Brexit

[Onelife]

I'm sure most of you contributing on this topic will have a greater understanding as to what the chequers plan entails.....as for the rest of us l have just copied this.....

The UK would accept continuing “harmonisation” with EU rules on the trade in goods to ensure as much frictionless trade as possible.


• Parliament would have the final say over how these rules are incorporated into UK law, retaining the right to refuse to do so and veto new ones that it regards as unacceptable.

•There will be different arrangements for trade in services, including financial products, with greater “regulatory flexibility” and “strong reciprocal arrangements” – but this means 80% of the UK economy will be outside the harmonised regulatory arrangement.

•Freedom of movement as it stands will come to an end but a “mobility framework” will ensure UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other’s territories and apply to study and work.

•A new customs arrangement will be phased in, with the goal of “a combined customs territory”.

•The UK will be able to control its own tariffs and develop an independent trade policy. The jurisdiction of the European court of justice will end, but the UK will pay regard to its decisions in areas where common rules were in force.
...........

'If' Theresa can pull this one off l think many brexiters would go along with these proposals, sadly the Brussels dictators won't let us have our cake and eat it......indeed they'll be wanting to cut more slices out of the cake and leave us with just the crumbs.


I can't see the EU accepting what is on the table so a hard Brexit looks to be the only way forward?


The intricacies of unravelling a hard Brexit would be immense, and painful, but we will get there.....We are the United Kingdom.....We lead others follow.


Come on England!!

[barney]

I concur with all of that Keefy.

The twist is as soon as the UK vetos a new EU ruling, of which there are thousands as we all know, the wheels will come off.
Then the UK can make the decision to stay so closely aligned or do our own thing.
It doesn't tie the hands of future governments but there will be consequences.
But that will be our decision, not theirs.

As someone who voted Leave, I can live with all of this while we get our ducks in a row.
I agree that it's unlikely that the EU will accept in it's current form.

[Jack Staff]

Most of that seemed like a reasonable counter argument, even for you Jack, then you had to go and spoil it with the last sentence.

'A Government of National Unity' ???

Coalition by another name.

There is no unity in any political party,

That's why politicians will come up with stupid name like Government of National Unity!

Greens apart, and only them because they only have one MP, so have no one to fall out with.
Even the dozens or so Liberals manage to fall out with each other.
I've figured out why.
It's because they are all 100% correct.

I was listening to the radio this morning and they were wondering where Labour go from here because May's white paper is pretty much what Labour's policy has been.
Can they vote it down ?
I reckon that they will try out of habit but it will pass anyway.

"Labour deputy leader Tom Watson says it's "not a question of Labour trying to bring the government down, it's actually a question of Labour trying to help the government get a good deal and try and stop the government bringing itself down" {Sky}

As I have tried explaining to Merv, at the last GE it was an anti-Tory vote. Not a pro Labour vote. The Remainers will not make that mistake again.

[Jack Staff]

The chequers deal is only a deal for the Conservatives to agree to.
To try and unite the party. Just like Brexit.
The deal has already failed (resignations).
Which does save time as the EU said that what they came up with last week was a non starter two years ago.

[Jack Staff]

The intricacies of unravelling a hard Brexit would be immense, and painful, but we will get there.....

So why do it?

... and by "there" do you mean Johnson's now discredited "sunlit uplands"?

[barney]

Bizarrely the anti-Tory vote still made them by far the largest party.
Any explanation to that paradox?

I've always lent more towards the left than the right but seriously cannot see Labour winning with Corbyn in the driving seat.
One just has to look at his top table to realise that there are miles out of their depth.
McDonnell = 70's throwback in a digital age
Abbott = barely literate
Thornbury = a lightweight who wouldn't get a frontbench job under any other leader.
I couldn't really mention any more as they are invisible and irrelevant.
Then we have old Jezza, the serial opposer.
You name the policy and he'll oppose it.
He's so out of step with the aspiations of normal folk on the ground that he's been rejected by most in Labour heartlands.
He appeals to the metropolitan right on liberals who claim to speak for the ordinary folk while quaffing their chablis and spending there spare time in Tuscany.
People like Polly Toynbee and Afua Hirch who have never done a days work in their lives.
He is bigged up by journos like Owen Jones. Another bordering on hysteria and dare I say it, mental illness.
What we need is this. What we need is that. He is merely rent an opinion who actually speaks for on one but himself.

As 2022, approaches, it will become clearer that Labour cannot regain power with Jezza at the helm.
Unless a serious political heavyweight is willing to stand up and challenge him, we must be resigned to more years of Tory rule.

They used to say that a week was a long time in politics.
Well now, a day is a long time in politics.
Things change very, very rapidly.

Many of the anti democracy brigade who seem intent in destroying their own country, purely to prove their point, will be disappointed to find that we come out the other side pretty well unscathed. Of course things will be different. That was the whole point of it.

Then, whatever happens in the future, it will be because of Brexit, or if we are doing ok it will be in spite of Brexit or would have been even better had we stayed.
Just wait until the next recession. One guess what will be blamed.

[barney]

The chequers deal is only a deal for the Conservatives to agree to.
To try and unite the party. Just like Brexit.
The deal has already failed (resignations).
Which does save time as the EU said that what they came up with last week was a non starter two years ago.

So by that simple statement Jack, you admit that there is no deal to be done and that the UK must simply leave without a deal.
The only other option would be to remain as we were, but that is no longer on the table, so is irrelevant to the discussion.
You defeat your own argument ?

[Jack Staff]

The chequers deal is only a deal for the Conservatives to agree to.
To try and unite the party. Just like Brexit.
The deal has already failed (resignations).
Which does save time as the EU said that what they came up with last week was a non starter two years ago.

So by that simple statement Jack, you admit that there is no deal to be done and that the UK must simply leave without a deal.
The only other option would be to remain as we were, but that is no longer on the table, so is irrelevant to the discussion.
You defeat your own argument ?

The UK's idea of what is possible needs to change dramatically. There is a slim chance of a deal, but it would be a deal both of us hate.
So yes, I believe it's cliff edge catastrophe Brexit or remain, being the most likely options.
Remain may not be on the table at the moment, but this governments (in)actions means we are still on the starters.

[barney]

Remain is not and won't be on the table Jack.
We leave in end of March next year. That's about eight months in my book.
The two main parties stood on a clear manifesto of honouring the result.
The only difference between them is how we leave.

Unless you know something that neither May or Corbyn do, I'd say that's wishful thing at best and totally deluded at worst.
Would you really suggest that either Party would advocate proposing a disregard for the vote and lobby to remain in.
Now, that would be political suicide.

[Jack Staff]

Bizarrely the anti-Tory vote still made them by far the largest party.
Any explanation to that paradox?

Corbyn

I've always lent more towards the left than the right but seriously cannot see Labour winning with Corbyn in the driving seat.

Yup

One just has to look at his top table to realise that there are miles out of their depth.
McDonnell = 70's throwback in a digital age
Abbott = barely literate
Thornbury = a lightweight who wouldn't get a frontbench job under any other leader.
I couldn't really mention any more as they are invisible and irrelevant.
Then we have old Jezza, the serial opposer.
You name the policy and he'll oppose it.
He's so out of step with the aspiations of normal folk on the ground that he's been rejected by most in Labour heartlands.
He appeals to the metropolitan right on liberals who claim to speak for the ordinary folk while quaffing their chablis and spending there spare time in Tuscany.
People like Polly Toynbee and Afua Hirch who have never done a days work in their lives.
He is bigged up by journos like Owen Jones. Another bordering on hysteria and dare I say it, mental illness.
What we need is this. What we need is that. He is merely rent an opinion who actually speaks for on one but himself.

As 2022, approaches, it will become clearer that Labour cannot regain power with Jezza at the helm.
Unless a serious political heavyweight is willing to stand up and challenge him, we must be resigned to more years of Tory rule.

The Conservatives are now toxic.
I have an idea they will split. Possibly Labour too. SDP v2?!

They used to say that a week was a long time in politics.
Well now, a day is a long time in politics.
Things change very, very rapidly.

SDP v2! Who knows? But it is fun to watch the Labservatives tear themselves apart. Just think what the effect of Brexit on the country as a whole will be.

Many of the anti democracy brigade who seem intent in destroying their own country, purely to prove their point, will be disappointed to find that we come out the other side pretty well unscathed. Of course things will be different. That was the whole point of it.

What's this anti democracy nonsense? I want my say. That is democracy. "pretty well unscathed" ? Dream on.

Then, whatever happens in the future, it will be because of Brexit, or if we are doing ok it will be in spite of Brexit or would have been even better had we stayed.
Just wait until the next recession. One guess what will be blamed.

The next recession is already starting and yes, it is the fault of Brexit.

[barney]

What's this anti democracy nonsense? I want my say. That is democracy

You had it in June 2016.
You lost.
Your next say on the issue will be when/if there is a referendum to join the EU.
Or, if any political party stands on that manifesto.

What do you want, best of three ?

Any person who now cannot go along with the majority vote must be considered anti democratic, no matter what the issue or the result.
To disregard the right of the victor would lead to anarchy. You would have to question what is the point.

[Jack Staff]

What's this anti democracy nonsense? I want my say. That is democracy

You had it in June 2016.
You lost.
Your next say on the issue will be when/if there is a referendum to join the EU.
Or, if any political party stands on that manifesto.

What do you want, best of three ?

Any person who now cannot go along with the majority vote must be considered anti democratic, no matter what the issue or the result.
To disregard the right of the victor would lead to anarchy. You would have to question what is the point.

The vote was illegal.
You want to stop free speech? That way danger lies.

[Onelife]

The intricacies of unravelling a hard Brexit would be immense, and painful, but we will get there.....

So why do it?

... and by "there" do you mean Johnson's now discredited "sunlit uplands"?

Hi Jack.....l do sometimes wonder what planet Boris is on but talking up (sunlite uplands') what the UK can achieve outside of the EU has to better than what these two doom and gloom merchants were pedaling.


Wasnt it David Cameron who said there would be  “serried rows of white headstones” of World War 3 upon us if Brexit occurred. 

Wasn't George Osborne who predicted tax rises and spending cuts after the brexit referendum?

[Jack Staff]

Wasnt it David Cameron who said there would be  “serried rows of white headstones” of World War 3 upon us if Brexit occurred. 

I had to Google that speech, he was refering to what happened in the past, when we turn our backs on Europe.
I would say however that my opinion of Cameron was put far more eloquently that I could by Danny Dyer.

Wasn't George Osborne who predicted tax rises and spending cuts after the brexit referendum?

Aren't there a lot of Brexiters still predicting things will be better after Brexit? Liars the lot of 'em.
But there will be tax rises and spending cuts after Brexit. That IS what is GOING to happen.

[towny44]

The chequers deal is only a deal for the Conservatives to agree to.
To try and unite the party. Just like Brexit.
The deal has already failed (resignations).
Which does save time as the EU said that what they came up with last week was a non starter two years ago.

So by that simple statement Jack, you admit that there is no deal to be done and that the UK must simply leave without a deal.
The only other option would be to remain as we were, but that is no longer on the table, so is irrelevant to the discussion.
You defeat your own argument ?

The UK's idea of what is possible needs to change dramatically. There is a slim chance of a deal, but it would be a deal both of us hate.
So yes, I believe it's cliff edge catastrophe Brexit or remain, being the most likely options.
Remain may not be on the table at the moment, but this governments (in)actions means we are still on the starters.

Out of interest Jack what sort of free trade deal did the EU agree with Canada, now that we have dropped services from our free trade proposal, what we are proposing must be similar to theirs, but since we already have a free trade agmt in place we won't need 7 years to discuss it.
If this still fails to satisfy the Irish then they can always leave with us so they can keep their open border!

[Onelife]

Wasnt it David Cameron who said there would be  “serried rows of white headstones” of World War 3 upon us if Brexit occurred. 

I had to Google that speech, he was refering to what happened in the past, when we turn our backs on Europe.
I would say however that my opinion of Cameron was put far more eloquently that I could by Danny Dyer.

Wasn't George Osborne who predicted tax rises and spending cuts after the brexit referendum?

Aren't there a lot of Brexiters still predicting things will be better after Brexit? Liars the lot of 'em.
But there will be tax rises and spending cuts after Brexit. That IS what is GOING to happen.

Hi Jack....predicting what the future holds after brexit will be of our making and not that of those who tell us how we should run our country.

[Jack Staff]

Wasnt it David Cameron who said there would be  “serried rows of white headstones” of World War 3 upon us if Brexit occurred. 

I had to Google that speech, he was refering to what happened in the past, when we turn our backs on Europe.
I would say however that my opinion of Cameron was put far more eloquently that I could by Danny Dyer.

Wasn't George Osborne who predicted tax rises and spending cuts after the brexit referendum?

Aren't there a lot of Brexiters still predicting things will be better after Brexit? Liars the lot of 'em.
But there will be tax rises and spending cuts after Brexit. That IS what is GOING to happen.

Hi Jack....predicting what the future holds after brexit will be of our making and not that of those who tell us how we should run our country.

As I can not 100% accurately predict the future I will assume the status quo in that "after brexit will be of our making " and "those who tell us how we should run our country" are one and the same.
https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... pport.html

Or are you suggesting a Brexiter coup?

[Jack Staff]

Out of interest Jack what sort of free trade deal did the EU agree with Canada, now that we have dropped services from our free trade proposal, what we are proposing must be similar to theirs, but since we already have a free trade agmt in place we won't need 7 years to discuss it.
If this still fails to satisfy the Irish then they can always leave with us so they can keep their open border!

I love Brexiter land. Everything is so simple and easy there.

[towny44]

Out of interest Jack what sort of free trade deal did the EU agree with Canada, now that we have dropped services from our free trade proposal, what we are proposing must be similar to theirs, but since we already have a free trade agmt in place we won't need 7 years to discuss it.
If this still fails to satisfy the Irish then they can always leave with us so they can keep their open border!

I love Brexiter land. Everything is so simple and easy there.

But Barnier is the one who has said the UK will have to settle for a similar deal, so OK lets do it and if it f****s up the Irish then it's Barnier's fault, simples.

[barney]

You know that there is now a recognised mental illness due to Brexit, suffered by the people who still haven't come to terms with the result of the vote.
Yasmin Alabi-Brown was talking about it recently and said that she is sure she has got it.
The thinking is that all people who voted to leave have a blatant disregard for the opinions of those who wish to stay.

The leavers think that everything will be fine and the remainers like to think that the UK is going to hell in a handcart.
Of course the truth is somewhere in between.

Given the half full/half empty scenario, I generally opt for half full in most circumstances. I'm pretty optimistic by nature.
My mate that I went to football with was half empty and no matter how well we were doing, he was confident that things could always get worse.

Now, here's the rub.
Jack staff falls into neither role.
Jack, you seem convinced that the glass is totally empty and only a doomsday scenario is on offer.

From a personal point of view, it really doesn't make an awful lot of difference to my life which party is in power or whether we stay or go.
I'm quite well off, after 45 + years of hard work and am financially sorted.
Probably like most of the posters on here.

But, if we allowing the destruction of our democracy by a small minority who just refuse to come to terms with the fact that they didn't get their own way on a particular issue, then we are in trouble.

[Jack Staff]

You know that there is now a recognised mental illness due to Brexit, suffered by the people who still haven't come to terms with the result of the vote.
Yasmin Alabi-Brown was talking about it recently and said that she is sure she has got it.
The thinking is that all people who voted to leave have a blatant disregard for the opinions of those who wish to stay.

The leavers think that everything will be fine and the remainers like to think that the UK is going to hell in a handcart.
Of course the truth is somewhere in between.

Given the half full/half empty scenario, I generally opt for half full in most circumstances. I'm pretty optimistic by nature.
My mate that I went to football with was half empty and no matter how well we were doing, he was confident that things could always get worse.

Now, here's the rub.
Jack staff falls into neither role.
Jack, you seem convinced that the glass is totally empty and only a doomsday scenario is on offer.

From a personal point of view, it really doesn't make an awful lot of difference to my life which party is in power or whether we stay or go.
I'm quite well off, after 45 + years of hard work and am financially sorted.
Probably like most of the posters on here.

But, if we allowing the destruction of our democracy by a small minority who just refuse to come to terms with the fact that they didn't get their own way on a particular issue, then we are in trouble.

It is up to you, as a Brexiter, to convince me that it is a good idea.
That is the job (and always has been) of the victor. To bring the rest of the population along with them. To re-unite the country.
All you have to do is tell me how we, the citizens of the UK, will be better off?

You say that you are financially sorted, good for you. There are plenty that aren't and when their jobs go, that is when we are all in trouble.

[towny44]

Jack, no one can tell you exactly how leaving thel EU will affect you because no one knows, leavers hope that all will be well as we shake off the EU shackles but we can't be certain.
If you want certainty I suggest you try N Korea, you will then be certain that things are bad and likely to get worse, but if you want to stay here you have to be prepared to expect the unexpected, and like me believe that life outside the EU, even if we are poorer, will be far, far, far better than being in it.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, no one can tell you exactly how leaving thel EU will affect you because no one knows, leavers hope that all will be well as we shake off the EU shackles but we can't be certain.
If you want certainty I suggest you try N Korea, you will then be certain that things are bad and likely to get worse, but if you want to stay here you have to be prepared to expect the unexpected, and like me believe that life outside the EU, even if we are poorer, will be far, far, far better than being in it.

Brexit is a cult.

[barney]

All I know for sure is that after 45 years of membership only about 30% of folk thought that it was worth staying in.

[Jack Staff]

All I know for sure is that after 45 years of membership only about 30% of folk thought that it was worth staying in.

Only 26.7% of folk voted out.