Brexit

[barney]

After three and a half weeks away on the lovely Aurora, my conclusion is that nothing has changed.

We are no closer to a 'deal' than when I went away.

Even if a 'deal' is struck, then it'd have to get through parliament, which doesn't seem to be a remote possibility.

Scanning the posts on this forum, I have noted that the atmosphere is becoming even more unpleasant.

welcome back Gill

little has changed in your absence

hope that you had a wonder ful time

[Gill W]

A great time thanks!

I will be doing a report soon

[barney]

Nice one.
I look forward to it.
I love to read other's experiences.

Except Stephen's.
Got on, had a good time, got off !

[Stephen]

Nice one.
I look forward to it.
I love to read other's experiences.

Except Stephen's.
Got on, had a good time, got off !

I like it to be comprehensive

[towny44]

Nice one.
I look forward to it.
I love to read other's experiences.

Except Stephen's.
Got on, had a good time, got off !

I like it to be comprehensive

I try to be Grammar School.

[Ray Scully]

joke44.jpg

[barney]

Foster is seriously racked off about this
quote below from Belfast Telegraph
“This backstop arrangement would not be temporary. It would be the permanent annexation of Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom and forever leave us subject to rules made in a place where we have no say,” wrote Foster.

How on earth the EU & Ireland think that this can be acceptable is beyond me.


Unless the EU reign it in, the DUP will bring down the Government and there will have to be a general election before Brexit.
I'd predict a hung parliament either way, and the UK will leave at the end of March with no agreement and no transition.

Maybe the Remain crew who have tried to derail the process at every stage will then be satisfied.
They will end up getting the exact opposite of what they wanted.
That is, the UK leaving the EU with no agreement.

[Ray Scully]

Foster is seriously racked off about this
quote below from Belfast Telegraph
“This backstop arrangement would not be temporary. It would be the permanent annexation of Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom and forever leave us subject to rules made in a place where we have no say,” wrote Foster.

How on earth the EU & Ireland think that this can be acceptable is beyond me.


Unless the EU reign it in, the DUP will bring down the Government and there will have to be a general election before Brexit.
I'd predict a hung parliament either way, and the UK will leave at the end of March with no agreement and no transition.

Maybe the Remain crew who have tried to derail the process at every stage will then be satisfied.
They will end up getting the exact opposite of what they wanted.
That is, the UK leaving the EU with no agreement.

Priceless Barney old chap;

[barney]

Well, the question to ask yourself is would you tolerate a trade barrier between England and Wales or England and Scotland.
If the answer is no you wouldn't, then you cannot possibly think that this EU proposal is an acceptable idea.

It's as simple as that really.

With this idea, the EU are creating exactly what they say they want to avoid. That is a hard border on the island of Ireland, because no agreement is inevitable unless they come up with some weirdly worded fudge compromise.

[Ray Scully]

I can't understand why you blame the EU Barney. It is the UK leaving them. What a pity the difficulties and complexities were not discussed in a more open and honest manner prior to the referendum. Those who sold it as a walk in the park were either deceitful in the extreme or totally stupid.

[barney]

You won't get any argument from me Ray.
I don't blame the EU at all. They can ask for anything as long as us telling them to do one, doesn't offend their sensibilities.
This government have made a total pigs ear of it all, with indecision at every step.
It could have been so much easier with a committed leader.
May has bent with the wind in a pathetic effort to be all things to all people.

The position should have been that immediately after Article 50 was sent to Brussels, the UK should have been making all plans for leaving without agreement.
Everything necessary would now be in place and the EU would have been clear that is was irreversible.
Then , and only then should we have attempted to negotiate a trade agreement.

it is only very recently that the EU side have accepted the result.
Tusk said as much last week.
But, at least they have now.
Many in this country still seem to be under the illusion that we can somehow stay in, even though the vote was clearly to leave.
Some deluded souls calling for a 'peoples vote' seem to think that the outcome would be different. (who do they think voted last time ? dolphins?)
All polls show that there is nothing to choose between the two camps andit would be a very narrow stay, or a very narrow leave, so nothing changes.

All that can now happen is that we leave in March next year, with or without a trade agreement.

Even if there is a general election in the meantime, we will still leave because that is also Labour policy.
The only difference between the two is on what terms.
Labour favour staying in 'A' customs union whatever that means.

The only reason that we have had such complexities is because of very, very bad management and political agitators who cannot accept the legitimate result.
If May had concentrated on actually leaving as opposed to trying to do a deal, things would have far more clarity now.

Certain EU projects that are mutually beneficial could be negotiated.
Simply by asking questions.
But if they don't want us in, fine, we'll go it alone.
We are a rich nation and very cabable of standing on our own two feet.

Let's be honest.
If this result, which was the biggest vote in UK history, is allowed to be over turned by professional agitators with vested interests, then what is the point of ever have another vote, about anything ?

[Ray Scully]

Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.

[towny44]

Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.

Ray, what exactly are you trying to say? Seems to me that you are so annoyed with the referendum result that your mouth is running away with you.

[Ray Scully]

Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.

Ray, what exactly are you trying to say? Seems to me that you are so annoyed with the referendum result that your mouth is running away with you.

John

Rather than having a personal pot, perhaps you can tell me where I am wrong in MY assessment of the current situation.

[towny44]

Sorry Barney, but no, the fundamental's of leaving the EU have not changed since the referendum was mooted. Whosoever had been charged with the task of leaving would have had the same virtually unplayable hand (Bojo and Davis who were charged with the task were severely unsuccessful. BTW what was to be the legitimate result of the referendum, cliff edge Brexit, break up the union to get a deal, stay in the customs union and single market. Brexit means Brexit it an insult to most peoples intelligence.

Ray, what exactly are you trying to say? Seems to me that you are so annoyed with the referendum result that your mouth is running away with you.

John

Rather than having a personal pot, perhaps you can tell me where I am wrong in MY assessment of the current situation.

Ray, its not a personal pot at you but a serious question, I have very little idea of the points you are trying to make, if you have any serious proposals as to how we should arrange a sensible exit from the EU in the face of their complete unwillingness to do anything except repeat the De Gaulle answer of "Non" then do please share them with our community. I assume when article 50 was being written that the EU did envisage the possibility that a country might use it to leave, if so why on earth are they trying to make leaving so impossible.

[Ray Scully]

John Ironically it was Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was the author of Article 50. My disillusionment revolves around those who thought/said we could expect a good deal from the EU on leaving when it was transparently obvious that to give the UK such a deal could damage the EU. Also being from Irish descent I am acutely aware of the fragile political situation in the North that will take generations for the hostility to finally recede. As for a serious proposal, WELL! far cleverer people than me are and have been trying to "square this circle" with little success.

[barney]

As I've said many times John, the EU is obliged to make it as difficult as possible for no other reason than to discourage others.
There is a huge amount of anti EU feeling all across Europe.

I have family and very good friends in Malta and have spent a lot of time there.

While the Maltese government is VERY pro EU, my feeling is that the majority regret voting to join.
Join the EU won by 54% to 46% so it was hardly a ringing endorsement.
The is no dispute that Malta has done tremendously well financially from the EU, but is has sort of ripped the guts out of the country.
Over development is through the roof.
The roads are gridlocked.
Property prices have priced out young people and locals due to over demand.
The major conribution to all of this is free movement of people.
The spike in population has caused a lot of problems and surpressed wages.
The island is now full of eastern Europeans living 10 to a flat and working for peanuts.
Someone is doing pretty well out of it all, but it's not the locals.

They gained full independence in 1964 and sold it in 2004 for a handful of silver.

[barney]

John Ironically it was Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was the author of Article 50. My disillusionment revolves around those who thought/said we could expect a good deal from the EU on leaving when it was transparently obvious that to give the UK such a deal could damage the EU. Also being from Irish descent I am acutely aware of the fragile political situation in the North that will take generations for the hostility to finally recede. As for a serious proposal, WELL! far cleverer people than me are and have been trying to "square this circle" with little success.

Once again we are in full agreement Ray.
My stance has always been that the EU would do everything in it's power to discourage leaving and hopefully be able to reverse the decision as it has in other countries.
Now they seem to have come to terms with the fact the UK is not changing it's mind, there seems to be an element of concern in Brussels.

My personal opinion is that they are prepared to hang Ireland out to dry, to protect their 'four freedoms'

The simple fact that our government has said that the UK will not implement a border under any circumstance has thrown their tactic in to chaos.
So, we will not implement a physical border.
The Irish have said that they will not implement a border.
That only leaves the EU to implement one.
Will they guard it with German troops ?

The penny has dropped in Germany
https://punchng.com/german-business-los ... xit-talks/

[Jack Staff]

Explained...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZEHyzu ... e=youtu.be

[Gill W]

Foster is seriously racked off about this
quote below from Belfast Telegraph
“This backstop arrangement would not be temporary. It would be the permanent annexation of Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom and forever leave us subject to rules made in a place where we have no say,” wrote Foster.

How on earth the EU & Ireland think that this can be acceptable is beyond me.


Unless the EU reign it in, the DUP will bring down the Government and there will have to be a general election before Brexit.
I'd predict a hung parliament either way, and the UK will leave at the end of March with no agreement and no transition.

Maybe the Remain crew who have tried to derail the process at every stage will then be satisfied.
They will end up getting the exact opposite of what they wanted.
That is, the UK leaving the EU with no agreement.

Why are you trying to blame remainers?

DUP are pro Brexit
If they DON'T bring down the government, then no doubt the Brexiters in the Conservative party will.

If blame has to be apportioned it should go to the Leave Campaign for their campaign that tricked people into thinking it was going to be a walk into the park, the government for their sheer ineptitude in negotiations, and Brexit leaning politicians.

I don't blame leave voters for the way they voted, but I point the finger at them for their sheer pigheadedness that it's got to proceed, even though it's heading towards a disaster.

But, no, according to some on here, it's all down to remainers!

[Gill W]

John Ironically it was Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was the author of Article 50. My disillusionment revolves around those who thought/said we could expect a good deal from the EU on leaving when it was transparently obvious that to give the UK such a deal could damage the EU. Also being from Irish descent I am acutely aware of the fragile political situation in the North that will take generations for the hostility to finally recede. As for a serious proposal, WELL! far cleverer people than me are and have been trying to "square this circle" with little success.

Once again we are in full agreement Ray.
My stance has always been that the EU would do everything in it's power to discourage leaving and hopefully be able to reverse the decision as it has in other countries.
Now they seem to have come to terms with the fact the UK is not changing it's mind, there seems to be an element of concern in Brussels.

My personal opinion is that they are prepared to hang Ireland out to dry, to protect their 'four freedoms'

The simple fact that our government has said that the UK will not implement a border under any circumstance has thrown their tactic in to chaos.
So, we will not implement a physical border.
The Irish have said that they will not implement a border.
That only leaves the EU to implement one.
Will they guard it with German troops ?

The penny has dropped in Germany
https://punchng.com/german-business-los ... xit-talks/

Or we could stop Brexit completely, that'd sort it out.

[Jack Staff]

Or we could stop Brexit completely, that'd sort it out.

[Stephen]

And pigs might fly.

[Gill W]

And pigs might fly.

Very true - so Brexiters should just stop moaning. They're getting what they want, they've got to deal with it

[barney]

Nobody is moaning Gill, well, except those who lost!
And nobody is blaming the reamainers or the EU.
I'm certainly not anyway.
I don't even blame the Leave campaign.
I blame May 100% for handling the whole thing so badly, and to rub salt in, continuing to do so.

We've all got to deal with it, not just those who voted leave.
We all own it because it was a democratic decision, voted for by the majority.
I understand why many disagree, but you will get your chance to change it at the next election, which may be sooner than you think.
The LibDems should walk it as the only Stop Brexit party.

What a funny old world it's turned in to.
Once upon a time, a vote counted for something.
Now days, if you have lost, you can just refuse to recognise it.
Some in the USA still declare that Trump is not the President.
They just cannot accept that they called it wrong.

As for Femi Oluwole, his organisation is funded by George Soros amongst others. (according to The Guardian)
That well known 'man of the people'
He shares office space with six anti-Brexit groups; Best for Britain, Open Britain, European Movement, Britain for Europe, Scientists for EU, Healthier IN and InFacts that have been brought together by Chukka Umunna’s GCG.
His apparent common sense approach is blighted by one important fact.
There was a legitimate vote and his side lost it.
If there was to be a 'people's vote' as a second referendum, these organisations would need to declare their funding sources under the rules of the Electoral Commission.
Now, that would be interesting.