impasse in this discussion, perhaps it would help if we had things explained for us....
https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/lov ... s-12670617

[oldbluefox]

I believe Hayley was George Osborne's script writer...................
Oh dear, give me strength. And to think what the suffragettes went through to get women the vote.

[barney]

To be honest Foxy, this doesn't seem to be all that strange with many young people.

A friend of mine who owned a manufacturing company told me this true story of his employees when discussing it all pre Brexit

He has 14 employees - 3 over sixty - 4 between 40 & 60 - 7 between late teens and 30.

All three over sixty voted Brexit
Two of the 40-60 voted Brexit and two voted Remain
None of the under 30s voted at all, the youngest two didn't even realise that there was a vote going on and the other five said that they didn't give a toss either way, so didn't bother

He said that he was pretty surprised given that the youngsters would be most affected.
I recall Anna Soubrey saying immediately after the decision that her own daughter had not voted as she found her voting card on her bedside table.


Jack Staff and I are in total agreement that they whole thing has been handled very badly by this Government.
Our difference is that I believe that we should have played it all very much tougher than May has.
I read in the Observer that the EU seem to think that the £40 billion bribe money will still be due even if no agreement is reached.

[Mervyn and Trish]

The EU are clearly wrong and naive. The £40 billion was conditional on reaching a trade deal. No deal no cash.

Everything they do is aimed at slowing or scuppering the process. Individuals have clearly said they'd like us to change our minds. If they want that then alongside the deal to go they should offer a deal to stay - a lot better than the pathetic bodge they offered Dall Me Dave.

One obvious thing to me emerges from conversations with a Remainer friend. He believes the number of people who move here to claim benefits and scrounge is a tiny percentage of the total. Therefore the EU have nothing to lose if they amend the blanket freedom of movement to freedom of movement of labour. i.e., no-one moves unless they have a job already guaranteed. And no-one claims benefits of any kind until they've been here five years. And all benefits to be paid by the country of which the person is a citizen.

That would persuade a lot of remainers to change tack.

[oldbluefox]

So anybody from outside the EU landing on the shores of Italy, Greece, France or wherever and obtaining European citizenship is able to travel and live anywhere in the EU without question? What has that actually got to do with 'trade' apart from being one of 'the rules'? Genuine question.

[Jack Staff]

The EU are clearly wrong and naive. The £40 billion was conditional on reaching a trade deal. No deal no cash.

The UK government might like to think that, but they are wrong.

The £40 billion is non negotiable. It is us settling our bar bill. Monies we have committed to paying in the past.
{True, we can argue about who had a starter and the like, but about 40 billion stands, whatever}

[Jack Staff]

So anybody from outside the EU landing on the shores of Italy, Greece, France or wherever and obtaining European citizenship is able to travel and live anywhere in the EU without question?

Yes, but to obtain European citizenship you first have to climb up four stories outside of a building to save a child.
Other methods are possible but are much more difficult.

What has that actually got to do with 'trade' apart from being one of 'the rules'? Genuine question.

To create a 'free market' there has to be a free market of workers too.

[Ray Scully]

Brexiteers: Is the real "elephant in the room" concern over Germany's disproportional influence"

At a social event on Saturday and concern over the German grip on the EU was chatted about, not surprising given straight talking Lancastrians.

[oldbluefox]

What has that actually got to do with 'trade' apart from being one of 'the rules'? Genuine question.

To create a 'free market' there has to be a free market of workers too.

But we are trading goods and services, not human beings (workers). I am talking about a trading agreement. There is no logic between trading goods and services and giving free access to workers/citizens you do not need.
I once heard it said 'But you can go and freely work elsewhere in the EU'. True, but who on earth wants to go and work in some of those far eastern states unless they are off their tiny rockers? And before we had the EU you could get a work permit and work wherever in Europe you wanted, as long as you had work to go to.

[Jack Staff]

But we are trading goods and services, not human beings (workers). I am talking about a trading agreement. There is no logic between trading goods and services and giving free access to workers/citizens you do not need.

This is why disgraced former Defence Minister Dr. Liam Fox has failed so spectacularly.
Remember Australia and India trade deals? Why has that all gone quiet? Because they wanted free movement/no visa provisions as part of the deal.

[oldbluefox]

Because they wanted free movement/no visa provisions as part of the deal.

From the articles I have read I don't think that is quite correct. The Australians and the Indians were looking for a more relaxed approach to visa requirements compared to what is currently in place eg the ability of Australian executives to work in UK as part of trade deals with their own companies, Indian chefs coming to work in UK who cannot satisfy the £30,000pa requirement.

[Jack Staff]

Because they wanted free movement/no visa provisions as part of the deal.

From the articles I have read I don't think that is quite correct. The Australians and the Indians were looking for a more relaxed approach to visa requirements compared to what is currently in place eg the ability of Australian executives to work in UK as part of trade deals with their own companies, Indian chefs coming to work in UK who cannot satisfy the £30,000pa requirement.

You may well be right. I do not memorise the details of every failed trade deal.
But the concept is clear. Workers form part of trade deals.

[barney]

But we are trading goods and services, not human beings (workers). I am talking about a trading agreement. There is no logic between trading goods and services and giving free access to workers/citizens you do not need.

This is why disgraced former Defence Minister Dr. Liam Fox has failed so spectacularly.
Remember Australia and India trade deals? Why has that all gone quiet? Because they wanted free movement/no visa provisions as part of the deal.

Why would Australia and India want their brightest and best to leave their mother country to profit some small island on the edge of Europe?
I can just imagine the chat in the Aussie Parliament.
" I got a great idea Bruce. Why don't we spend a small fortune training doctors and then encourage them to work in the UK"

Just imagine in India
"let's spend loads of money training up the best IT technicians in the world. They will do great in the UK tech market. Elephant & Castle, here we come"

Dear, dear, dear Jack.
Take another pill and lie down.

The real elephant in the room and one that should be put to the anti democrat MPs is, why did you vote for the referendum and why did you vote to invoke article 50?
Chukka, Anna, Mad Ken ?
You all voted for these in Parliament.
Why did you vote for something that you were so dead set against?

I see that we are back to 'the Russians done it' again.
Gives Cambridge Anylitica a break I suppose.

Why can't the losers just admit that they fought a rubbish campaign?
The paradox is that during the Scottish referendum, the Government fought a campaign focussing on the positivity of staying in the union.
Last time it was purely Project Fear.

While we are off topic a bit, why are Scottish Nationalists acceptable but English Nationalists are swivel eyed loony racists?
What's the difference?

[Ray Scully]

why are Scottish Nationalists acceptable but English Nationalists are swivel eyed loony racists?
What's the difference?

Something I have been trying to figure out for ages

[Jack Staff]

why are Scottish Nationalists acceptable but English Nationalists are swivel eyed loony racists?
What's the difference?

Something I have been trying to figure out for ages

Scottish Nationalists want to be free of rule from another country. (Before you say anything, Brussels is not a country).
English Nationalists want to carry on ruling the other Home nations = swivel eyed loony racists.

Scottish Nationalists are actually patriots, wanting what is best for their country.
English Nationalists just want to tell everyone their country is best. = swivel eyed loony racists.

Scottish Nationalists are inclusive, trying to build a better Scotland for everyone.
English Nationalists are ethnic, seeking to unite the indigenous population against the perceived threat of outsiders. = swivel eyed loony racists.

Scottish Nationalists give away baby boxes.
English Nationalists run uncontrollably around their capital city, fighting with Police, giving Nazi salutes, demanding someone is released from prison who pleaded guilty. = swivel eyed loony racists.

English Nationalists actions will lead to the break up of their (real) country (the UK), not very patriotic. = swivel eyed loony racists.

[Mervyn and Trish]

The EU are clearly wrong and naive. The £40 billion was conditional on reaching a trade deal. No deal no cash.

The UK government might like to think that, but they are wrong.

The £40 billion is non negotiable. It is us settling our bar bill. Monies we have committed to paying in the past.
{True, we can argue about who had a starter and the like, but about 40 billion stands, whatever}

Maybe you should read Article 50 Jack. Basically all is agreed or nothing is agreed. Yes it is true part of the £40 billion is settling our bar bill. About half of it. The other half is for several rounds of drinks the other members will enjoy at our expense after we've left the party.

So if we crash out and don't pay how will they get the money? Send the boys round?