Brexit

[Jack Staff]

"The immediate consequences of a “no deal” Brexit in March could be worse for the European Union than for Britain, senior Brussels figures have said".
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-d ... -9m0g7nr98
Be better all round if a deal could be struck then. Tell Barnier to stop b*****ing around and negotiate instead of dismissing everything out of hand.

Brexiters create the biggest crisis in this country's history since at least Suez, but it's OK because some foreigners are going to suffer more.

Be better if the UK government had come up with a plan before last month, better if that plan was possible.

Even better, we just stop this madness now.

[Jack Staff]

Gill, that comment was in response to Jack's about the potential split up of the UK, so not specifically related to any other effects of a no deal Brexit. However I do not envisage any break up of the UK since I do not foresee any of the parliaments of the junior three being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.

So there is more and worse than the end of our country?

I did not envisage any break up of the EU since I did not foresee the parliament of the UK being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.

[Manoverboard]

Jack …. you really are a sore loser

As I said at the Brighton conference ; Brexit meant Brexit and negotiations are always concluded at the eleventh hour.

There will be a deal which should encompass the population as a whole but not one that will suit either end of the extremes.

ps …. over and out …. ish

[towny44]

Gill, that comment was in response to Jack's about the potential split up of the UK, so not specifically related to any other effects of a no deal Brexit. However I do not envisage any break up of the UK since I do not foresee any of the parliaments of the junior three being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.

So there is more and worse than the end of our country?

I did not envisage any break up of the EU since I did not foresee the parliament of the UK being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.

Jack, if you really believe that England derives a financial benefit from having an association with the other 3 member states of the UK, then you are far, far more delusional than I first thought.

[Jack Staff]

Jack, if you really believe that England derives a financial benefit from having an association with the other 3 member states of the UK, then you are far, far more delusional than I first thought.

John, if you really believe that people who are not directly financially beneficial to you are not worth considering, then my comments would be removed by the mods.

[oldbluefox]

"The immediate consequences of a “no deal” Brexit in March could be worse for the European Union than for Britain, senior Brussels figures have said".
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-d ... -9m0g7nr98
Be better all round if a deal could be struck then. Tell Barnier to stop b*****ing around and negotiate instead of dismissing everything out of hand.

Brexiters create the biggest crisis in this country's history since at least Suez, but it's OK because some foreigners are going to suffer more. Not what I said at all. Try reading further

Be better if the UK government had come up with a plan before last month, better if that plan was possible. Numerous plans have been put forward under a Brexit by another name PM which have been dismissed by Barnier

Even better, we just stop this madness now. Brexit will happen no matter how much the Remain camp stamp their feet.

[Jack Staff]

"The immediate consequences of a “no deal” Brexit in March could be worse for the European Union than for Britain, senior Brussels figures have said".
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-d ... -9m0g7nr98
Be better all round if a deal could be struck then. Tell Barnier to stop b*****ing around and negotiate instead of dismissing everything out of hand.

Brexiters create the biggest crisis in this country's history since at least Suez, but it's OK because some foreigners are going to suffer more. Not what I said at all. Try reading further
The Times said it, and you posted it.
Be better if the UK government had come up with a plan before last month, better if that plan was possible. Numerous plans have been put forward under a Brexit by another name PM which have been dismissed by Barnier
All of which were just to please the Conservative party, none were possible. We knew the rules two years ago - we wrote them.

Even better, we just stop this madness now. Brexit will happen no matter how much the Remain camp stamp their feet.

Brexit is dead. Try as much resuscitation as you like, it's now a case of damage limitation.

[towny44]

Jack, if you really believe that England derives a financial benefit from having an association with the other 3 member states of the UK, then you are far, far more delusional than I first thought.

John, if you really believe that people who are not directly financially beneficial to you are not worth considering, then my comments would be removed by the mods.

Jack, you make Alastair Campbell seem like a pussy cat, how you can twist and distort all our comments to fit your narrow remain narrative is worthy of a knighthood, just as long as I can handle sword.

[Onelife]

Gill, that comment was in response to Jack's about the potential split up of the UK, so not specifically related to any other effects of a no deal Brexit. However I do not envisage any break up of the UK since I do not foresee any of the parliaments of the junior three being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.

So there is more and worse than the end of our country?

I did not envisage any break up of the EU since I did not foresee the parliament of the UK being stupid enough to divorce the goose that keeps them in golden eggs.

Jack, if you really believe that England derives a financial benefit from having an association with the other 3 member states of the UK, then you are far, far more delusional than I first thought.

Whilst I wouldn't like to see the break up of the UK... however you have to ask yourselves what do NI, Scotland and Wales really contribute to England...I don't have any figures to go on but I wouldn't mind betting that those countries are economically very dependent on handouts from the rest of England...I think more of a case could be made for retaining Wales and Scotland...we get sheep and water from Wales and oil from Scotland , as for NI the only thing I can think of that is of benefit to England is their NH horses...OK let them stay

What I do find very unfair is that these countries enjoy such benefits as free prescriptions and near as dam it free university fees...if we wish to retain a united kingdom then whats good for one should be good for all.

[Mervyn and Trish]

I'd promised to keep out of this, but I'm returning to offer four observations, then I'm gone again. I've no doubt you'll dismiss this line by line Jack. Fair enough, you're entitled to your view, but as far as I know you are not in the room with the negotiators nor part of the Cabinet so you don't actually know any more than the rest of us, so I won't be arguing with your rebuttals.

So first off why assume this is going to result in the break up of the UK? That is clearly not what the people of Northern Ireland want or they would have opted for reunification years ago and there wouldn't even be an Irish issue. No more do the people of the Republic want a hard border with the North. So we will find a way to make it work for both. If the EU try to veto that then the case for Brexit is made even more clearly. I do know I do not wish to be part of the United States of Europe.

Second we all choose which newspapers to read. And surely we're all intelligent people and know that they all have owners whose views dictate the editorial stance of the papers. So on what basis are the equally partisan Times and Guardian any more credible than the Mail or the Express? They all speculate, spin and twist to suit their agenda. To claim something is untrue because it is in one paper on one day but correct because it is in another on a different day is baseless.

Third the countries of the EU and the EU as an entity do not wish us to leave. For some we are the golden goose. For others we are a refuge from their poor conditions at home, in many cases directly as a result of EU policies. Some just like to have power over us. The entire EU negotiating stance is not aimed at getting a deal which works for them or us, it is aimed at persuading us to change our minds. If it was decided we'd have a referendum on the final deal their resolve to make sure the deal they offered was unacceptable would increase. The arch remainers such as Vince Cable know this and welcome it. The negotiating stance will not change until the 59th minute of the 11th hour and maybe not even then. It may not be until we are actually gone. Then we will become a third party country, the fifth largest economy in the world, and they will want to negotiate a trade deal with us.

Finally, when our economy slowed down in the first quarter and growth fell below the EU the prophets of doom were quick to say look we told you so. I notice they have been quiet since the second quarter figures show our growth has rebounded and is now once again ahead of the EU.

I'm not pretending this will be easy. I never believed it would. But I believe the prize will be worth it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I know Jack and Gill won't. Fair enough. We all have our views and they are all valid. None of us actually know. We all have our views too on how the future within the EU would have panned out. None of us know that either. It was a gamble either way.

[barney]

https://www.politico.eu/article/introdu ... migration/

Once again, the liberals call it wrong.
I wonder what it must feel like to be constantly wrong?

Politico EU is the most pro EU biased website but even they can see that the right are rising in Europe.
As someone who has always been 'left leaning' in my political views, it's very worrying.
Far more worrying than us leaving the political constraints of the EU.

I think that if there was going to be an uprising against the vote in 2016, it would have happened by now.
Stuff & nonsense.
Smoke & mirrors.
With only the Libdems supporting remain, it really has no chance.
Maybe if all the vocal minority had voted LibDem in the 2017 election, they may have had a bit of credibility, but all they have a few MPs no one has heard of and dear old Vince.
Seven months to go

[Jack Staff]

I'd promised to keep out of this, but I'm returning to offer four observations, then I'm gone again. I've no doubt you'll dismiss this line by line Jack.

If even you don't have the confidence in your convictions to stand by them, I don't think I'll bother.

[barney]

I'd promised to keep out of this, but I'm returning to offer four observations, then I'm gone again. I've no doubt you'll dismiss this line by line Jack.

If even you don't have the confidence in your convictions to stand by them, I don't think I'll bother.

The point really is, Jack, that you can argue until the cows come home but that doesn't change the fact that the UK is leaving the constraints of the EU end of March next year.
Nothing anyone says will change that.
It's just how that is up for debate.
Bad deal, or no deal ?

Personally, I think that we will end up with May's chequers deal, which while not keen on, can live with for now.
The next Tory government can then move further away over time.
Should a mircale happen and Corbyn win power, then it will be a total break from the EU.
He cannot implement his policies otherwise.

Of course, come 2022 election, the LibDems will stand on a 'join the EU' mandate and may get overwhelming support.
I reckon that you'd vote for them wouldn't you?

[Jack Staff]

https://www.politico.eu/article/introdu ... migration/

Sorry Barney, I admit I only skimmed that.

There won't be any new party (that works). As I have said before it took UKIP twenty years to get nowhere. They may have influenced things.

The first party to switch to Remain gains power.
Conference season is coming. Do Labour ditch Corbyn? Does Theresa say "I tried my best and failed, so we stay."
With the Conservatives lust for power and the impotency of normal Labour voters, I suspect the latter. Who knows, but conference will be fun this year.

[Jack Staff]

The point really is, Jack, that you can argue until the cows come home but that doesn't change the fact that the UK is leaving the constraints of the EU end of March next year.
Nothing anyone says will change that.

May just has to write another letter.

It's just how that is up for debate.
Bad deal, or no deal ?

Bad or very bad.

Personally, I think that we will end up with May's chequers deal, which while not keen on, can live with for now.

It can't work. There is no way we can have that deal.

The next Tory government can then move further away over time.
Should a mircale happen and Corbyn win power, then it will be a total break from the EU.
He cannot implement his policies otherwise.

Corbyn in power? No chance.

Of course, come 2022 election, the LibDems will stand on a 'join the EU' mandate and may get overwhelming support.
I reckon that you'd vote for them wouldn't you?

Definately a pro EU party, Lib Dem, Green, Plaid, SNP, Alliance, but by then I will also have the choice of the two main parties.

[Stephen]

Jack, if you really believe that England derives a financial benefit from having an association with the other 3 member states of the UK, then you are far, far more delusional than I first thought.

John, if you really believe that people who are not directly financially beneficial to you are not worth considering, then my comments would be removed by the mods.

Jack, you make Alastair Campbell seem like a pussy cat, how you can twist and distort all our comments to fit your narrow remain narrative is worthy of a knighthood, just as long as I can handle sword.

Can I be chief sword sharpener

[Onelife]

Towney wrote......

Jack, you make Alastair Campbell seem like a pussy cat, how you can twist and distort all our comments to fit your narrow remain narrative is worthy of a knighthood, just as long as I can handle sword.

Well get on with it before Jack has the chance to reply

[Ray Scully]

Hey guys careful what you wish for. If we do leave the EU and this results in the break up of the Union. Who the hell will be there left to blame ???

[Manoverboard]

Jack ?

[Onelife]

Jack ?

[Stephen]

Would that be Eunion Jack

[Ray Scully]

Jack ?

Well I suppose that's as well reasoned as blaming the EU for all our current problems

[Mervyn and Trish]

Hey guys careful what you wish for. If we do leave the EU and this results in the break up of the Union. Who the hell will be there left to blame ???

Apart from all the other reasons (No, Jack I'm not going to list them again, I already did so some time ago and I know you disagree so don't bother to tell me again) one reason for leaving the EU is it will make all the other tiers of government in the UK (parliament, county councils, unitary authorities, district councils, town councils, parish councils, regional authorities, elected mayors, police and fire authorities, devolved parliaments and anyone else I've forgotten, take responsibility for their own decisions.

Never again will they be able to say "we are not responsible for this bonkers decision, the EU told us to."

[Jack Staff]

Hey guys careful what you wish for. If we do leave the EU and this results in the break up of the Union. Who the hell will be there left to blame ???

Apart from all the other reasons (No, Jack I'm not going to list them again, I already did so some time ago and I know you disagree so don't bother to tell me again) one reason for leaving the EU is it will make all the other tiers of government in the UK (parliament, county councils, unitary authorities, district councils, town councils, parish councils, regional authorities, elected mayors, police and fire authorities, devolved parliaments and anyone else I've forgotten, take responsibility for their own decisions.

Never again will they be able to say "we are not responsible for this bonkers decision, the EU told us to."

The blame for all Britain's woes will then fall on the Brexiters. Fickle bunch, 'the people' (and their 'will').

Of course, by then there won't be any Brexiters left. The ones that benefited will be in Monaco, the ones that didn't "always said it was a bad idea".

[Gill W]

"The immediate consequences of a “no deal” Brexit in March could be worse for the European Union than for Britain, senior Brussels figures have said".
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-d ... -9m0g7nr98
Be better all round if a deal could be struck then. Tell Barnier to stop b*****ing around and negotiate instead of dismissing everything out of hand.

We have to give our negotiating team a kick up the backside too and come up with something that the EU wouldn't dismiss out of hand.