Brexit

[Gill W]

Seriously, what do the Anti Democrats think that DexEU has been doing since article 50 was sent to Brussels.

What is an Anti Democrat?

[Ray Scully]

I recognise your concerns Gill, but that is not Brexit's fault, that is the fault of Teresa May.
She has fudged and bodged since day one.
She is 100% responsible.

Methinks that a possible tad of blame could lie with Messrs BOJO, Gove Davis and co who sold us a promise that was not fulfillable. That no doubt is the reason that Davis and Johnson have walked. As for Mrs May, I have tremendous respect for her resilience trapped as she is between the opposing factions. Any lesser person would have walked away months ago.
We are all in a very dangerous place with the risk of crashing out of the EU and then a Corbyn led government.

[oldbluefox]

It is Corbyn who is keeping TM in power. Does anybody reall want that front bench of Labour's to hold the reins of power?

[Gill W]

It is Corbyn who is keeping TM in power. Does anybody reall want that front bench of Labour's to hold the reins of power?

If there was an election today, I couldn't bring myself to vote either Labour or Conservative.

[Ray Scully]

It is Corbyn who is keeping TM in power. Does anybody reall want that front bench of Labour's to hold the reins of power?

I want a Corbyn led government as much as I want to leave the EU but sadly that is where it is heading.

[barney]

Seriously, what do the Anti Democrats think that DexEU has been doing since article 50 was sent to Brussels.

What is an Anti Democrat?

An Anti Democrat are those who simply refuse to accept that the vote was to leave the EU and have done their upmost to make it as difficult as possible for that to happen.
I'm not including our friend Jack in that, as he has no influence whatsoever on any outcome, and is merely a 'rent an opinion' the same as the rest of us.
But you know exactly who I'm talking about.
Soubrey
Woolaston
Grieve
Clark
plus a host of Labour MPs and the single Green MP who represents virtually nobody.
These have all been conspiring since day one to try and over throw the result.
Add into that mix, George Soros, Gina Miller, Tony Blair, George Osborn, Peter Mandelson, John Major and a few others and you get the drift.

If you voted for the losing side and don't like the result, then fair enough, be miserable and have a little whinge about Cambridge, The Russians, Facebook and anyone else you would like to blame for not 'getting it right'
But … to actively and publicly go to Brussels to speak directly to Barnier, to let him know how dissatisfied they are with the result is borderline disgusting.
That is why I'm happy to call them Quislings.


They are clearly Anti Democrats because they refuse to acknowledge the legitimate democratic result.
I'm not saying never have another vote.
Quite the opposite.
If they can muster the numbers to rejoin the EU at some time in the future, then good luck to them.
That's how it should work.
It is simply un-democratic to try and swart a vote because you didn't like the result or the possible outcome.

What's next?
Just say that the Tories win in 2020.
Would it be right for millions of Labour supporters to take to the streets and actively try to sabotage the legitimate Government.
Of course it wouldn't, because we respect democracy.
Some you win, some you lose.

[Gill W]

Methinks that a possible tad of blame could lie with Messrs BOJO, Gove Davis and co who sold us a promise that was not fulfillable. That no doubt is the reason that Davis and Johnson have walked. As for Mrs May, I have tremendous respect for her resilience trapped as she is between the opposing factions. Any lesser person would have walked away months ago.
We are all in a very dangerous place with the risk of crashing out of the EU and then a Corbyn led government.

Yes, if we are talking blame, Johnson and Co, should shoulder their share. The were selling a Brexit pipe dream. Sadly, it's turned into a nightmare. I don't think May is up to the job (none of them are), and feel she's clinging on for dear life. A no deal will surely see her topple, or even the wrong deal. Then God knows what'll happen. Whichever way you look at it we are well and truly b*ggered (pardon my French)

[barney]

I recognise your concerns Gill, but that is not Brexit's fault, that is the fault of Teresa May.
She has fudged and bodged since day one.
She is 100% responsible.

Methinks that a possible tad of blame could lie with Messrs BOJO, Gove Davis and co who sold us a promise that was not fulfillable. That no doubt is the reason that Davis and Johnson have walked. As for Mrs May, I have tremendous respect for her resilience trapped as she is between the opposing factions. Any lesser person would have walked away months ago.
We are all in a very dangerous place with the risk of crashing out of the EU and then a Corbyn led government.

I think that you may be missing the point Ray.
They clearly walked because of May's constant fudging of the issue.
I think she will go down as one of the worst ever, just on this issue.
The reason that she allowed herslf to get trapped between opposing factions is because she has shown no leadership.
Would it have been too much to ask that she formulated a plan at the beginning and stuck to it.

FYI, we cannot crash out of the EU, because we are leaving under the terms of article 50.
Article 50 was written specifically for countries to leave. It was actually drafted by a British guy.
We will revert to a third country and continue life as the other 160 countries in the world who are not in the EU.

By crashing out, you clearly mean that if no trade agreement is reached before we go.
If that should be the case, then we simply trade with the 27 EU countries on normal WTO terms. We are WTO members after all.
That means tariffs on goods. But really, so what?
There is a £70 billion trade imbalance, so it would be in the UK's favour financially.
I'm hoping that there is a reasonable deal done, before we leave, but it's not the end of the world if there isn't.

Things will be different because the majority of people voted for change.
How different? Time will tell.

[Gill W]

Seriously, what do the Anti Democrats think that DexEU has been doing since article 50 was sent to Brussels.

What is an Anti Democrat?

An Anti Democrat are those who simply refuse to accept that the vote was to leave the EU and have done their upmost to make it as difficult as possible for that to happen.
I'm not including our friend Jack in that, as he has no influence whatsoever on any outcome, and is merely a 'rent an opinion' the same as the rest of us.
But you know exactly who I'm talking about.
Soubrey
Woolaston
Grieve
Clark
plus a host of Labour MPs and the single Green MP who represents virtually nobody.
These have all been conspiring since day one to try and over throw the result.
Add into that mix, George Soros, Gina Miller, Tony Blair, George Osborn, Peter Mandelson, John Major and a few others and you get the drift.

If you voted for the losing side and don't like the result, then fair enough, be miserable and have a little whinge about Cambridge, The Russians, Facebook and anyone else you would like to blame for not 'getting it right'
But … to actively and publicly go to Brussels to speak directly to Barnier, to let him know how dissatisfied they are with the result is borderline disgusting.
That is why I'm happy to call them Quislings.


They are clearly Anti Democrats because they refuse to acknowledge the legitimate democratic result.
I'm not saying never have another vote.
Quite the opposite.
If they can muster the numbers to rejoin the EU at some time in the future, then good luck to them.
That's how it should work.
It is simply un-democratic to try and swart a vote because you didn't like the result or the possible outcome.

What's next?
Just say that the Tories win in 2020.
Would it be right for millions of Labour supporters to take to the streets and actively try to sabotage the legitimate Government.
Of course it wouldn't, because we respect democracy.
Some you win, some you lose.

Any election is a snapshot of opinion at that moment in time.

As you know the referendum was very close.

In politics, every view should be heard - that's why we have an opposition (although they are a chocolate teapot at the moment.)

Therefore, why is it so wrong for these high profile people you mention to speak out for the people who believe it's in the best interests of our country to Remain?

Also, people change they minds all the time. Polls suggest that, seeing the carnage currently unfolding, there'd be a majority to remain.

As so much more information is now available about what Brexit means, why should people not question the decision to leave?

I don't support sabotaging the government - but I do support our right to speak freely and question their decsions.

[barney]

Absolutely Gill, and no one is disputing anyone's rights to speak freely and question it.
But these people have taken it a step further.

It's a shame that the amount of effort put in to try and swart Brexit was not channelled into trying to get our country the best possible outcome.
I fully respect anyone who wishes to remain in the EU. They have every right to lobby to re-join in the future.

The real problem at the moment is that we have a Remain PM trying to leave, and a Leave opposition leader trying to sit on the fence.

When we have a GE and 'our side' loses, we accept it and try harder next time for our side to win.
This is exactly the same.
The mandate from the majority was to leave the EU. That is what must happen otherwise what's the point of ever having another vote, on anything.

[Onelife]

Every time I look at this thread, the more I want to bang my head on my desk ….

Hi Gill,

I respect and understand your concerns but we shouldn't get bogged down with the thought that everything stops come March 29th......We will still continue to trade on the same terms as before and probably do so after the transition period December 2020.....what will happen if the EU dictators get their way is that we won't have a say or a vote in decisions making after March 29th......that's no real hardship as they took no notice of anything we said anyway.

For what it's worth l still have faith in Theresa May to see us through what is a quogmire of complex issues....If all of her desenters haven't got the guts to remove her then they must think there is none better to fill her lovely shoes.

Regards keith

ps … Is that what you wanted-ish ?

[Onelife]

Oops....This bl**dy tablet is useless.......where are the mods when you need one?

See above

[Manoverboard]

TM has tried extremely hard to reach a compromise deal, one that would represent everybody.

In spite of the adverse comments towards her there is NO way that the Boss Lady could handle this lot on her own, anybody who has held senior positions during their lifetime would surely appreciate that.

At the end of the day ' everybody ' should have pulled together to achieve the best possible result for UK PLC. That didn't happen and the scheming Remainers have attempted to sabotage the will of the Nation …. in their own interests.

[Jack Staff]

TM has tried extremely hard to reach a compromise deal, one that would represent everybody.

In spite of the adverse comments towards her there is NO way that the Boss Lady could handle this lot on her own, anybody who has held senior positions during their lifetime would surely appreciate that.

At the end of the day ' everybody ' should have pulled together to achieve the best possible result for UK PLC. That didn't happen and the scheming Remainers have attempted to sabotage the will of the Nation …. in their own interests.

You can convince people to vote to abolish gravity, but they will be very pi55ed off with you when they hit the ground.

[Professor Brian Cox]

[Gill W]

Absolutely Gill, and no one is disputing anyone's rights to speak freely and question it.
But these people have taken it a step further.

It's a shame that the amount of effort put in to try and swart Brexit was not channelled into trying to get our country the best possible outcome.
I fully respect anyone who wishes to remain in the EU. They have every right to lobby to re-join in the future.

The real problem at the moment is that we have a Remain PM trying to leave, and a Leave opposition leader trying to sit on the fence.

When we have a GE and 'our side' loses, we accept it and try harder next time for our side to win.
This is exactly the same.
The mandate from the majority was to leave the EU. That is what must happen otherwise what's the point of ever having another vote, on anything.

An Analogy

Fred, Dave and Pete are out driving in a car
Fred, the driver, says I'm going to drive the car over this cliff edge
Dave says I agree, lets drive over the cliff edge.
Pete says no, this will cause us great damage.
Fred and Dave say we are the majority, we must drive over the cliff edge
Fred accelerates towards the cliff.
Dave cries out, no, I've changed my mind, this is madness, stop the car.
Fred says no, I can't stop, we voted, and the majority voted to drive over the cliff. We can't change our mind now.
Car goes over cliff
END

[Onelife]

Oops....This bl**dy tablet is useless.......where are the mods when you need one?

See above

Thank Mob ........now can you make me up to Deputy Captain?

[Gill W]

TM has tried extremely hard to reach a compromise deal, one that would represent everybody.

In spite of the adverse comments towards her there is NO way that the Boss Lady could handle this lot on her own, anybody who has held senior positions during their lifetime would surely appreciate that.

At the end of the day ' everybody ' should have pulled together to achieve the best possible result for UK PLC. That didn't happen and the scheming Remainers have attempted to sabotage the will of the Nation …. in their own interests.

Everybody wants the best for the country.
Remainers believe that the best for the country is to remain in the EU.
I hope you are not including members of of this forum as 'scheming' or as saboteurs, as I wouldn't be very impressed with that at all. I've avoided all adjectives to describe Brexiters, as I want to keep this civil.

[Onelife]

TM has tried extremely hard to reach a compromise deal, one that would represent everybody.

In spite of the adverse comments towards her there is NO way that the Boss Lady could handle this lot on her own, anybody who has held senior positions during their lifetime would surely appreciate that.

At the end of the day ' everybody ' should have pulled together to achieve the best possible result for UK PLC. That didn't happen and the scheming Remainers have attempted to sabotage the will of the Nation …. in their own interests.

My thoughts exactly.........well its what l wanted..ish to say

[Gill W]

Every time I look at this thread, the more I want to bang my head on my desk ….

Hi Gill,

I respect and understand your concerns but we shouldn't get bogged down with the thought that everything stops come March 29th......We will still continue to trade on the same terms as before and probably do so after the transition period December 2020.....what will happen if the EU dictators get their way is that we won't have a say or a vote in decisions making after March 29th......that's no real hardship as they took no notice of anything we said anyway.

For what it's worth l still have faith in Theresa May to see us through what is a quogmire of complex issues....If all of her desenters haven't got the guts to remove her then they must think there is none better to fill her lovely shoes.

Regards keith

ps … Is that what you wanted-ish ?

LOL, what I want is to stay!

But, as that isn't going to happen, I want us to leave with a deal.

I'm not sure thatthe transition period is set in stone yet? Isn't it subject to sorting out what's going to happen to the Northern Ireland border? which still hasn't been sorted.

Plus, if there's no deal, would there still be a transition.?

I don't think the transition is a done deal yet - which goes back to my concern about whether everything will be in place on 29th March to allow us to continue as normal. Tick tock, tick tock, time's getting shorter day by day

[Onelife]

TM has tried extremely hard to reach a compromise deal, one that would represent everybody.

In spite of the adverse comments towards her there is NO way that the Boss Lady could handle this lot on her own, anybody who has held senior positions during their lifetime would surely appreciate that.

At the end of the day ' everybody ' should have pulled together to achieve the best possible result for UK PLC. That didn't happen and the scheming Remainers have attempted to sabotage the will of the Nation …. in their own interests.

Everybody wants the best for the country.
Remainers believe that the best for the country is to remain in the EU.
I hope you are not including members of of this forum as 'scheming' or as saboteurs, as I wouldn't be very impressed with that at all. I've avoided all adjectives to describe Brexiters, as I want to keep this civil

Gill wrote...

The mandate from the majority was to leave the EU. That is what must happen otherwise what's the point of ever having another vote, on anything.

..agree Gill....do you think the actions of Remainers have helped or hinderd the majority?

[Ray Scully]

Nothing anti democratic in realising you have been 'sold a pup' Any government can be kicked out after 5 years, a disastrous leaving the EU will affect generations.

[Jack Staff]

Nothing anti democratic in realising you have been 'sold a pup' Any government can be kicked out after 5 years, a disastrous leaving the EU will affect generations.

I beg to differ. A disastrous Brexit will ruin the country. But it will mean the Brextremists will be exposed for the charlatans that they are.
Voted out and we rejoin within a year or two.

Of course it does mean your Real-Smugs will make a mint as we leave and then another one as our economy recovers when we get back in the fold.

.... but just whose money is it that they will be 'making' anyway????

[Gill W]

In answer to Onelife’s post - I never said that we should leave because the majority voted Leave and that was what must happen as otherwise what was the point on voting on anything every again - that was Barney.

In answer to your question - you speak as if ‘Remainers’ are a small group, and the ‘majority’ is massive. We know that is not true.

As for the ‘actions’ of Remainers. If they are outside of the Government, all they can do is talk. I don’t see how talk outside of the government can help or hinder any deal.

An agreement was reached at Chequers. It lasted about 3 days before Brexiters started resigning. Perhaps it’s the actions of Brexiters in the Government that are hindering the process?

[Gill W]

Nothing anti democratic in realising you have been 'sold a pup' Any government can be kicked out after 5 years, a disastrous leaving the EU will affect generations.

I beg to differ. A disastrous Brexit will ruin the country. But it will mean the Brextremists will be exposed for the charlatans that they are.
Voted out and we rejoin within a year or two.

Of course it does mean your Real-Smugs will make a mint as we leave and then another one as our economy recovers when we get back in the fold.

.... but just whose money is it that they will be 'making' anyway????

Regarding going back in - I’m sure I read ages ago, that new countries to the EU have to commit to converting to the Euro. So I think any return would be subject to us accepting the Euro. I suspect even many Remainers would baulk at that.

[towny44]

Nothing anti democratic in realising you have been 'sold a pup' Any government can be kicked out after 5 years, a disastrous leaving the EU will affect generations.

I beg to differ. A disastrous Brexit will ruin the country. But it will mean the Brextremists will be exposed for the charlatans that they are.
Voted out and we rejoin within a year or two.

Of course it does mean your Real-Smugs will make a mint as we leave and then another one as our economy recovers when we get back in the fold.

.... but just whose money is it that they will be 'making' anyway????

Jack, you keep asking us to provide proof that Brexit will be beneficial, and yet you offer up a very similar unprovable comment by saying that a disastrous brexit will ruin the country, that is only your expectation mine would be totally at variance to yours.