Brexit

[Gill W]

The interesting thing in the Guardian report is the "swing" in Labour voters.

I have thought for a long time now that the "Labour" vote influenced the Referendum in that many traditional Labour voters saw Remain as a Conservative policy and being Labour had to vote the opposite way. This was not helped by Jeremy Corben appearing to be somewhat apathetic about the whole thing. Had JC gone round the country standing shoulder to shoulder with DC I think that the outcome would have been significantly different.

I agree. I think a lot of people thought their Leave vote was a vote against the government or against the establishment. Corbyn was only ever luke warm about Remain. Not surprising really as he’s turned out to be a hard core Brexiter.

[Gill W]

Thank goodness you can always rely on The Guardian to give you a straw to clutch at.

Thank goodness you can always blame the messenger to give you a straw to clutch at.

It’s a shame there isn’t a ‘like’ button on this forum. Have a thumbs up instead

[Jack Staff]

Hi Jack,


The way l see things (bearing in mind that I'm a little short sighted) is that the whole issue of the boarder between n and s is in fact being blown out of all proportion.....There never will be a hard boarder, the reason being....who the hell is going to enforce it? Who cares if the EU try to impose regulations? at the end of the day we don't  want a hard boarder neither dose North n South Ireland...who is going to make them do it?

I admire the simplicity of Brexity thinking. Shame it doesn't stand up to reality.
There has to be two borders. Theirs and ours.

They will do what they have to do, following our decision to leave.

We HAVE to have a border to be able to be able to trade under the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.
But, if we have a border we...
Break the Good Friday Agreement - to which we are legally bound.
Our sovereign Parliament has made it illegal to place a border there.

Or we just stay in the Customs Union.

Sooner or latter the EU will realise that they can't use bully tactics over things they have no control over...We want to control our own destiny, with them or without them, and we will.

Please explain how they are bullying us? They are just enforcing the law or agreements we have made. All perfectly clear before June 2016, but was then described as 'project fear' by the Brexity press.

[towny44]

Hi Jack,


The way l see things (bearing in mind that I'm a little short sighted) is that the whole issue of the boarder between n and s is in fact being blown out of all proportion.....There never will be a hard boarder, the reason being....who the hell is going to enforce it? Who cares if the EU try to impose regulations? at the end of the day we don't  want a hard boarder neither dose North n South Ireland...who is going to make them do it?

I admire the simplicity of Brexity thinking. Shame it doesn't stand up to reality.
There has to be two borders. Theirs and ours.

They will do what they have to do, following our decision to leave.

We HAVE to have a border to be able to be able to trade under the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.
But, if we have a border we...
Break the Good Friday Agreement - to which we are legally bound.
Our sovereign Parliament has made it illegal to place a border there.

Or we just stay in the Customs Union.

Sooner or latter the EU will realise that they can't use bully tactics over things they have no control over...We want to control our own destiny, with them or without them, and we will.

Please explain how they are bullying us? They are just enforcing the law or agreements we have made. All perfectly clear before June 2016, but was then described as 'project fear' by the Brexity press.

Jack, I know you would like to ensure that things remain as they are, which is why you constantly keep quoting EU rules as though they were the holy grail, but we voted to leave which changes everything, so please accept the new situation and learn to live in the real world, not the remainers dubious worship of their EU nirvana.

[oldbluefox]

What good news? Please post some. (it doesn't count if its anything from the Mail or Express)
[/quote]

I see the new editor of the Daily Mail is going to change the paper’s stance to ‘let’s have the least damaging possible’ Brexit.

You know somethings up when even the Mail admits that ANY Brexit will be damaging!

Does that count by your own reckoning?

[Jack Staff]

Jack, I know you would like to ensure that things remain as they are, which is why you constantly keep quoting EU rules as though they were the holy grail, but we voted to leave which changes everything, so please accept the new situation and learn to live in the real world, not the remainers dubious worship of their EU nirvana.

International law.
On the GFA the US is also a signatory.

If you are saying any agreements we made with the EU are no longer applicable, because we just decided, then any countries that we wish to have a (trade) agreement with in future are rightly going to think we are untrustworthy.

[oldbluefox]

If you are saying any agreements we made with the EU are no longer applicable, because we just decided, then any countries that we wish to have a (trade) agreement with in future are rightly going to think we are untrustworthy.

I sometimes wonder where you get these ideas Jack. How do you know what other countries will be thinking bearing in mind we have voted to exit the EU, with or without an agreement? Isn't that what the Brexit talks are looking to resolve?

[Jack Staff]

If you are saying any agreements we made with the EU are no longer applicable, because we just decided, then any countries that we wish to have a (trade) agreement with in future are rightly going to think we are untrustworthy.

I sometimes wonder where you get these ideas Jack. How do you know what other countries will be thinking bearing in mind we have voted to exit the EU, with or without an agreement? Isn't that what the Brexit talks are looking to resolve?

From John. He said " but we voted to leave which changes everything" as though we can now do anything we want to try and get to the fantasy 'sunlit uplands'. I'm just pointing out it takes two to trade deal.

[oldbluefox]

Of course it does,I agree on that, but if a trade deal with the EU cannot be struck I don't see why UK could be considered untrustworthy in the eyes of other countries.
I am getting the impression from the Remain camp that UK are totally incapable of doing anything without relying on the apron strings of the EU. I believe we are much more capable than that and continuing to subordinate ourselves to the whims and wishes of Barnier & Co does us no favours at all. Naturally many politicians and civil servants who are hoping to extend their careers with a lucrative job inside the EU will oppose Brexit, as will the likes of Mandelson who will be picking up a tidy pension and many civil servants who have been able to delegate responsibility to the EU but unless you live in the more affluent areas there is nothing to commend the EU to the general populace.

[Jack Staff]

Of course it does,I agree on that, but if a trade deal with the EU cannot be struck I don't see why UK could be considered untrustworthy in the eyes of other countries.
I am getting the impression from the Remain camp that UK are totally incapable of doing anything without relying on the apron strings of the EU. I believe we are much more capable than that and continuing to subordinate ourselves to the whims and wishes of Barnier & Co does us no favours at all. Naturally many politicians and civil servants who are hoping to extend their careers with a lucrative job inside the EU will oppose Brexit, as will the likes of Mandelson who will be picking up a tidy pension and many civil servants who have been able to delegate responsibility to the EU but unless you live in the more affluent areas there is nothing to commend the EU to the general populace.

Because John said "but we voted to leave which changes everything", that we can just rip up agreements on a whim (I assume that's what he meant). Hence other countries, when we are not tied to the "apron strings of the EU" will think twice.

We did not have any trade negotiators before Brexit, as we did not need them. Who is paying their wages now???

You Obviously did not read that Gwardian piece. It is mainly Labour constituencies that have swapped to Remain.

[Onelife]

Hi Jack,


The way l see things (bearing in mind that I'm a little short sighted) is that the whole issue of the boarder between n and s is in fact being blown out of all proportion.....There never will be a hard boarder, the reason being....who the hell is going to enforce it? Who cares if the EU try to impose regulations? at the end of the day we don't  want a hard boarder neither dose North n South Ireland...who is going to make them do it?

I admire the simplicity of Brexity thinking. Shame it doesn't stand up to reality.
There has to be two borders. Theirs and ours.

They will do what they have to do, following our decision to leave.

We HAVE to have a border to be able to be able to trade under the unelected bureaucrats of the WTO.
But, if we have a border we...
Break the Good Friday Agreement - to which we are legally bound.
Our sovereign Parliament has made it illegal to place a border there.

Or we just stay in the Customs Union.

Sooner or latter the EU will realise that they can't use bully tactics over things they have no control over...We want to control our own destiny, with them or without them, and we will.

Please explain how they are bullying us? They are just enforcing the law or agreements we have made. All perfectly clear before June 2016, but was then described as 'project fear' by the Brexity press.

There are in fact three boarders regarding Ireland, theirs, ours and that of the EU....If Ireland as a whole wish to stay within the EU and in doing so wish to break away from the rest of the UK then there'll be no issue with their boarders, apart from their "massive export market to the UK" which would need to be negotiated...as an aside, l hope they honour their referendum better than what the remainers have done this side of the water.

Of course I wouldn't like to see this happen but at the end of the day stark choices are going to have to made over the coming months if solutions can't be found.

As for bulling us.....The tactics of the EU have been to back us into a corner with the sole intention of trying to soften us up.....that is what l call bullying!!.

It's only been the last month or so that the EU have entered into any meaningful negotiations.....and you wonder why things haven't  gone smoothly?

The world is a changing Jack...just make sure you stock up that freezer... we could have a few harsh years ahead of us. However, rest assured the  'sunlit uplands' are there Jack....we'll just have to climb a few mountains before we get there.

[Jack Staff]

There are in fact three boarders regarding Ireland, theirs, ours and that of the EU....

Ireland is the EU is Ireland. There is only one there, just like the EU border at Heathrow.

If Ireland as a whole wish to stay within the EU and in doing so wish to break away from the rest of the UK then there'll be no issue with their boarders, apart from their "massive export market to the UK" which would need to be negotiated...as an aside, l hope they honour their referendum better than what the remainers have done this side of the water.

So do I, they voted to remain.
Leave 44.2% Remain 55.8%.

Of course I wouldn't like to see this happen but at the end of the day stark choices are going to have to made over the coming months if solutions can't be found.

As for bulling us.....The tactics of the EU have been to back us into a corner with the sole intention of trying to soften us up.....that is what l call bullying!!.

Any examples? All I've seen is our PM being bullied by her own party.

It's only been the last month or so that the EU have entered into any meaningful negotiations.....and you wonder why things haven't  gone smoothly?

It's only in the last month that we have had a (unworkable) plan for the EU to react to.

The world is a changing Jack...just make sure you stock up that freezer... we could have a few harsh years ahead of us. However, rest assured the  'sunlit uplands' are there Jack....we'll just have to climb a few mountains before we get there.

Jacob Rees-Mogg says fifty years. My freezer isn't that big and anyway, I will be dead before then. So I will never see any of the Brexity benefits even if they weren't a fantasy.

[Gill W]

What good news? Please post some. (it doesn't count if its anything from the Mail or Express)

I see the new editor of the Daily Mail is going to change the paper’s stance to ‘let’s have the least damaging possible’ Brexit.

You know somethings up when even the Mail admits that ANY Brexit will be damaging!

Does that count by your own reckoning?
[/quote]

I specifically said GOOD news.

If we’ve got to the point where even the Mail has the stance that any Brexit is damaging, then that’s the very opposite of good news.

So, yes, it does count.

[oldbluefox]

Discounting the positives from the Mail and Express but latching on to any perceived negative seems to me selective, if not contradictory.

[Onelife]

Jack

So do I, they voted to remain.
Leave 44.2% Remain 55.8%.

I was referring to a referendum should they wish to leave the uk.

As for the rest...I've got a freezer to fill

[Jack Staff]

Discounting the positives from the Mail and Express but latching on to any perceived negative seems to me selective, if not contradictory.

Which are?

Keith,
Sorry, misunderstood you. But if NI go, so will Scotland. - and I wouldn't put any money on Wales staying either. England ends up as Billy no mates.

[towny44]

Discounting the positives from the Mail and Express but latching on to any perceived negative seems to me selective, if not contradictory.

Which are?

Keith,
Sorry, misunderstood you. But if NI go, so will Scotland. - and I wouldn't put any money on Wales staying either. England ends up as Billy no mates.

Whoopee, they have been millstones round our necks for far too long. We will no longer have to twist businessmen's arms to get them to relocate to these outposts, and they will no longer receive disproportionate subsidies from Westminster. I cannot see any downside at all in that Jack.

[Gill W]

Discounting the positives from the Mail and Express but latching on to any perceived negative seems to me selective, if not contradictory.

Does it really matter that much to you?

I can’t be bothered to get a long running conversation about something so minor, so if you think it’s contradictory, fine.

I’d rather get on with trying to understand why some Brexiters seem to think that leaving the EU with no deal is fine, and want to proceed whatever the consequences

I’ve been on Twitter too, not just on here, and I’m still completely flummoxed. I know agreement is too much to hope for, but at least on this small forum I’d hope for some sort of mutual understanding.

[Gill W]

Discounting the positives from the Mail and Express but latching on to any perceived negative seems to me selective, if not contradictory.

Which are?

Keith,
Sorry, misunderstood you. But if NI go, so will Scotland. - and I wouldn't put any money on Wales staying either. England ends up as Billy no mates.

Whoopee, they have been millstones round our necks for far too long. We will no longer have to twist businessmen's arms to get them to relocate to these outposts, and they will no longer receive disproportionate subsidies from Westminster. I cannot see any downside at all in that Jack.

I said in my last post that I’m still flummoxed by the Brexiter mindset. I think you are saying that the break up of the UK isn’t too high a price to pay for Brexit. Wow.

[towny44]

Discounting the positives from the Mail and Express but latching on to any perceived negative seems to me selective, if not contradictory.

Which are?

Keith,
Sorry, misunderstood you. But if NI go, so will Scotland. - and I wouldn't put any money on Wales staying either. England ends up as Billy no mates.

Whoopee, they have been millstones round our necks for far too long. We will no longer have to twist businessmen's arms to get them to relocate to these outposts, and they will no longer receive disproportionate subsidies from Westminster. I cannot see any downside at all in that Jack.

I said in my last post that I’m still flummoxed by the Brexiter mindset. I think you are saying that the break up of the UK isn’t too high a price to pay for Brexit. Wow.

Gill, I am saying that it would not be the financial, nor indeed the political calamity that Jack seems to imply.

[Jack Staff]

Which are?

Keith,
Sorry, misunderstood you. But if NI go, so will Scotland. - and I wouldn't put any money on Wales staying either. England ends up as Billy no mates.

Whoopee, they have been millstones round our necks for far too long. We will no longer have to twist businessmen's arms to get them to relocate to these outposts, and they will no longer receive disproportionate subsidies from Westminster. I cannot see any downside at all in that Jack.

I said in my last post that I’m still flummoxed by the Brexiter mindset. I think you are saying that the break up of the UK isn’t too high a price to pay for Brexit. Wow.

Gill, I am saying that it would not be the financial, nor indeed the political calamity that Jack seems to imply.

I can only echo Gill. WOW

[Gill W]

Which are?

Keith,
Sorry, misunderstood you. But if NI go, so will Scotland. - and I wouldn't put any money on Wales staying either. England ends up as Billy no mates.

Whoopee, they have been millstones round our necks for far too long. We will no longer have to twist businessmen's arms to get them to relocate to these outposts, and they will no longer receive disproportionate subsidies from Westminster. I cannot see any downside at all in that Jack.

I said in my last post that I’m still flummoxed by the Brexiter mindset. I think you are saying that the break up of the UK isn’t too high a price to pay for Brexit. Wow.

Gill, I am saying that it would not be the financial, nor indeed the political calamity that Jack seems to imply.

Do you mean Brexit (especially a no deal Brexit) wouldn’t be a financial or political calamity? (more than just Jack are saying that)

Or do you mean the break up of the U.K. wouldn’t be a calamity?

Or both.

[Gill W]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45165222

With the news that passport control queues reached a wait time of 2.5 hours for non EEA visitors, just wondering how Border Control will cope post Brexit (especially a non deal Brexit). Presumably, only U.K. citizen passport holders will be able to use the automatic passport readers and everyone else will join the queue, as free movement of people will come to an abrupt end.

Also wondering what will happen if we want to visit an EU country. Will agreements be in place in time for us to enter the EU or Schengen area. In the event of a no deal all current arrangements will end.

I did read that Schengen are thinking of an ESTA type system at some point, so I think, ultimately we’ll have to get pre authorised to travel, and pay for it of course.

But in the short term I think there could be a lot of disruption to travel - which would affect us as cruisers, visiting multiple countries in a short space of time.

[oldbluefox]

"The immediate consequences of a “no deal” Brexit in March could be worse for the European Union than for Britain, senior Brussels figures have said".
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-d ... -9m0g7nr98
Be better all round if a deal could be struck then. Tell Barnier to stop b*****ing around and negotiate instead of dismissing everything out of hand.

[towny44]

Whoopee, they have been millstones round our necks for far too long. We will no longer have to twist businessmen's arms to get them to relocate to these outposts, and they will no longer receive disproportionate subsidies from Westminster. I cannot see any downside at all in that Jack.

I said in my last post that I’m still flummoxed by the Brexiter mindset. I think you are saying that the break up of the UK isn’t too high a price to pay for Brexit. Wow.

Gill, I am saying that it would not be the financial, nor indeed the political calamity that Jack seems to imply.

Do you mean Brexit (especially a no deal Brexit) wouldn’t be a financial or political calamity? (more than just Jack are saying that)

Or do you mean the break up of the U.K. wouldn’t be a calamity?

Or both.

Gill, that comment was in response to Jack's about the potential split up of the UK, so not specifically related to any other effects of a no deal Brexit. However I do not envisage any break up of the UK since I do not foresee any of the parliaments of the junior three being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.