Brexit

[gfwgfw]

What a mucking fuddle . . . . thou John Major made lots of sense on the media this very morning

Yes methinks a second bite of the cherry should be effected post haste now the picture is so much clearer to us the Johnny public

[Onelife]

Just for the record Jack, I was not convinced to vote Leave by the Vote Leave campaign, irrespective of whether it was illegal or misleading.

My inclination was towards Leave even before the referendum was called, because, among other things, of the way the EU was riding roughshod over national governments, and the will of the UK people, and their mantra about ever closer union. More of the same and worse. Because of the crass rulings of the European courts. Because of their inefficiency. Where in any sane society would you relocate parliament for one week per month at huge cost in time and money to appease one member country? Where in a "Common Market" would you sacrifice one country's industry to benefit another's? There is nothing Common about the market, and nothing Union about the EU, It's all about those thirsty for power and domination over their neighbours. Including second rate Sir Humphreys like Juncker and Tusk.

I don't know about you Jack but I travel in Europe and have seen the damage the EU and the Euro have done, making the poorer countries poorer and the richer countries richer, quite the opposite of the founding principles of the EU. Creating mass unemployment, especially for young people. You bang on, speculatively, about the impact of Brexit on our grandchildren. I've seen the evidence right now of the impact of the EU on children and grandchildren in other countries. We have a flow of EU migrants to the UK, not because it's so wonderful here but because conditions are dire in their



My heart said I wanted nothing more to do with that circus.

Despite all that, I really wanted to be persuaded to vote Remain.

But I did not do so because of Call Me Dave's pathetic negotiation with the EU, their attitude to him and the clear concerns of many of our people, his decision to use public resources to campaign for one side (my money and yours Jack - the Leave funds may have been declared illegal but they were freely given, no-one asked me if they could use my money to campaign for one side or the other) and the toxic nature of the Remain campaign. That campaign utterly failed to promote the benefits of staying, but concentrated entirely on the problems of leaving - on most of which proved to be completely wrong or overstated. The biggest sticking point seems to be the Irish border. I don't remember that being raised in the campaign.

It was the dreadful, misconceived Remain campaign that finally convinced me to vote Leave, not anything the Leave campaign said.


Yes I am twitchy about the way negotiations are going - or at least the public reports of them. But that doesn't alter my belief that I voted the right way. In fact every utterance from the EU (as opposed to the member countries) further cements that belief. It is clear they have learned nothing form the clear demonstration of anti EU feeling here, and elsewhere too. This entire negotiation is about crushing the latter by defying the former.

Excellent post Sir Merv.

[CaroleF]

I agree, excellent post Sir!

[barney]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1KE2LJ

This important story seems to have been missed by the UK media.

So, one minute the Anti Democrats are whining that there are no plans for a No deal, and now they are complaining that there is.
When this is all over, they really need to take a long hard look at themselves.
They should be shamed on the anti UK attitude that they have taken during this process.

Can anyone imagine how different it could have been if all were singing from the same song sheet as a united country.
Whether you voted leave or remain is irrelevant after the event.
One side won, the other lost but all should get behind getting the very best for our country.

Let's pretend that Remain had won 52%/48%
Well, that would be that.
The people have spoken.
Get on with life.
You've had your chance and you lost.

Sure there would continue to be a couple of splinter groups sniping from the sidelines with no power and little influence.
That's normal in politics.
But this concerted effort by elected officials to try and undermine the democratic vote at every turn , purely because they didn't agree with it, has shamed our politics for many years to come.

I'd expect the lowest turn out ever for the next General election, and that opens the door to extreme parties.


It's unthinkable that the National Front could ever be the second largest party in the UK
Well, that's waht has happened in France.
The AFD, far right are now the third largest party in Germany and gaining traction.
Far right actually control Italy.
Only Spain have bucked the trend with a recent minority socialist government that can't last long.

So, when our EU loving friends try to pretend that all is well on the continent and it would be madness to break free, do a little reading and research.
The truth may surprise you.

[oldbluefox]

Apart from the cash they get and somewhere to export their goods do we honestly believe they are really bothered about the UK? Judging by the attitude of their negotiating team I don't think so.
I saw this which, whilst it amused me I also felt a raw sense of irony....................

22554998_1426838497414387_6006923112118215512_n.jpg

Some people will believe anything.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35962999

Like Call me Dave's Remain leaflet which we all paid for and Project Fear's warnings?

[Gill W]

The way things are going, it was Project Mildly Pessimistic

[barney]

You're not wrong there gill.
So far, the PM has handled it all just about as badly as it could be done.

I think that saying she has been useless is being kind.

Anything short of remaining in the Custom Union and possibly the Single Market is acceptable to the EU team.
It is either that, or fully out.
They have said that from day one and have stuck to it.

As the UK voters voted by majority to leave the EU, then only a full removal of the UK is on the table.
That is exactly why preparations should have been started the day after article 50 was triggered.
Most of that would have been completed by now, ready for March 2019.

We should bare in mind that the EU is in an impossible position.
As an ex-member, they cannot make it too easy for the UK, despite the damage that will occur in the EU27.
If it was a breeze and the UK did very well out of it, other EU countries would be lining up for the same.
Probably Italy first, but there is a fair bit of anti EU sentiment in many member states.

They can happily negotiate free trade agreements with genuine third countries like Japan, Canada & South Korea because there is no history there.
It is just a trade deal. There is no politics involved.

The UK's case is very different and they almost need to make an example of us, to deter others from trying.
Now, you may ask why something that started as a genuine trade block has become so sinister, but that's for another debate.

So, in my humble opinion, the UK & EU have no option but to unjoin with no formal agreements in place.
Then, when we have left and are a genuine third country, we can discuss trade without the hinderance of the so called 'four freedoms'

With regards to the land border in Ireland, the UK declares that they will not put up any additional infastructure
If the EU/Irish insist on it, then that's up to them.
If the IRA decide that is a reason to recommence violence then that will be dealt with as a serious issue by the security services.
Again, that is up to them.
You never know and with a bit of luck, there could be a referendum in Nothern Ireland about joining the Republic.
That would be a win for us, but I'm not sure that the Irish could afford to pick up the bill for that one.
Maybe they could get EU funding for it.
In the longer run, maybe Scotland and Wales could also vote for full independence. That would be a massive financial boost for England.
Maybe the UK has run it's course.
Maybe it really is time for a fundamental change in how things are done.
Maybe, instead of heavily subsidising dependent countries like Scotland Wales & NI, England could put a lot more money into the North.

One thing is for sure.
The times, they are a changing.

Better all get used to it.

[screwy]

Well said Barney.

[Stephen]

Sensible talk like that barney could get you elected

.....Queue Jack

[towny44]

What you say makes a lot of sense Barney, but I suspect he has been emboldened by the attitude of the civil servants in the DEXEU dept, who clearly don't want to leave the EU at all. Sooner or later TM has got to give him our final ultimatum, negotiate a sensible trade deal and exit, or we leave on WTO terms.

[barney]

You are totally correct there John. My sister in law was seconded from DWP to DexEU and is a very staunch remainer.

[oldbluefox]

Well spoken Merv and Barney.

[Ray Scully]

You are totally correct there John. My sister in law was seconded from DWP to DexEU and is a very staunch remainer.

Bright Lass !!

[david63]

Must be a "slow news day"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -dz3359lrf

[barney]

You are totally correct there John. My sister in law was seconded from DWP to DexEU and is a very staunch remainer.

Bright Lass !!

She is that Ray.
She started her career working on the counter of the Gravesend jobcentre and has worked her way slowly up to government advisor.
She has worked for so many Ministers that she has lost count.
Her favourite was some labour guy who got caught with his fingers in the till in the expenses scandal.
Her least favourite was Priti Patel.
Interesting in their house, as she has always preferred the status quo where the EU is concerned, and my brother, who is a lawyer, is clearly a leaver.
She is not a lover of the EU, she just doesn't think it's worth the aggro.

Did anyone see the 'opinion poll' on sky news this morning?
Talk about a loaded question.
48% of those questioned would like to see the UK remain in the EU, which is a clear majority.

[david63]

48% of those questioned would like to see the UK remain in the EU, which is a clear majority.

Of course it is if you have been to the Diane Abbott school of mathematics

[oldbluefox]

"she just doesn't think it's worth the aggro"
Probably the case for a good many who voted Remain, especially politicians and senior civil servants...... and those who are fortunate enough to be making a good living out of it.

[barney]

"she just doesn't think it's worth the aggro"
Probably the case for a good many who voted Remain, especially politicians and senior civil servants...... and those who are fortunate enough to be making a good living out of it.

You're not wrong there Foxy.
She's on about 80K a year.
Part of the reason that she doesn't like the secondment is that she was seconded on to the Olympic organising group, and when she returned to the DWP, she found that someone else had moved into her shoes in her absence.
She had to start building her empire all over again.
She's only five years away from drawing her pension at 60, so I expect she's happy to keep her head down, as we all were.

[barney]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-services

I went and closed both of my Santander accounts today, just to be on the safe side.

[Ray Scully]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-services

I went and closed both of my Santander accounts today, just to be on the safe side.

Barney, nothing less than I would expect from a gent of your perspicacity.

[Ray Scully]

Brexiteer friends, please can you explain the content of Dr Fox's piece in the Times to today. It seems a tad inconsistent with him previously stating a Brexit trade deal would be “the easiest in human history”,

[barney]

What he should have said was that it SHOULD have been easy. That was before TM got involved. He said that before Dave decided to do a runner. Had the Tories elected PM committed to leaving it would have been sorted by now. I'm ok with WTO if necessary. If they can't/won't deal that's fine by me. After we've left they can start talking seriously. In the meantime life goes on.

[Golden Princess]

A bad workman always blames his tools

[Jack Staff]

Theresa May became PM 13 July 2016.
Over a year later disgraced former Defence Minister Dr. Liam Fox said on 20 Jul 2017 "one of the easiest in human history"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-406678 ... an-history

[Onelife]

At the end of the day multinational companies rule the world and if anyone thinks that trading will be adversely affected due to us leaving the EU then l think they are misguided. These greedy often unscrupulous companies turn the wheels of world economy and in doing so answer to no one but themselves.....Their influence can move mountains so a few little barriers imposed by EU bureaucrats (tarifs, etc) won't be an obstacle that can't be got around.

Just in case l am wrong l'll be stocking up the freezers because the one thing me and multinational companies have in common is that we're both greedy and look after ourselves.