Brexit

[johnds]

Correct. Prisoners are not allowed to vote.

Jack
You rant on and have reached the point now where you completely ignore the system of justice we have in this country

The man has not even been charged

What happened to the principle of innocent before proven guilty

You are completely unaware as we all are of the evidence in this matter but jump to your own conclusion

[johnds]

I watched his interview and to be honest I thought that Marr was really bad in this one.
The BBC wheeled Banks out to make a fool of him and it turned out the other way.
I think Marr was shocked by how candid he was and turned quite aggressive in the end.

He was so emphatic with his answers that the truth must out.
A. he is telling the truth.
B. he lied live on national TV and will be found out.

He is more slippery than a bucket of eels but he is either telling the truth or not.

I watched the entire interview.
As a chartered accountant for over 50 years I do have some insight into the corporate world.

Andrew Marr was completely out of his depth as his complete lack of understanding of corporate structures
shone though brightly.

He resorted to harrassment and repeating the same allegations time and again
He was, not for the first time, downright rude.

Why should Aaron Banks or anyone else for that matter produce his bank statement to the
likes of Andrew Marr or to any one else at the BBC.

[barney]

I agree John.

The BBC should have employed someone like Andrew Neil if they wanted to go down that road.
Poor old Marr was well outside of his comfort zone.

They normally continue with the same question because they don't get an answer.
In this case he continued even though he kept getting the same answer.
Quite a bizarre interview in my opinion.

Banks also rang rings around the select committee when interviewed.
Damian Green was asked today whether he wanted him back before the committee and he said no, he'd leave it to the NCA.
Wisest thing he's said in years.
He looked a fool and his face was a picture when Banks called it to an end because he was going to lunch.
I've met Green and it's a mystery how he got to be an MP.

Anyone remember George Galloway running rings around a US senate select committee.
TV heaven !
The man is a first class tool but he tied them up in knots because they didn't know their subject.

[Gill W]

Meanwhile back in the real world, even Arron Banks thinks, if he had his time again, we should Remain.

Selective quoting there Gill.

The end of the sentence was because of the pigs ear that May has made of the whole thing.
The final agreement is not really going to be Brexit is it?

I watched his interview and to be honest I thought that Marr was really bad in this one.
The BBC wheeled Banks out to make a fool of him and it turned out the other way.
I think Marr was shocked by how candid he was and turned quite aggressive in the end.

He was so emphatic with his answers that the truth must out.
A. he is telling the truth.
B. he lied live on national TV and will be found out.

He is more slippery than a bucket of eels but he is either telling the truth or not.

The full quote was

'The corruption I have seem in British politics, the sewer that exists and the disgraceful behaviour of the government over what they are doing with Brexit and how they are selling out, means that if I had my time again I think we would have been better to probably remain and not unleash these demons.'

That says to me, even if his ideology is to Leave, in practical terms he's seen what a complete nightmare it's causing, and thinks remain would have been the lesser of two evils.

IF there's an agreement, it looks like it will please no one.

We will be worse off than we are now, and still tied to the EU without a place at the table.

Again I say, what's the bloomin' point? That's rhetorical, by the way, no need for an answer.

If there's not a deal, (seems to be 50/50 at present), what we have seen so far will just by the hors D'oEUvres

[Golden Princess]

I dont quite understand. As far as I can see there are possibly only two people (and perhaps me occasionally) who regularly answer posts on this page with a more of a not believing in Brexit stance than the rest of the posters. And yet they are shouted down and told they are ranting.

Put this into perspective. These two people generally post in reply to a (best not call it a rant!) statement made by one of the group of guys who, obviously, thoroughly uphold the ideology of Brexit despite any consequences for many for maybe the next 50 years. Then two, three or more of this group jump on them and tell them they are ranting (and that is one of the best case scenarios as I have not forgotten that truly offensive post some months ago).

Are they not allowed an opinion without being spoken to in such a manner? Are they not allowed to put the other side of the debate? Without them this forum would die.

No wonder no others feel able to join in with this thread.

[Onelife]

Hi Princess,

"Without them this forum would die"

On that we do agree Princess.........If only everyone was as nice and polite as me

[Gill W]

I dont quite understand. As far as I can see there are possibly only two people (and perhaps me occasionally) who regularly answer posts on this page with a more of a not believing in Brexit stance than the rest of the posters. And yet they are shouted down and told they are ranting.

Put this into perspective. These two people generally post in reply to a (best not call it a rant!) statement made by one of the group of guys who, obviously, thoroughly uphold the ideology of Brexit despite any consequences for many for maybe the next 50 years. Then two, three or more of this group jump on them and tell them they are ranting (and that is one of the best case scenarios as I have not forgotten that truly offensive post some months ago).

Are they not allowed an opinion without being spoken to in such a manner? Are they not allowed to put the other side of the debate? Without them this forum would die.

No wonder no others feel able to join in with this thread.

You are quite right, GP, the other day, just out of curiosity, I went back a few pages, and recorded several instances of some pretty unpleasant comments directed at Remainers and Jack in particular. In addition to that, many posts always have a undertone to them which is always having a dig at Remainers.

Then, like the other day, when I finally had enough - it was a comment about water cannoning Remainers that did it - and I bit back, saying that I wished the person in question would stop making snippy comments about remainers, I was met with outraged indignance and aggression (I'll say what I like and if you don't like it, tough) I really did wonder why I bother at all.

I think Brexiters would prefer it if this forum turned into an echo chamber.

Brexit is going to affect us all one way or another, and I cant help wondering if there are other forum members who'd like to talk about it, but are put off by this thread being such a bear pit.

We've all known each other for a long time - is it really so impossible just to talk to each other, regardless of our view on Brexit. We don't have to keep trying to prove we are right, it's gone past that now.

PLEASE - can we stop digging at each other and just talk about evolving events?

[towny44]

Gill, You're views on what you perceive as the likely outcome of leaving the EU seem to be based on the paranoia of the most fervent remainers, my view has precious little to do with what Boris, Nigel or any other Brexit supporting politician have to say. It is purely my belief that the EU and it's federal agenda is not something that I want to be a part of, now I hope that a negotiated agreement can be achieved which prevents the possibility of major problems with import and export documentation, and I probably expect that it might take time for the UK to reap the benefits that free trade with the faster developing countries will bring. But I hope that the potential slowdown in our economy will be short lived and not too painful, but I do believe it is the right choice for me, my family and for the nation as a whole. I don't expect it to lead to a break up of the UK, unlike Jack, and I do expect it to be beneficial in the long term, and not 50 years like JRM.
Now I also accept your views and your right to hold them, even if I disagree with your conclusions, equally I am absolutely certain that I will never be able to change your mind, can you honestly say, having read all your posts, that you think the same?

[Gill W]

Gill, You're views on what you perceive as the likely outcome of leaving the EU seem to be based on the paranoia of the most fervent remainers, my view has precious little to do with what Boris, Nigel or any other Brexit supporting politician have to say. It is purely my belief that the EU and it's federal agenda is not something that I want to be a part of, now I hope that a negotiated agreement can be achieved which prevents the possibility of major problems with import and export documentation, and I probably expect that it might take time for the UK to reap the benefits that free trade with the faster developing countries will bring. But I hope that the potential slowdown in our economy will be short lived and not too painful, but I do believe it is the right choice for me, my family and for the nation as a whole. I don't expect it to lead to a break up of the UK, unlike Jack, and I do expect it to be beneficial in the long term, and not 50 years like JRM.
Now I also accept your views and your right to hold them, even if I disagree with your conclusions, equally I am absolutely certain that I will never be able to change your mind, can you honestly say, having read all your posts, that you think the same?

Why do we have to change each other"s minds?

We've ascertained everybody's opinions a multitude of times.

What I am saying is, can't we all speak to each other without all this veiled and even overt unpleasantness.

From where I'm sitting, the constant drip, drip, drip of little comments is become very wearing, and frankly toxic.

Even your reply has added to it by telling me how my views have been formed. That is actually very patronising, and I find it unacceptable . Is it too much to ask for, and receive, an apology for that?

[Manoverboard]

Looking back on the posts with my MOD hat on I would say there are an extremely low number that are genuinely offensive.

Any that were will have been deleted. There are however an awful lot of frank exchanges that are directed at Jack but these are normally responses and / or playful banter between the various Members rather than aggression. If this were not the case then Jack would have complained or have stopped posting.

If some have been offended then that is unfortunate but the vast majority have not, those who have left this Topic have done so because of the never ending circles rather than for any other reason.

Regards MobyMod

[towny44]

Gill, You're views on what you perceive as the likely outcome of leaving the EU seem to be based on the paranoia of the most fervent remainers, my view has precious little to do with what Boris, Nigel or any other Brexit supporting politician have to say. It is purely my belief that the EU and it's federal agenda is not something that I want to be a part of, now I hope that a negotiated agreement can be achieved which prevents the possibility of major problems with import and export documentation, and I probably expect that it might take time for the UK to reap the benefits that free trade with the faster developing countries will bring. But I hope that the potential slowdown in our economy will be short lived and not too painful, but I do believe it is the right choice for me, my family and for the nation as a whole. I don't expect it to lead to a break up of the UK, unlike Jack, and I do expect it to be beneficial in the long term, and not 50 years like JRM.
Now I also accept your views and your right to hold them, even if I disagree with your conclusions, equally I am absolutely certain that I will never be able to change your mind, can you honestly say, having read all your posts, that you think the same?

Why do we have to change each other"s minds?

We've ascertained everybody's opinions a multitude of times.

What I am saying is, can't we all speak to each other without all this veiled and even overt unpleasantness.

From where I'm sitting, the constant drip, drip, drip of little comments is become very wearing, and frankly toxic.

Even your reply has added to it by telling me how my views have been formed. That is actually very patronising, and I find it unacceptable . Is it too much to ask for, and receive, an apology for that?

Gill, what on earth is wrong with my comment which I clearly indicate is MY VIEW of why you are so concerned about the outcome of Brexit, if my assumption is incorrect then do please tell us why you are so keen to stay in the EU, and please do address that issue rather than the benefits of being in a free trade association, which if that were all the EU was would be equally fine with me.
However if my comment upset you then I apologise, but I have gleaned nothing in any of your comments that indicates support for the EU other than its trade advantages, even Jack's comments about leavers leading to the break up of the UK will only be vaguely true if the intransigent EU negotiators refuse to accommodate any of the many UK suggestions for an Irish border backstop.
My head says that remaining in the EU would possibly safeguard our economic position, but my heart will never agree with the federalist movement in the EU.

[CaroleF]

I think we have to accept that we will never change the views of people who think the direct opposite to us, whatever our view may be. I do read most of the postings on her but I rarely contribute because it just all seems to go round and round in a circle. Let's face it, until it's all done and dusted, assuming it eventually is, we are not going to know what the outcome will be. I hope people are able to contribute without fear of offensive responses and I'm sure that the moderators will remove any that are.

Carole

[Onelife]

Looking back on the posts with my MOD hat on I would say there are an extremely low number that are genuinely offensive.

Any that were will have been deleted. There are however an awful lot of frank exchanges that are directed at Jack but these are normally responses and / or playful banter between the various Members rather than aggression. If this were not the case then Jack would have complained or have stopped posting.

If some have been offended then that is unfortunate but the vast majority have not, those who have left this Topic have done so because of the never ending circles rather than for any other reason.

Regards MobyMod

With "age" comes wisdom Mob

[Stephen]

I think we have to accept that we will never change the views of people who think the direct opposite to us, whatever our view may be. I do read most of the postings on her but I rarely contribute because it just all seems to go round and round in a circle. Let's face it, until it's all done and dusted, assuming it eventually is, we are not going to know what the outcome will be. I hope people are able to contribute without fear of offensive responses and I'm sure that the moderators will remove any that are.

Carole

[Stephen]

Looking back on the posts with my MOD hat on I would say there are an extremely low number that are genuinely offensive.

Any that were will have been deleted. There are however an awful lot of frank exchanges that are directed at Jack but these are normally responses and / or playful banter between the various Members rather than aggression. If this were not the case then Jack would have complained or have stopped posting.

If some have been offended then that is unfortunate but the vast majority have not, those who have left this Topic have done so because of the never ending circles rather than for any other reason.

Regards MobyMod

With "age" comes wisdom Mob

I thought they fell out years ago........a bit like my hair, before you say it

[Onelife]

Mob being my best mate l find that comment quite offensive Stephen......even though he did tell me ......"All l want for Christmas is me two front teeth"





.

[Stephen]

Mob being my best mate l find that comment quite offensive Stephen......even though he did tell me ......"All l want for Christmas is me two front teeth"





.

I apologise for any fences that got damaged...........snow flake

[Jack Staff]

Brexit talks at ‘complete impasse’ on Ireland I’m told, with rupture between May & Raab over his ‘unilateral’ attempt get Varadkar to in effect scrap the backstop, viewed in No 10 as a ‘grade A blunder’. ‘People are sitting around the table clueless about the next move’

{Adonis}

[Gill W]

those who have left this Topic have done so because of the never ending circles rather than for any other reason.

Regards MobyMod

How you know that? I know of at least one long standing member of the forum who'd had enough of it and hasn't been seen on the forum for a long time now.

[Gill W]

Gill, You're views on what you perceive as the likely outcome of leaving the EU seem to be based on the paranoia of the most fervent remainers, my view has precious little to do with what Boris, Nigel or any other Brexit supporting politician have to say. It is purely my belief that the EU and it's federal agenda is not something that I want to be a part of, now I hope that a negotiated agreement can be achieved which prevents the possibility of major problems with import and export documentation, and I probably expect that it might take time for the UK to reap the benefits that free trade with the faster developing countries will bring. But I hope that the potential slowdown in our economy will be short lived and not too painful, but I do believe it is the right choice for me, my family and for the nation as a whole. I don't expect it to lead to a break up of the UK, unlike Jack, and I do expect it to be beneficial in the long term, and not 50 years like JRM.
Now I also accept your views and your right to hold them, even if I disagree with your conclusions, equally I am absolutely certain that I will never be able to change your mind, can you honestly say, having read all your posts, that you think the same?

Why do we have to change each other"s minds?

We've ascertained everybody's opinions a multitude of times.

What I am saying is, can't we all speak to each other without all this veiled and even overt unpleasantness.

From where I'm sitting, the constant drip, drip, drip of little comments is become very wearing, and frankly toxic.

Even your reply has added to it by telling me how my views have been formed. That is actually very patronising, and I find it unacceptable . Is it too much to ask for, and receive, an apology for that?

Gill, what on earth is wrong with my comment which I clearly indicate is MY VIEW of why you are so concerned about the outcome of Brexit, if my assumption is incorrect then do please tell us why you are so keen to stay in the EU, and please do address that issue rather than the benefits of being in a free trade association, which if that were all the EU was would be equally fine with me.
However if my comment upset you then I apologise, but I have gleaned nothing in any of your comments that indicates support for the EU other than its trade advantages, even Jack's comments about leavers leading to the break up of the UK will only be vaguely true if the intransigent EU negotiators refuse to accommodate any of the many UK suggestions for an Irish border backstop.
My head says that remaining in the EU would possibly safeguard our economic position, but my heart will never agree with the federalist movement in the EU.

Thank you for your apology.

About three years ago, I barely thought about the EU, it really only crossed my mind when I flew into an EU country and could use the EU passport channel, and it used to give me a pleasant feeling that I could enter a country with the minimum of formalities.

When the referendum was announced, at first I didn't know what way to jump. In fact, it was the leave TV adverts that decided me. The Leave adverts were so simplistic, I thought, how could they possibly know if it would turn out the way they are saying. So, after further pondering, I decided to vote Remain. I believed (and still do) that there will be better opportunities for young people to prosper in large group of countries all working together. It's as simple as that really. I know people are worried about a federal Europe, but I'm not sure there the appetite for it in the general public of other counties, and we can't influence it if we are not in it.

These are my views - everything else I have learned since and everything else that has happened has made me believe I made the right choice.

If anybody wants to post a lengthy post to explain why they think I'm wrong - save your time for something more important. We should be beyond that stage now.

[Gill W]

Brexit talks at ‘complete impasse’ on Ireland I’m told, with rupture between May & Raab over his ‘unilateral’ attempt get Varadkar to in effect scrap the backstop, viewed in No 10 as a ‘grade A blunder’. ‘People are sitting around the table clueless about the next move’

{Adonis}

My mind is boggling.

What are they going to do, sit and look at each other cluelessly until Mar 29th?

[Jack Staff]

those who have left this Topic have done so because of the never ending circles rather than for any other reason.

Regards MobyMod

How you know that? I know of at least one long standing member of the forum who'd had enough of it and hasn't been seen on the forum for a long time now.

I have had messages of support from three forum members who no longer post.
As I have mentioned previously I post in this forum at the invitation of my 'cruising buddies', who wanted their view aired, but did not want to enter the 'bear pit' themselves (not included in the three above).
The going around in circles is because some refuse to accept certain facts, for example that "will of the people" is just propaganda and simply not true. But give it a while and people will be saying it yet again.

[Jack Staff]

Brexit talks at ‘complete impasse’ on Ireland I’m told, with rupture between May & Raab over his ‘unilateral’ attempt get Varadkar to in effect scrap the backstop, viewed in No 10 as a ‘grade A blunder’. ‘People are sitting around the table clueless about the next move’

{Adonis}

My mind is boggling.

What are they going to do, sit and look at each other cluelessly until Mar 29th?

That's all they have left. Then they can blame the EU for everything that follows.

[Golden Princess]

" playful banter between the various Members " has this been confirmed by the members who have been subjected to this type of behaviour? I have complained and received a patronising reply from the Mods and was then ignored. Ok fine, you are the Mods, but that explains why I and I guess others have not bothered to complain again.

" My head says that remaining in the EU would possibly safeguard our economic position, but my heart will never agree with the federalist movement in the EU " - I think I would rather trust your head and not a feeling/emotion from your heart. But I have noticed just recently the words "federalist" and "Federal" have started to appear in this thread. I should be grateful if anyone could explain this to me. TIA

Just my heart feeling/emotion of this thread, and I only dip in occasionally and skim read, is that it goes round and round in circles every time anyone dares to question/comment/provide information/respond on one of the pro brexit posts. So guess I it would be best for no one to offer a difference of opinion in case it leads to a repetition of the obvious status of this forum. Although I feel in my heart you have successfully managed to frighten many away from commenting. Democracy.

[barney]

As far as I'm concerned, the elephant in the room is what the EU intends to become, and that is never discussed by either side.

At the moment, it's speculation as is almost all of the Remain arguments, but the EU intentions have been very widely publicized.

To pretend that the EU will stay the same is like trying to pretend that it it what we joined all of those years ago.

To gauge current opinion depends entirely on what question you ask.

How about

Leave the EU and determine our own future
or
Remain in the EU, be ruled by Brussels and continue to pay in even increasing amounts of tax payers money while collaborating in robbing eastern Europe of the youngest and brightest people and admitting more and more supplicant poor counties looking for hand outs.

Has a slightly different ring to it ?

If the UK does not take this opportunity now, it will be buried for ever and our descendants will question why we did not leave when we had the chance.