Brexit

[Gill W]

I'd imagine that most ardent Remainers will be chuffed as Punch with May's terrible agreement.
It basically keeps the UK in the EU by stealth - A perfect Brino

It's the UK's Hotel California moment.

Democracy can only be upheld with consent of the losing side.
The anti democrats have clearly won this one, should it go through.

For my own take, I'd be happy to leave in March with absolutely no agreements whatsoever.
Then, and only then, as an outside country should we entertain negotiating EU access to our lucrative market.

If you look about yourself, you'll see that most Remainers loathe this agreement. Remainers want to be in the EU - not this horrible deal.

I have used the Hotel California analogy myself, elsewhere.

Not sure who these alleged anti democrats are, but we all lose if this deal is voted through Parliament

[Onelife]

And what about the future sovereignty of Gibraltar?

Indeed.

Under May's withdrawal agreement, Spain would no doubt veto any trade deal in order to gain an advantage regarding Gibraltar.

Not to mention any other country with an axe to grind threatening their power of veto too.

Potentially, it'd take years for a trade agreement to be agreed, and all the time we'd be rule takers from the EU, unable to extricate ourselves.

So which side of the fence are you sitting now Gill?

I'm sitting on no fence at all .

I voted Remain, and still feel that Remaining in the EU is best for the future prosperity and security of our country.

The Withdrawal Agreement is terrible, leaves us worse off than we are now, and makes us rule takers with no place at the table to have our say. I can't support that.

Gill.....you have most eloquently discribed what a undemocratic bunch of wheeler-deelers we have been dealing with and yet you are still happy to jump into bed with them?. Unfortunately Gill, the boot has never been on our foot, they hold the power to control every aspect of our lives, and will continue to do so if we sit back and let them grind us into subservience ......that is how power works.

[anniec]

I'd imagine that most ardent Remainers will be chuffed as Punch with May's terrible agreement.
It basically keeps the UK in the EU by stealth - A perfect Brino

It's the UK's Hotel California moment.

Democracy can only be upheld with consent of the losing side.
The anti democrats have clearly won this one, should it go through.

For my own take, I'd be happy to leave in March with absolutely no agreements whatsoever.
Then, and only then, as an outside country should we entertain negotiating EU access to our lucrative market.

If you look about yourself, you'll see that most Remainers loathe this agreement. Remainers want to be in the EU - not this horrible deal.

I have used the Hotel California analogy myself, elsewhere.

Not sure who these alleged anti democrats are, but we all lose if this deal is voted through Parliament

Gill, as a Brexiteer I agree with you. I'm watching the parliamentary debate at the moment, and find myself agreeing with people with whom I've never agreed about anything in the past. Does anyone like this 'deal'? (even Theresa May is doing a pretty poor job of pretending it's a good idea).

[barney]

I'd imagine that most ardent Remainers will be chuffed as Punch with May's terrible agreement.
It basically keeps the UK in the EU by stealth - A perfect Brino

It's the UK's Hotel California moment.

Democracy can only be upheld with consent of the losing side.
The anti democrats have clearly won this one, should it go through.

For my own take, I'd be happy to leave in March with absolutely no agreements whatsoever.
Then, and only then, as an outside country should we entertain negotiating EU access to our lucrative market.

If you look about yourself, you'll see that most Remainers loathe this agreement. Remainers want to be in the EU - not this horrible deal.

I have used the Hotel California analogy myself, elsewhere.

Not sure who these alleged anti democrats are, but we all lose if this deal is voted through Parliament

100% agree with that Gill, but I'm pretty sure that it will be voted down anyway.

By anti democrats, I simply mean people on the losing side of any vote, who refuse to accept the result.

That is what has happened in the UK ref. Brexit.
It happened in the USA ref. Trump.
It happened in Hungary ref. Orban.

There were protests in the street the day after the results of all three.

How it is supposed to work is that the losing side accepts that it lost and endevours to do better next time.

Leave won, so you campaign with Jack Staff to rejoin when appropriate.

If the Tories win the next election, I'm masking up and taking to the mean streets of Bideford, in protest, Molotov Cocktails in hand.

Viva La Revolution.

I will not accept it until I get my own way.

[Gill W]

Gill, as a Brexiteer I agree with you. I'm watching the parliamentary debate at the moment, and find myself agreeing with people with whom I've never agreed about anything in the past. Does anyone like this 'deal'? (even Theresa May is doing a pretty poor job of pretending it's a good idea).

Theresa May tweeted her letter to the nation on Saturday night. Since then there’s been over 9500 responses. I haven’t read them all, but have only seen one supportive tweet in reply.

(Twitter handle @theresa_may if anybody wants to have a look)

The most frustrating thing is, inspite of what’s being said to her in Parliament and by the ‘people’, she appears not to be taking a blind bit of notice and is ploughing on regardless.

On the other hand, it’s all she’s got, as EU have made it clear there’s no other deal.

I have no idea how it’s going to pan out.

[towny44]

Viva La Revolution.

I will not accept it until I get my own way.

Barney, why are you so grumpy, if Gillingam are relegated it will only cost them a few thousand, if Town are relegated it will cost us millions.

[Gill W]

Gill.....you have most eloquently discribed what a undemocratic bunch of wheeler-deelers we have been dealing with and yet you are still happy to jump into bed with them?. Unfortunately Gill, the boot has never been on our foot, they hold the power to control every aspect of our lives, and will continue to do so if we sit back and let them grind us into subservience ......that is how power works.

We live in a dangerous world and we need close allies and partners.

In spite of all it’s imperfections, yes, I’d rather be in bed with the EU, than Trump and Putin

If the WA goes through, we will be in a subservient position. We will lose what we have now - a place at the table and the power of veto. I struggle to see how any Brexiter could support the deal as, for many, it’s about taking back control. Under the deal, we lose the control that we already have

[towny44]

Gill, as a Brexiteer I agree with you. I'm watching the parliamentary debate at the moment, and find myself agreeing with people with whom I've never agreed about anything in the past. Does anyone like this 'deal'? (even Theresa May is doing a pretty poor job of pretending it's a good idea).

Theresa May tweeted her letter to the nation on Saturday night. Since then there’s been over 9500 responses. I haven’t read them all, but have only seen one supportive tweet in reply.

(Twitter handle @theresa_may if anybody wants to have a look)

The most frustrating thing is, inspite of what’s being said to her in Parliament and by the ‘people’, she appears not to be taking a blind bit of notice and is ploughing on regardless.

On the other hand, it’s all she’s got, as EU have made it clear there’s no other deal.

I have no idea how it’s going to pan out.

Gill, she can't afford to call a general election because she is likely to lose, she can't seek another vote because that will split the Tory party permanently, and if she just resigns the poisoned chalice gets passed onto someone else who will have exactly the same problems. I suspect she might just go for option 1 and leave it to Labour to suffer the election wilderness which is likely to ensue for whoever is in power in March.
A bit like pass the parcel bomb!

[Manoverboard]

…. but I'm pretty sure that it will be voted down anyway.

Well I am not so sure.

I was also watching the ' Today in Parliament ' program this afternoon and a young MP addressed TM to ask for assurances about job security, she went on to ask if she ( TM ) would be prepared to discuss the matter with the Member for Islington. TM said that she would.

The Member for Islington being JC !!!

If I have understood this correctly then subject to a suitable outcome MPs from the Labour side of the House could be influenced to vote in favour of acceptance.

[Manoverboard]

…. Under May's withdrawal agreement, Spain would no doubt veto any trade deal in order to gain an advantage regarding Gibraltar.

The Spanish are in the same position now as they have been for yonks regarding Gibraltar, we will NOT surrender sovereignty and they know and accept it as shown by their attendance at the recent summit.

Why would they veto a trade deal with the UK, what would they do with all their left over vegetables and Rioja etc ?

Would there be a backlash where tourists would stop going there ?

It is not in the interests of both parties to secure a mutually beneficial trade deal, rather like the one we already have in fact.

[oldbluefox]

We just need someone to tell France and Spain they can't cherry pick, as Mr Barnier says. What's Mr Trump doing?

[Onelife]

I won't be placing any bets about Theresa May getting her deal through parliament but if anyone can do it she will. The poor woman is looking vulnerable which isn't surprising when you see how many pins Barney has been sticking into her

If it wasn't for the backstop issue her deal would pass through parliament without a hitch. Her deal isn't a terrible deal as some like to portray it and those who are doing so are in the main doing it for political gain. However, if the deal doesn't get the backing of parliament one has to put ones country first so a few more pins in Theresa's back should leave the door open for Boris and his Moggie friend to give the EU our final ultimatum...withdraw the backstop or face a no deal...the good news is that l've found bigger premises to store all of my mounting food reserves.

No begging letters.......Thank you!

Keep smiling

[Stephen]

We just need someone to tell France and Spain they can't cherry pick, as Mr Barnier says. What's Mr Trump doing?

I thought that myself Foxy. Where did he spring up from.

[barney]

We just need someone to tell France and Spain they can't cherry pick, as Mr Barnier says. What's Mr Trump doing?

I thought that myself Foxy. Where did he spring up from.

Trump was simply answering a question that he was asked.
Unfortunately May's deal will exclude the UK from doing an independent trade deal with any third country while still in the customs union.
As there is no unilateral end to this customs union, it means that the UK cannot do deals with others until the EU says so.
Trump is unfortunately correct, as is the Australian PM who has said the same thing.
That is why it is so unacceptable to most.
It doesn't matter how the PM tries to sell it, it's a proper stinker.

[Manoverboard]

Unfortunately May's deal will exclude the UK from doing an independent trade deal with any third country while still in the customs union …

In response to a related question ( about being able to enter trade deals outside of the EU ) in the House yesterday I thought TM said that it would be possible but only after we leave in March 2019.



ps … Donald Trump was correct, as per, as was Barney.


.

[Onelife]

We just need someone to tell France and Spain they can't cherry pick, as Mr Barnier says. What's Mr Trump doing?

I thought that myself Foxy. Where did he spring up from.

Trump was simply answering a question that he was asked.
Unfortunately May's deal will exclude the UK from doing an independent trade deal with any third country while still in the customs union.
As there is no unilateral end to this customs union, it means that the UK cannot do deals with others until the EU says so.
Trump is unfortunately correct, as is the Australian PM who has said the same thing.
That is why it is so unacceptable to most.
It doesn't matter how the PM tries to sell it, it's a proper stinker.

Hi Barney,

I don't like the idea of being tied into anything that isn't under our control to change but Theresa May has said that this situation is unlikely to arise. Why doubt her now when she is in the process of negotiating what the UK voted for?
It's alright for all the naysayers telling her she should have got this n that but do you honestly think we would have been able to call the shots had we gone down the WTO, Canadian or Norway route? .....no of course not, these deals need to be negotiated and would probably take longer than what is presently being negotiated. If we leave the EU via the chequers deal we will be in a far better bargaining position than we would have been had we gone down any of the other routes.

Our divorce from the EU was never going to be an amicable process no matter what route we chose to take. However, l haven't seen anything on the table that suggests other alternatives would keep the UK wheels turning while negotiating our exit out of the EU.... all that is on the table from Boris and Moggie are unsubstantiated assumptions with no time frame for what would inevitably be another compromise.

I can do you a job lot of pins for a tenner

[barney]

Too late for pins Keefy.
The damage is done.
She has signed it.
The only way now is a rejection by the UK parliament and to leave without a withdrawal agreement.
Standard WTO terms are much better than she has negotiated and we trouser £39 billion to boot.

I know it's after the event but I've said all the way through that the UK started in the wrong place.
The start should have been leaving in March 2019 without a deal and making full preparations for that.
Then, if something could be agreed in the meantime, great, but if not, we go anyway, fully prepared.
She has been conned by the Irish border issue.
Who was going to erect it?
Not us for sure.
Ireland? Nope!
The EU?
They wouldn't dare.

She has been badly advised, just as she was when calling the snap election.
She is wishy washy and will go down as one of the worst PMs ever (in my humble opinion)

[Mervyn and Trish]

So everyone arguing against the deal tell me what happens if MPs reject it.

[towny44]

Too late for pins Keefy.
The damage is done.
She has signed it.
The only way now is a rejection by the UK parliament and to leave without a withdrawal agreement.
Standard WTO terms are much better than she has negotiated and we trouser £39 billion to boot.

I know it's after the event but I've said all the way through that the UK started in the wrong place.
The start should have been leaving in March 2019 without a deal and making full preparations for that.
Then, if something could be agreed in the meantime, great, but if not, we go anyway, fully prepared.
She has been conned by the Irish border issue.
Who was going to erect it?
Not us for sure.
Ireland? Nope!
The EU?
They wouldn't dare.

She has been badly advised, just as she was when calling the snap election.
She is wishy washy and will go down as one of the worst PMs ever (in my humble opinion)

Barney, the Irish border issue is not about a physical border its about import and export documentation and whether goods meet EU regulations, and if the EU were not prepared to allow goods to flow across the border without documentation checks you end up with a hard border whether you like it or not. If this is to be avoided then an agreement is essential, because WTO rules would definitely require document checks. I don't like it either but just maybe Theresa knows a bit more than you or I.

[Onelife]

So everyone arguing against the deal tell me what happens if MPs reject it.

This is what happens Sir Merv



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

[Onelife]

Too late for pins Keefy.
The damage is done.
She has signed it.
The only way now is a rejection by the UK parliament and to leave without a withdrawal agreement.
Standard WTO terms are much better than she has negotiated and we trouser £39 billion to boot.

I know it's after the event but I've said all the way through that the UK started in the wrong place.
The start should have been leaving in March 2019 without a deal and making full preparations for that.
Then, if something could be agreed in the meantime, great, but if not, we go anyway, fully prepared.
She has been conned by the Irish border issue.
Who was going to erect it?
Not us for sure.
Ireland? Nope!
The EU?
They wouldn't dare.

She has been badly advised, just as she was when calling the snap election.
She is wishy washy and will go down as one of the worst PMs ever (in my humble opinion)

Barney, the Irish border issue is not about a physical border its about import and export documentation and whether goods meet EU regulations, and if the EU were not prepared to allow goods to flow across the border without documentation checks you end up with a hard border whether you like it or not. If this is to be avoided then an agreement is essential, because WTO rules would definitely require document checks. I don't like it either but just maybe Theresa knows a bit more than you or I.

[Onelife]

Unfortunately May's deal will exclude the UK from doing an independent trade deal with any third country while still in the customs union …

In response to a related question ( about being able to enter trade deals outside of the EU ) in the House yesterday I thought TM said that it would be possible but only after we leave in March 2019.



ps … Donald Trump was correct, as per, as was Barney.


.

Yes Moby....you and me the same....she was trying to say ....... "we can start brokering trade deals from March 29th"

l can do you a job lot of ear wax remover for a tenner.

[Mervyn and Trish]

So everyone arguing against the deal tell me what happens if MPs reject it.

This is what happens Sir Merv



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

Yes. That's what I thought. So why are most of the opponents claiming we can get a better deal? And how does that help the Irish border problem? I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the deal done but I do think it's the best we will get at this stage and is a basis to move forward in an orderly way.

[Manoverboard]

We had eleventh hour negotiations with the EU and the Tory Grandees will doubtless now be offering Peerages, Jobs, backing of private Members Bills and everything else they can conjure up to entice an overall supporting vote from their own MPs, I am presently quite optimistic that a number of Labour MPs will also vote in favour.

[Onelife]

So everyone arguing against the deal tell me what happens if MPs reject it.

This is what happens Sir Merv



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

Yes. That's what I thought. So why are most of the opponents claiming we can get a better deal? And how does that help the Irish border problem? I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the deal done but I do think it's the best we will get at this stage and is a basis to move forward in an orderly way.

Hi Sir Merv,

I think the fear of being kept in the backstop is the reason most are unhappy. Another of their concerns is that which revolves around access to EU markets and future trade deals outside the bloc. As l understand it we will have to follow EU rules 'as near as dam it' in order to ensure continued access to EU markets. Some MPs think this could impact on future trade deals outside of the bloc. I struggle to get my head round this, the EU as whole trade outside of the bloc on very favourable terms so what stops us following their lead and strike up our own deals that reflect the terms in which they trade outside the block....l can't see a problem with that.....perhaps Barney or towny can enlighten me.

You are right about the Irish boarder issue...WTO rule would require boarder checks.